Good evening fellas ,,instructions that came with zpak for 4l60e say "use of load release springs is optional"- recommended for RPM above 5000
But they don't fit on account of the zpak external splines. Not that my RPMs will get that high ,I'd like to install the parts it was designed with if possible.
What'll be affected if the springs are missing if anything?
Thank you in advance

 

Its been a few years since I read the feedback for pro builders who used to be active here, but I recall them saying the Zpak basically melted in any setup with more than 400 HP. Who has experience with the Zpak?
I know that MaroonMonster and Vorteciroc were recommending the BW HD frictions just the other day.

 

Most of us found the single-sided Z-Pak to not hold-up as needed.

The formula for the Z-Pak friction material has also gone through several revisions...
The current revision of this friction material is available in a double sided friction plate (Like the OEM plates) and are sold as the GPZ clutches.

The Raybestos GPZ clutches do actually work quite well.
I can comfortably go back and forth between using either Borg-Warner High Energy frictions or using the GPZ frictions.

Due to the better ATF absorption... I still favor the B.W. H.E. frictions.

 

Also...

Some guys have gone back to using the load-release springs.

The Sonnax imput drum, the 4L79 drum, and of course GM all recommend and instruct the use of the load-release springs.
I decided to re-experiment with them on the engine run-stand about 2 years ago.

I would have to alter my separator plate orifice recipes/ calculations some-what in order to use the load-release springs...
So, I leave them out; and I have non-problematic great success!

 

My understanding is that the load release springs help ensure the 3/4 clutch is not dragging in 1st and 2nd gear. Therefore IMHO, unless you drive many miles in just 1st or 2nd gear, it probably won't make much difference.
I also noticed that the Sonnax input drum, which I have, recommends their special (longer) load release springs.
Also I once calculated that the 3/4 piston has about 4 sq in of fluid surface area; multiply by a WOT line pressure of 200 to 225psi would give 800 to 900 lbs of clamping force on the 3/4 clutch. Since the load release springs only exert 10 to 20 lbs of counter force, they don't really reduce the clamping force in a significant way. The piston return springs have a much higher counter force. (Topic for another day.)
Vorteciroc: I'm going to stick my neck out and say that 10-20 lbs of counter force is not enough to justify a change in the separator plate/orifice "tuning".

 

On that alone I agree with you...
Especially for mostly stock/ Trans-Go modified valve-bodies.

However My valve-bodies are far and away from stock with many circuits deleted and valve-train deleted and plugged.
The use of those springs changes my clutch clearance slightly, changes which return springs I use, and if I drill a bleed hole for the 3-4 clutch and/or what size the bleed hole will be.

This changes 2nd feed, 3rd accumulator, Band release/ 3-2 high-speed, and 3rd feed for me/ the way i build my valve-bodies.

There are several variables that change my valve-body configurations and separator plate orificing...
Including deleting the #2 and #4 check-***** and check-ball holes along with increasing the orifices next to them.

I have spent a few years tooling and re-tooling...
In order to seal big leaks in the 4L60E hydraulics, delete unwanted circuits and valve-train, along with installing a new section of valve-train and circuits on my personal transmissions.

 

Great conversation here guys. Highly enjoy trans talk

 

My .02

1) i feel like Gm put the load release springs in for a reason. They could have saved a mint all those years if they didnt have to buy them.
2) Sonnax goes through the trouble of including special longer springs for their drum kit.
3) 4L79.com also includes special longer springs for their drums too
Correct me if I'm wrong, But I would think that GM, Sonnax and 4L79 probably know a little more about this transmission than I or some back yard builders would.

Early on it was though that it was beneficial to delete those springs. It even says to in one of my build manuals. Then I have an update to that manual that states The original thought was wrong and they highly recommend reinstalling them.

Funny thing is, over the years I've had low mileage (40-50k miles or less on rebuild) units come to me and The ones with smoked 3-4 clutches 99% of teh time have one thing in common..... deleted 3-4 release springs.

I never really had to deal with 3-4 clutch problems. I've sorted that out long ago, the only problems I've really had is hard parts failing (got that sorted now) and the snap ring popping off in the release spring in the reverse input drum. I started tack welding those in place thanks to Maroonmonster.

I used to like the zpack. I've had good luck with it on lower end builds. I dont use them anymore now because a much better option is GPZ frictions and Kolene steels. The High energy are good units too and I'll use them if GPZ is on back order. My go to is GPZ and kolene. I also use Kolene steels in the forward and over run clutches.

I have exidy clutches in the 3-4 in my turbo car and they look (visually) the same as GPZ, They dont offer any other clutch option for my 4l79 drum which uses th350 based wider frictions. I really do like this drum and seems to hold high HP very well.

 

Lol, I just noticed you said the same thing i said before i said it. My lack of reading every post lol

 

The GPZ clutches are actually the same material (well...there's been yearly iterations...but you know what I mean) as the Z pak
Running Kolene is counter-productive in 90% of scenarios. The Fwd/Overrun would be a place I would NOT use them.
The 3/4's they are good.

The salt bath nitriding process for Kolene actually REDUCES their coefficient of friction. Both Static and Dynamic. AKA it makes them more slippery.
Usually, that's the exact opposite of what you want with a clutch.

The 60e 3/4 clutch is an exception. The 3/4's need to be kept quite tight for proper shift timing and it's the 3rd gear in the unit to engage. So, under normal duty, or WOT, the 3/4's need to slide past each other until they engage. Having the "slippery" nature of the kolene helps them to not drag as hard and glaze/wear when in the lower gears.

The load release springs help in this case also. They ensure the apply plate is pushed away form the bottom clutch, reducing drag. Keeping the 3/4's from heating up and glazing when in lower gears.
I include them in all my builds.

 

Absolutely GREAT post!!!

If you guys have been around long enough to see some of the 4L60E 3-4 clutch revisions that GM has made of the years...

You would see some of the different steel plate treatments that GM experimented with.
Primarily different types of PTFE compounds for the steel plates to add in a level of additional lubrication in a limited amount of space.

The salt-bath process for Ferritic Nitro-Carburizing is less common today; due to a more favorable Ion/ Plasma Nitro-Carburizing process of improving surface hardness.
I lost my faith in the Kolene brand process a long time ago... but that may have been caused by knock-offs that resulted in an incomplete process that flaked off.

 

kolene steels
Lindered steels
I've even seen mirror polished steels tried

Realistically...if GM spent 1/2 the time on making the 60e valve body less of a leaky pile of **** that they spent on clutch variations...the failure rate for the 60 would have shot way down

 

BTW, The load release springs absolutely fit with the zpak. You are indexing them wrong.....

 

My take on the kolenes is i've never had an issue from flaking. I havent had any frictions slipping. I feel wholeheartedly like they are an advantage over regular steels that warp easier. Just my opinion and my experience, I could be wrong...its happened a time or two in my lifetime..lol. I've noticed you can ask 10 people the same question about a 4l60 and you'll likely get 10 different answers/opinion/experiences.

 

Ya see...

Making Borg-Warner do more and more Research and Development; costs GM far, far less money than paying the Buick Division of GMPT to fix their junky leaky hydraulics!

LMAO!

 

and you'll be lucky if any of those 10 can build a 60 to take some power

 

Shiiiiit...If it weren't for the fact that I was still in grade school...even in the late 90's when GM started seeing all of these failures...I would have consulted and charged them a fair number to say
"hey, you guys know you have these endplugs with plenty of meat to add an o-ring right? Let's do that, and let's do the same for the boost valve sleeve. ya know...the 2 areas with the most leaks that are the most critical areas."

I tease I tease.
Thanks to Sonnax we can now salvage old valve bodies and keep them out of the scrap bin.

 

I know three of them that could lol. they are in this thread