4l80e reward thrust mod machine work
4l80e reward thrust mod machine work For those of you that have performed the mods in article below, how much should I expect to pay in machining costs as I don't have the equipment to do the machine work myself.
http://gearsmagazine.com/magazine/im...4l80-rebuilds/
http://gearsmagazine.com/magazine/im...4l80-rebuilds/
TECH Junkie
Joined: Jun 2008
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From: Nitro Alley
Should you wish to change the thrust path in the transmission the way that CK does...
Just purchase a complete assembled center support from him machined already and with intermediate piston, springs, retainer, and bushing.
They cost $189.00 or so.
Or you can ask him if you could make a core exchange for a stripped down center support machined for a bearing and trade your good stock center support...
That would be the cheapest option.
BTW I cut these center supports in a lathe in about 3 minutes time and would charge $5 per part... so look around at other machine shops as well.
Just purchase a complete assembled center support from him machined already and with intermediate piston, springs, retainer, and bushing.
They cost $189.00 or so.
Or you can ask him if you could make a core exchange for a stripped down center support machined for a bearing and trade your good stock center support...
That would be the cheapest option.
BTW I cut these center supports in a lathe in about 3 minutes time and would charge $5 per part... so look around at other machine shops as well.
Should you wish to change the thrust path in the transmission the way that CK does...
Just purchase a complete assembled center support from him machined already and with intermediate piston, springs, retainer, and bushing.
They cost $189.00 or so.
Or you can ask him if you could make a core exchange for a stripped down center support machined for a bearing and trade your good stock center support...
That would be the cheapest option.
BTW I cut these center supports in a lathe in about 3 minutes time and would charge $5 per part... so look around at other machine shops as well.
Just purchase a complete assembled center support from him machined already and with intermediate piston, springs, retainer, and bushing.
They cost $189.00 or so.
Or you can ask him if you could make a core exchange for a stripped down center support machined for a bearing and trade your good stock center support...
That would be the cheapest option.
BTW I cut these center supports in a lathe in about 3 minutes time and would charge $5 per part... so look around at other machine shops as well.
I was talking with one of the well known 4L80E performance transmission shops and they recommended that I DO go with the kolene steels instead of the standard steel and to use the raybestos stage 1 frictions instead of the borg warner high energy ones that I was considering originally. I explained that my car is a 3700 lb street car that will eventually be pushing 1100 hp and that I don't want every shift on the street to snap my neck. I do however want firm shifts when going all out with the car. That being said, I want this transmission to live and will be launching it at the track from time to time with no transbrake. How far do I need to take the upgrades based on the above?
Here were some additional things I was considering
1. Rollerizing the output by omitting the Thrust Washer & 3 Tang Selectable by using the K35400CA and Sonnax 34006-SP case bushing, installing the 34006-SP backwards.
2. Upgrade the direct clutch piston with the CK #4LCC/UDCPK
3. Rollerize the direct drum and intermediate/case support by sending my center support to CK to have him machine it and install a bearing as described above.
I was planning on getting all the parts below, but then I see most are all included in CK's master re-calibration kit 4L80ECC/MSRK which would be a different route of going dual feed than what I was originally planning. I assume I would use the spring in the CK re-cal kit and not need to purchase any of the following if I get that kit?
-Sonnax 34006-SP and K35400CA (not needed with 4L80ECC/MSRK )
-TH400 Direct Drum Clutch Piston Apply Ring Snap Retainer - U34562 (not needed with 4L80ECC/MSRK)
-Sonnax Transmission Boost Valve & Sleeve - 4L80E-LB1 (not needed with 4L80ECC/MSRK)
-CK 3rd & 4th accumulator delete 4L80CC/ADK (not needed with 4L80ECC/MSRK)
-4L80E upgraded direct piston clutch assembly 4LCC/UDCPK (not needed with 4L80ECC/MSRK)
I'm also considering the steel billet main shaft 4L8CC/BMS-1L and billet rollerized clutch hub 4L80CC/BFCH-A
Also I see that the Dura-bond bushing kit comes with the 3 teflon coating bushings part number TK-4A. I'm assuming 34030EA is the same Dura-bond kit but I need to confirm. In any case, it was recommended that I also use a wider stator bushing that doesn't come in that kit, and the part number for that wider bushing looks to be 34016-W.
Lots of options. Much more reading ahead of me.
Here were some additional things I was considering
1. Rollerizing the output by omitting the Thrust Washer & 3 Tang Selectable by using the K35400CA and Sonnax 34006-SP case bushing, installing the 34006-SP backwards.
2. Upgrade the direct clutch piston with the CK #4LCC/UDCPK
3. Rollerize the direct drum and intermediate/case support by sending my center support to CK to have him machine it and install a bearing as described above.
I was planning on getting all the parts below, but then I see most are all included in CK's master re-calibration kit 4L80ECC/MSRK which would be a different route of going dual feed than what I was originally planning. I assume I would use the spring in the CK re-cal kit and not need to purchase any of the following if I get that kit?
-Sonnax 34006-SP and K35400CA (not needed with 4L80ECC/MSRK )
-TH400 Direct Drum Clutch Piston Apply Ring Snap Retainer - U34562 (not needed with 4L80ECC/MSRK)
-Sonnax Transmission Boost Valve & Sleeve - 4L80E-LB1 (not needed with 4L80ECC/MSRK)
-CK 3rd & 4th accumulator delete 4L80CC/ADK (not needed with 4L80ECC/MSRK)
-4L80E upgraded direct piston clutch assembly 4LCC/UDCPK (not needed with 4L80ECC/MSRK)
I'm also considering the steel billet main shaft 4L8CC/BMS-1L and billet rollerized clutch hub 4L80CC/BFCH-A
Also I see that the Dura-bond bushing kit comes with the 3 teflon coating bushings part number TK-4A. I'm assuming 34030EA is the same Dura-bond kit but I need to confirm. In any case, it was recommended that I also use a wider stator bushing that doesn't come in that kit, and the part number for that wider bushing looks to be 34016-W.
Lots of options. Much more reading ahead of me.
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Kolene steels were designed by the OEM to soften shifts. Not usually what you need in a performance unit. The technology was adopted as a selling point by the aftermarket.
We have stock type steels at 3000+ HP living reliably in fairly heavy cars that are also driven on the street (Drag Week and other events).
Do they really hurt anything? No, we sometimes use them because we need a particular configuration that only comes treated. Are they an improvment? Not in my experience. Just marketing.
Frictions and type always get a lot of attention. Different builders have different preferences. It's usually an overthought of part of the build. Not terribly critical. The hydraulic pressure and valve body setup is way more critical.
What I've seen doing this for a couple of decades now..
If an OEM clutch is adequate, you gain the QC processes that go into that clutch being produced for the OEM. You're unlikely to have odd issues like delamination (why I quit using Alto Reds).
Again we've used the Borg Warner High Energy at 2000+ HP, not just in drag racing but street/strip and brutal off road applications. We have NEVER had a clutch failure that we couldn't attribute to inadequate pressure on the clutch. No delamination, no inconsistency. They just work. They aren't sexy, they aren't marketed, they aren't the cool new thing. They do have, just from my shop alone, 15+ years of experience of success.
We use some other clutches depending on combinations but we mostly stick with the BW HE.
I think the GPZ material is good, We use Blues in some really high powered stuff in select packs, etc. Again, with adequate pressure and control, you can usually use just about anything, especially at less than 1000 HP.
We have stock type steels at 3000+ HP living reliably in fairly heavy cars that are also driven on the street (Drag Week and other events).
Do they really hurt anything? No, we sometimes use them because we need a particular configuration that only comes treated. Are they an improvment? Not in my experience. Just marketing.
Frictions and type always get a lot of attention. Different builders have different preferences. It's usually an overthought of part of the build. Not terribly critical. The hydraulic pressure and valve body setup is way more critical.
What I've seen doing this for a couple of decades now..
If an OEM clutch is adequate, you gain the QC processes that go into that clutch being produced for the OEM. You're unlikely to have odd issues like delamination (why I quit using Alto Reds).
Again we've used the Borg Warner High Energy at 2000+ HP, not just in drag racing but street/strip and brutal off road applications. We have NEVER had a clutch failure that we couldn't attribute to inadequate pressure on the clutch. No delamination, no inconsistency. They just work. They aren't sexy, they aren't marketed, they aren't the cool new thing. They do have, just from my shop alone, 15+ years of experience of success.
We use some other clutches depending on combinations but we mostly stick with the BW HE.
I think the GPZ material is good, We use Blues in some really high powered stuff in select packs, etc. Again, with adequate pressure and control, you can usually use just about anything, especially at less than 1000 HP.
So after doing some more reading, I came across these instructions from CK which come in his 4L80ECC/MSRK kit which includes Pressure Regulator and Oil Pump Modifications,Overrun Clutch Housing Lubrication Upgrades, Direct Clutch Housing Upgrades, Dual Feed Direct Clutch Modification, Center Support Upgrades, Output Carrier Thrust Washer Upgrades,Rear Case Bushing and Thrust Bearing Upgrades, Valve Body and Separator Plate Upgrades
https://www.ckperformance.com/files/...ONS%20ebay.pdf
I also came across additional modifications from clinebarger. Obviously there is some overlap between what clinebarger has provided and what is in the CK instructions. So what becomes confusing is which mods should and should NOT be performed together. Take for instance the drilling of a hole .055” to .067” between the line pressure and converter charge passages. I read that if you do that, you should NOT run Sonnax lube regulator valve. To summarize some of what I've read from clinebarger (no pictures included, you'll need to search for the actual threads that clinebarger posted for those) Some very interesting things here. The reading and learning continues! I've come across some excellent videos on youtube.
As for those dura-bond bushings I was unsure about earlier where 3 of them are teflon coated out of the 12, 34030EA may be a cross reference part number that I came accross but that part number is NOT for dura-bond bushings. The correct part number is DB34030EA or TK-4A. One must be very careful with some of these online vendors who like to use cross reference parts and their descriptions are misleading. Such is the difference between a $15 part and a $60 part in the case of those bushings. Unless you are buying a full kit from a trusted vendor on here, you run the risk of getting something that isn't what you think it is. For example an internal wiring harness part number 350-0071 is NOT AC/Delco. It's ROSTRA. Much less expensive. Now with it being a wiring harness, I'm assuming it's OK to use but for the actual sensors, I'm going with OEM AC/Delco only. I've been burned too many times in the past on sensors failing that were not OEM quality.
https://www.ckperformance.com/files/...ONS%20ebay.pdf
I also came across additional modifications from clinebarger. Obviously there is some overlap between what clinebarger has provided and what is in the CK instructions. So what becomes confusing is which mods should and should NOT be performed together. Take for instance the drilling of a hole .055” to .067” between the line pressure and converter charge passages. I read that if you do that, you should NOT run Sonnax lube regulator valve. To summarize some of what I've read from clinebarger (no pictures included, you'll need to search for the actual threads that clinebarger posted for those)
Bleed checkball
Every 4L80E direct drum has a Bleed Checkball in it. Locate a TH400 piston that DOES NOT have a bleed as some TH400's used a drum bleed....and some used a piston bleed.
Interesting read: https://www.ckperformance.com/Files/...NTERCHANGE.pdf
Plastic Thrust Washer replacement
Use the Brass Thrust Washer that came from the Case Thrust between the Reaction & Output Carriers....Replacing the Plastic Thrust Washer (covered in CK instructions)
TCC Regulator mod
Sonnax drop-in TCC Regulator Valve part#34994-01K.....Avoid the disgusted feeling of your fresh unit falling out of lock-up hot/No lock-up!
AFL Valve Bore
Ream the AFL Valve Bore & install a oversized AFL. Trans Go part# 48-ACT-TL. Replace the AFL Filter at the end of manual valve bore, Be VERY careful not to crack the end cap during installation! Remove the shift solenoid closest to the bore plug as it gets in the way of removing the bore plug.
Setting End play locations
Set all FOUR end-play locations!
Total Rear Unit.....003"-.008" (Rollerized)
Reaction Carrier to Center Support......008"-.015"
Direct Drum to Forward Hub......003"-.008" (Rollerized)
Front unit.....005-.008" more/greater than the Rear Unit
Checking Front Unit end-play is a little tricky because the input shaft floats in the O/D Carrier..... use shims between the Carrier & Snap Ring to remove the play, Check & adjust end-play....Then remove the shims for final assembly.
Additional Direct Drum and Center Drum Notes
-Running a Wave/Cushion plate in the Direct Drum will help with abrupt 3rd gear shifts especially when you lift the throttle right before/during a 2-3 shift. Run TH400 Waves because the 4L80E Waves are known to break.
-Drilling the hole in the direct drum is a good idea even if not going with a brake. A .050" ish hole on the outer edge of the piston bore is a good size. Helps avoid centrifugal apply. Helps them release faster on a 3-2 downshift as well.
-Remove/omit the second from the top Sealing Ring on the Center Support. (covered in CK instructions)
-Omit the "Center Drum" lip seal in the direct drum. (covered in CK instructions)
-Plug the "Direct" Reverse Feed in the Case.....I do not like the thought of ramming a set screw into the Center Support, Loctite the set screw in place in a position where it does not interfere with the Support. The industry standard is to use a parking pawl cup plug. (covered in CK instructions)
-Enlarge the lube hole in the Overrun Clutch housing with a .125" drill bit (covered in CK instructions)
-Replace the Overdrive Sun Gear Bushing with a "Fluted" Sun Gear Shaft Bushing. A bushing kit will only come with 2 sun gear shaft bushings, You will need to purchase a third. (covered in CK instructions)
Additional Tips-Use a wave plate in the intermediate clutch in EVERY 4L80E/TH400 build that uses an iron direct drum. The intermediate sprag will thank you in the long run!! The easiest thing for you to do is run a late 4L80E intermediate piston which has a lower installed height that makes up for the wave that rides on the piston counter bore.
It's popular to omit checkball #9 when dual feeding the direct clutch to speed up reverse apply (Apply of the direct clutch in reverse). Drill the apply orifice (Arrow-43) to .086-.093" to speed up the apply & leave #9 installed. Omitting the checkball can cause a really rough reverse especially if the wave plate is omitted in the direct clutch. You can leave the apply hole stock & installed #9......Reverse could be a little soft however.
Plug the reverse feed in the center support, Keeps 3rd/Reverse oil from leaking between the Support & Case. A TV Exhaust checkball from a 700R4 works great. Most times.....The cast iron around the hole will raise up a bit after knocking the checkball in, File it down as it will keep the Support from sealing to the case!!
Check Reaction Carrier to Center Support end-play by stacking the unit up to the center support on the bench. Place your palms on the center support & lift up the reaction carrier....This is the end-play.Adjust to roughly .010" using Sonnax part# 34006-05 shims under the thrust washer.
Every 4L80E direct drum has a Bleed Checkball in it. Locate a TH400 piston that DOES NOT have a bleed as some TH400's used a drum bleed....and some used a piston bleed.
Interesting read: https://www.ckperformance.com/Files/...NTERCHANGE.pdf
Plastic Thrust Washer replacement
Use the Brass Thrust Washer that came from the Case Thrust between the Reaction & Output Carriers....Replacing the Plastic Thrust Washer (covered in CK instructions)
TCC Regulator mod
Sonnax drop-in TCC Regulator Valve part#34994-01K.....Avoid the disgusted feeling of your fresh unit falling out of lock-up hot/No lock-up!
AFL Valve Bore
Ream the AFL Valve Bore & install a oversized AFL. Trans Go part# 48-ACT-TL. Replace the AFL Filter at the end of manual valve bore, Be VERY careful not to crack the end cap during installation! Remove the shift solenoid closest to the bore plug as it gets in the way of removing the bore plug.
Setting End play locations
Set all FOUR end-play locations!
Total Rear Unit.....003"-.008" (Rollerized)
Reaction Carrier to Center Support......008"-.015"
Direct Drum to Forward Hub......003"-.008" (Rollerized)
Front unit.....005-.008" more/greater than the Rear Unit
Checking Front Unit end-play is a little tricky because the input shaft floats in the O/D Carrier..... use shims between the Carrier & Snap Ring to remove the play, Check & adjust end-play....Then remove the shims for final assembly.
Additional Direct Drum and Center Drum Notes
-Running a Wave/Cushion plate in the Direct Drum will help with abrupt 3rd gear shifts especially when you lift the throttle right before/during a 2-3 shift. Run TH400 Waves because the 4L80E Waves are known to break.
-Drilling the hole in the direct drum is a good idea even if not going with a brake. A .050" ish hole on the outer edge of the piston bore is a good size. Helps avoid centrifugal apply. Helps them release faster on a 3-2 downshift as well.
-Remove/omit the second from the top Sealing Ring on the Center Support. (covered in CK instructions)
-Omit the "Center Drum" lip seal in the direct drum. (covered in CK instructions)
-Plug the "Direct" Reverse Feed in the Case.....I do not like the thought of ramming a set screw into the Center Support, Loctite the set screw in place in a position where it does not interfere with the Support. The industry standard is to use a parking pawl cup plug. (covered in CK instructions)
-Enlarge the lube hole in the Overrun Clutch housing with a .125" drill bit (covered in CK instructions)
-Replace the Overdrive Sun Gear Bushing with a "Fluted" Sun Gear Shaft Bushing. A bushing kit will only come with 2 sun gear shaft bushings, You will need to purchase a third. (covered in CK instructions)
Additional Tips-Use a wave plate in the intermediate clutch in EVERY 4L80E/TH400 build that uses an iron direct drum. The intermediate sprag will thank you in the long run!! The easiest thing for you to do is run a late 4L80E intermediate piston which has a lower installed height that makes up for the wave that rides on the piston counter bore.
It's popular to omit checkball #9 when dual feeding the direct clutch to speed up reverse apply (Apply of the direct clutch in reverse). Drill the apply orifice (Arrow-43) to .086-.093" to speed up the apply & leave #9 installed. Omitting the checkball can cause a really rough reverse especially if the wave plate is omitted in the direct clutch. You can leave the apply hole stock & installed #9......Reverse could be a little soft however.
Plug the reverse feed in the center support, Keeps 3rd/Reverse oil from leaking between the Support & Case. A TV Exhaust checkball from a 700R4 works great. Most times.....The cast iron around the hole will raise up a bit after knocking the checkball in, File it down as it will keep the Support from sealing to the case!!
Check Reaction Carrier to Center Support end-play by stacking the unit up to the center support on the bench. Place your palms on the center support & lift up the reaction carrier....This is the end-play.Adjust to roughly .010" using Sonnax part# 34006-05 shims under the thrust washer.
As for those dura-bond bushings I was unsure about earlier where 3 of them are teflon coated out of the 12, 34030EA may be a cross reference part number that I came accross but that part number is NOT for dura-bond bushings. The correct part number is DB34030EA or TK-4A. One must be very careful with some of these online vendors who like to use cross reference parts and their descriptions are misleading. Such is the difference between a $15 part and a $60 part in the case of those bushings. Unless you are buying a full kit from a trusted vendor on here, you run the risk of getting something that isn't what you think it is. For example an internal wiring harness part number 350-0071 is NOT AC/Delco. It's ROSTRA. Much less expensive. Now with it being a wiring harness, I'm assuming it's OK to use but for the actual sensors, I'm going with OEM AC/Delco only. I've been burned too many times in the past on sensors failing that were not OEM quality.
Last edited by 5.7stroker; Mar 7, 2020 at 01:07 PM.