Rookie 4l60e rebuild
05-07-2018, 04:49 PM
#282
TECH Junkie
Thread Starter
I over filled the trans a bit and the 2-3 limiter bump went away but it blew some fluid out of the top vent. Drained about 1- 1.5 quarts out and it is about 1/4 in. above full mark but now gets the 2-3 limiter bump but no fluid puking out the top vent. I may add just a half quart from here.....
05-07-2018, 05:16 PM
#283
TECH Junkie
Thread Starter
I guess I should just be patient and wait for a tune before I break something. Just figured it may have been a fluid issue due to the f- body dipstick being miserable to read.
I suppose removing the sonnax servo check valve and tightening up band clearance .040"+ from the previous build and tune could of thrown the timing off a bit?
I suppose removing the sonnax servo check valve and tightening up band clearance .040"+ from the previous build and tune could of thrown the timing off a bit?
05-07-2018, 07:33 PM
#284
So is it a cut loose or bind up. OR just the normal feel of a huge stall speed with a 4L60E....
If you go WOT until it shifts 2-3 that will tell you. Otherwise the 2-3 is always going to feel weird with a high stall converter, unless you play with the upshift pressures.
05-07-2018, 07:51 PM
#285
TECH Junkie
Thread Starter
I doubt it.
So is it a cut loose or bind up. OR just the normal feel of a huge stall speed with a 4L60E....
If you go WOT until it shifts 2-3 that will tell you. Otherwise the 2-3 is always going to feel weird with a high stall converter, unless you play with the upshift pressures.
So is it a cut loose or bind up. OR just the normal feel of a huge stall speed with a 4L60E....
If you go WOT until it shifts 2-3 that will tell you. Otherwise the 2-3 is always going to feel weird with a high stall converter, unless you play with the upshift pressures.
It does not feel like cut loose at wot. It does not free rev to the limiter then shift ( im assuming that is flare?)
2nd pulls hard and feels like it's still 2nd gear hitting the limiter once or twice then 3rd engages quickly. Any other throttle position the 2-3 is crisp and fast.
line pressure results:
idle 90-100 psi
reverse 130 psi
wot 225 - 230 psi
05-08-2018, 07:31 AM
#286
TECH Junkie
Any halfway decent scanner should be able to tell you if the pcm is commanding the shift so you can tell what's really going on
05-08-2018, 05:31 PM
#287
TECH Junkie
Thread Starter
Last night I reinstalled the sonnax servo check valve and it didn't get any better if anything maybe a tit worse but in general no change.
Maybe means the band is not kicking off fast enough with it getting a tit worse with the sonnax check valve.....
It definitely does not do a quick slip, just pulls in second till the limiter.
05-08-2018, 06:44 PM
#288
It's better to have a mild bind up than have a cut loose. Bind up on 2-3 is basically almost 4th for a split second.
To accurately give advice on this problem the tune needs to be known, like rev limiter rpm, wot shift rpm, wot shift mph is a start.
I saw the video, looks to be revving high, sure would like to know the rev limit.
That sonnax check valve is a mistake.
If you want to log something log shift time. It needs to be tuned to zero.
And the biggest thing, if you still have torque management, fing wrong.
IMO you need to post tune info or get it tuned, seems this thread is going nowhere but around in circles at this point.
I build and tune my own transmissions, even non computer controlled transmissions. Done it alot.
To accurately give advice on this problem the tune needs to be known, like rev limiter rpm, wot shift rpm, wot shift mph is a start.
I saw the video, looks to be revving high, sure would like to know the rev limit.
That sonnax check valve is a mistake.
If you want to log something log shift time. It needs to be tuned to zero.
And the biggest thing, if you still have torque management, fing wrong.
IMO you need to post tune info or get it tuned, seems this thread is going nowhere but around in circles at this point.
I build and tune my own transmissions, even non computer controlled transmissions. Done it alot.
05-08-2018, 07:06 PM
#289
TECH Junkie
Thread Starter
It's better to have a mild bind up than have a cut loose. Bind up on 2-3 is basically almost 4th for a split second.
To accurately give advice on this problem the tune needs to be known, like rev limiter rpm, wot shift rpm, wot shift mph is a start.
I saw the video, looks to be revving high, sure would like to know the rev limit.
That sonnax check valve is a mistake.
If you want to log something log shift time. It needs to be tuned to zero.
And the biggest thing, if you still have torque management, fing wrong.
To accurately give advice on this problem the tune needs to be known, like rev limiter rpm, wot shift rpm, wot shift mph is a start.
I saw the video, looks to be revving high, sure would like to know the rev limit.
That sonnax check valve is a mistake.
If you want to log something log shift time. It needs to be tuned to zero.
And the biggest thing, if you still have torque management, fing wrong.
I do spin it to 7,000 rpms but that's about all I honestly know. The way it feels it does feel like a tune issue from the converter restall at this point.
The sonnax check valve will be coming back out before it goes to my tuner. Just got antsy and threw up a hail Mary by putting it back in.
I do know torque management has been removed.
My previous builds and converter changes have all needed to be tweaked by tune. Just wanted to make sure it's nothing I did and that it's a tune issue. Previous converter was a 4000, this is a restall to a pt4400 which may be even a bit looser than that and thought I may of been able to get away without a retune.
05-08-2018, 07:13 PM
#290
TECH Junkie
Thread Starter
I do agree also it's going around in circles a bit at this point due to me being unable to provide needed information but I really do appreciate the time, effort and advice. I will remove the servo check valve and get it tuned at this point in time as advised.
Again, thanks much.
05-08-2018, 10:33 PM
#291
TECH Junkie
I know we all get antsy sometimes...but it's best to follow the safest path of change.
Like you've already mentioned, leave out the check valve, put fluid back to the proper reading, and make sure you keep an eye on a pressure gauge. Thanks for being of of the few that posts pressure readings. Make sure that after the tune, you keep an eye on the pressure and make sure its where it should be.
Like you've already mentioned, leave out the check valve, put fluid back to the proper reading, and make sure you keep an eye on a pressure gauge. Thanks for being of of the few that posts pressure readings. Make sure that after the tune, you keep an eye on the pressure and make sure its where it should be.
05-09-2018, 03:17 PM
#292
TECH Junkie
Thread Starter
I know we all get antsy sometimes...but it's best to follow the safest path of change.
Like you've already mentioned, leave out the check valve, put fluid back to the proper reading, and make sure you keep an eye on a pressure gauge. Thanks for being of of the few that posts pressure readings. Make sure that after the tune, you keep an eye on the pressure and make sure its where it should be.
Like you've already mentioned, leave out the check valve, put fluid back to the proper reading, and make sure you keep an eye on a pressure gauge. Thanks for being of of the few that posts pressure readings. Make sure that after the tune, you keep an eye on the pressure and make sure its where it should be.
thanks for the help and advice also. Just trying to learn and comprehend how some of this stuff works when ya get a little farther into it
05-10-2018, 11:32 PM
#293
TECH Junkie
Thread Starter
Question for ****'s and giggles.....
Looking at the sonnax servo check valve there is a check ball then a fluid port then the case. Is the purpose of the check ball to allow a little fluid to escape until the third accumulator is completely filled. Meaning not completely filling until the very last second/ max pressure where the check ball can seal in turn taking a tit longer for the band to release while the 3-4 piston is being applied?
Just trying to comprehend/ understand how it is supposed to work...
Looking at the sonnax servo check valve there is a check ball then a fluid port then the case. Is the purpose of the check ball to allow a little fluid to escape until the third accumulator is completely filled. Meaning not completely filling until the very last second/ max pressure where the check ball can seal in turn taking a tit longer for the band to release while the 3-4 piston is being applied?
Just trying to comprehend/ understand how it is supposed to work...
05-11-2018, 07:54 AM
#294
TECH Junkie
It's a metered orifice. Normally, the fluid for the 3/4 clutches, and the 3rd accumulator (which is the backside of the 2nd gear servo) is metered through the same orifice. There is another orifice often referred to as the "band release" orifice but for the 2-3 shift, there is a checkball that works with the band release orifice. TransGo actually tells you to open up this orifice to .093 (its the hole at the VERY top most of the plate, one to the right of the hole where they say "ok if already larger") Opening up this hole doens't do anything for the 2-3 shift because the checkball is unseated and will flow much more fluid than the band release orifice will, so the limiting orifice is still the 3rd gear feed orifice. It will however cause issues in different gears, especially on downshifts, so I leave it at .082. At the end of the day, the band release aka 2-3 accumulator has the same orifice restriction as the 3/4 clutch feed...this is what transgo points to as the "2-3 shift" hole in the separator plate.
So, since the fluid control for the backside of the servo, and the 3-4 clutches is controlled by the same orifice, but they need vastly different amounts of flow, in stock form, it can cause some timing issues.
The sonnax valve goes inline for the 3rd accumulator feed (which again, is the backside of the servo). When feeding oil to the backside of the servo on a 2-3 shift, the checkball in the sonnax part seats, and there is an orifice in the valve that limits flow. It's a quite clever way to add another orifice that the transmission didn't have in stock form. BUT, if it were just an orifice without a check ball, then things wouldn't exhaust properly on a 3-2 downshift. That's why the check ball is part of the valve. The checkball unseats on a downshift to allow fluid to exhaust.
To make short of a lengthy explanation. The sonnax valve adds an orifice where there wasn't one before. The checkball allows orificed flow one way and free exhaust flow the other way. In stock form, this helps "cheat" some fluid to the 3/4 by not allowing the backside servo to steal it all at once. Fixing some shift flare and quickening the 3/4 clutch apply, extending their life. HOWEVER once you start playing around with shift kits and changing separator plate sizes, throw the sonnax servo valve away because you've now left the boundaries sonnax designed the valve around, and it no longer helps the problem, but can hurt it.
So, since the fluid control for the backside of the servo, and the 3-4 clutches is controlled by the same orifice, but they need vastly different amounts of flow, in stock form, it can cause some timing issues.
The sonnax valve goes inline for the 3rd accumulator feed (which again, is the backside of the servo). When feeding oil to the backside of the servo on a 2-3 shift, the checkball in the sonnax part seats, and there is an orifice in the valve that limits flow. It's a quite clever way to add another orifice that the transmission didn't have in stock form. BUT, if it were just an orifice without a check ball, then things wouldn't exhaust properly on a 3-2 downshift. That's why the check ball is part of the valve. The checkball unseats on a downshift to allow fluid to exhaust.
To make short of a lengthy explanation. The sonnax valve adds an orifice where there wasn't one before. The checkball allows orificed flow one way and free exhaust flow the other way. In stock form, this helps "cheat" some fluid to the 3/4 by not allowing the backside servo to steal it all at once. Fixing some shift flare and quickening the 3/4 clutch apply, extending their life. HOWEVER once you start playing around with shift kits and changing separator plate sizes, throw the sonnax servo valve away because you've now left the boundaries sonnax designed the valve around, and it no longer helps the problem, but can hurt it.
05-11-2018, 02:41 PM
#295
TECH Junkie
Thread Starter
It's a metered orifice. Normally, the fluid for the 3/4 clutches, and the 3rd accumulator (which is the backside of the 2nd gear servo) is metered through the same orifice. There is another orifice often referred to as the "band release" orifice but for the 2-3 shift, there is a checkball that works with the band release orifice. TransGo actually tells you to open up this orifice to .093 (its the hole at the VERY top most of the plate, one to the right of the hole where they say "ok if already larger") Opening up this hole doens't do anything for the 2-3 shift because the checkball is unseated and will flow much more fluid than the band release orifice will, so the limiting orifice is still the 3rd gear feed orifice. It will however cause issues in different gears, especially on downshifts, so I leave it at .082. At the end of the day, the band release aka 2-3 accumulator has the same orifice restriction as the 3/4 clutch feed...this is what transgo points to as the "2-3 shift" hole in the separator plate.
So, since the fluid control for the backside of the servo, and the 3-4 clutches is controlled by the same orifice, but they need vastly different amounts of flow, in stock form, it can cause some timing issues.
The sonnax valve goes inline for the 3rd accumulator feed (which again, is the backside of the servo). When feeding oil to the backside of the servo on a 2-3 shift, the checkball in the sonnax part seats, and there is an orifice in the valve that limits flow. It's a quite clever way to add another orifice that the transmission didn't have in stock form. BUT, if it were just an orifice without a check ball, then things wouldn't exhaust properly on a 3-2 downshift. That's why the check ball is part of the valve. The checkball unseats on a downshift to allow fluid to exhaust.
To make short of a lengthy explanation. The sonnax valve adds an orifice where there wasn't one before. The checkball allows orificed flow one way and free exhaust flow the other way. In stock form, this helps "cheat" some fluid to the 3/4 by not allowing the backside servo to steal it all at once. Fixing some shift flare and quickening the 3/4 clutch apply, extending their life. HOWEVER once you start playing around with shift kits and changing separator plate sizes, throw the sonnax servo valve away because you've now left the boundaries sonnax designed the valve around, and it no longer helps the problem, but can hurt it.
So, since the fluid control for the backside of the servo, and the 3-4 clutches is controlled by the same orifice, but they need vastly different amounts of flow, in stock form, it can cause some timing issues.
The sonnax valve goes inline for the 3rd accumulator feed (which again, is the backside of the servo). When feeding oil to the backside of the servo on a 2-3 shift, the checkball in the sonnax part seats, and there is an orifice in the valve that limits flow. It's a quite clever way to add another orifice that the transmission didn't have in stock form. BUT, if it were just an orifice without a check ball, then things wouldn't exhaust properly on a 3-2 downshift. That's why the check ball is part of the valve. The checkball unseats on a downshift to allow fluid to exhaust.
To make short of a lengthy explanation. The sonnax valve adds an orifice where there wasn't one before. The checkball allows orificed flow one way and free exhaust flow the other way. In stock form, this helps "cheat" some fluid to the 3/4 by not allowing the backside servo to steal it all at once. Fixing some shift flare and quickening the 3/4 clutch apply, extending their life. HOWEVER once you start playing around with shift kits and changing separator plate sizes, throw the sonnax servo valve away because you've now left the boundaries sonnax designed the valve around, and it no longer helps the problem, but can hurt it.
Ever since I pulled the valve out originally I have been trying to picture how it works. My mild headache has magically went away lol.
Makes much more sense the way you explained it
07-02-2018, 07:53 PM
#296
TECH Junkie
Thread Starter
Update: Finally got around to getting my car tuned and it shifts amazing. We will see how long this one lasts spinning it to 7100 rpms. Tuner says my shifts are very fast, much faster and crisper to what he is used to seeing. The 1-2 shift is only taking 200 rpms.
07-02-2018, 08:21 PM
#297
TECH Junkie
Awesome to hear. How's the 2-3?
Remind me again what you settled on for clutch count, clearance, and orifice size. I'm on mobile and it doesn't want to play nice for me to read back through haha
Remind me again what you settled on for clutch count, clearance, and orifice size. I'm on mobile and it doesn't want to play nice for me to read back through haha
07-02-2018, 08:45 PM
#298
TECH Junkie
Thread Starter
I went with a 8 clutch setup. (6) .065" (2) .062"
.092" snap ring
.228" pressure plate
.225" Apply plate
Ended up with about .035" clarence
2nd apply is at .093"
3rd and 4th are at .125"
Set band clearance at .055"
07-03-2018, 07:25 AM
#299
TECH Junkie
Sounds alot like mrvedit's clutch setup for the 3/4's.
Glad your build is successful thus far!
Glad your build is successful thus far!
10-29-2018, 08:22 AM
#300
TECH Junkie
Thread Starter
Giving a usual end of the season update.....
Never made it back to the track but the transmission is still running flawless.
I will be switching to boost this off season so we will see how long it holds and what issues I run into with around 600+ rwhp.
Thanks again for the help
Never made it back to the track but the transmission is still running flawless.
I will be switching to boost this off season so we will see how long it holds and what issues I run into with around 600+ rwhp.
Thanks again for the help