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I'm personally curious how long this will live. I know what you said in the beginning, and you have some great guys giving you great information. We just have a difference in opinion, and that's what makes the world go around. At least it's your wallet. I've done this, now I have a 80e. I sincerely hope you have better luck than I have had with a 60.
Most of the local (Western Colorado) guys around me have this same preference. Hell I know a guy who put a 4l80e in his stock tahoe he uses for hunting..(this seems crazy to me) The 4l80e make sense in lots of situations, they are a good transmission for sure, but I dont think its necessary for this truck. Im trying to make a point by keeping the 4l60e and the 10 bolt rear axle. I cant tell you how many times Ive been told either one of those things will never last, but Im confident that this isnt true
Maybe I'll make a short post on one of my personal vehicles just to show a 60 isn't quite as fragile as some think
I've got a 2007 envoy denali that will soon be getting a small-ish btr cam and a TVS 2300 blower on 11-12 psi with e85
it's going to get a stock as stock gets hard parts 4l60e
07 has a factory hardened sun shell...so that's what it'll get
stock planets, stock reaction shaft, stock input/output, etc
I hope to make 500 wheel (all wheel drive) and I put probably 10-12k miles on a year and don't plan to change that even when the blower gets put on.
I think the OP's build list with all the fancy **** will last for a plenty long time if he can get the hydraulics right
I would appreciate it if you made a post. Sounds like a blast. I made the parts list with consideration of quite a few threads on here. Im sure most have more power than I will, but I was trying to factor the extra weight. I understand that my lack of knowledge and experience plays a factor in why I choose these parts. Im here to learn and hopefully avoid issues.
I would appreciate it if you made a post. Sounds like a blast. I made the parts list with consideration of quite a few threads on here. Im sure most have more power than I will, but I was trying to factor the extra weight. I understand that my lack of knowledge and experience plays a factor in why I choose these parts. Im here to learn and hopefully avoid issues.
MaroonMonster really hit home with me and made it a point when I was learning to build these that you need to concentrate on the hydraulics of this unit which is the key to making these live. And thats the point of his post above and the point hes trying to make. Yes, I over built mine as well but I over build everything I do when it comes to my hot rods. I did it because I could. But, I really honed in on the pump, rerouting and eliminating fluid passages in the valve body, orifice sizing, end play, and double and triple air checks. But really understanding why these fail and how to correct it is another main point. Its just not replacing parts. Clutch packs just dont "wear out" prematurely. Its cause and effect, and if you dont fix the cause you will have the same effect over and over.
I am just basing what I said on what I've seen, and my experience. I've seen guys buy $3500 60's, that become a serviceable item yearly. Granted, it was a high 8 second truck, but a 80 will have a longer lifespan on less parts for less money from everything I have seen.
I am absolutely not a transmission guy. You guys have al
l helped me learn and build what I've built and fixed, but imo, since it's nearly the same $, to rebuild each diy, I just don't see what the downside is to just building a 80.
But I'm still in for learning more on a 60.
I am just basing what I said on what I've seen, and my experience. I've seen guys buy $3500 60's, that become a serviceable item yearly. Granted, it was a high 8 second truck, but a 80 will have a longer lifespan YESon less parts for less money Not Always from everything I have seen.
I am absolutely not a transmission guy. You guys have al
l helped me learn and build what I've built and fixed, but imo, since it's nearly the same $, to rebuild each diy, Not even in the same ballpark unless you're using a junkyard 80 for the swap I just don't see what the downside is to just building a 80.
But I'm still in for learning more on a 60.
if building DIY...the cost of the swap parts ALONE will probably cost the same as all the 60e parts
When I swapped from a 60, to a 80, I moved the wires myself, the converter was a cost, but I sold my 60 converter, so in the end I was out about $300 on the converter, and while I originally modified my crossmember which worked, I did buy a Holley crossmember. I used a jump joint, and my driveshaft fit. So really, the swap cost was negligible in the end.
The $ I spent with Dana, was right around the same to build my 60 vs 80.
60 and 80 aren't the same length
You just used a conversion U joint?
2wd is easier than 4wd/awd...because then you have the transfer case to deal with. Input splines, adapter housing, etc
Did you find an early 80e and just reuse your 60e cooler lines?
Flexplate?
Tune/segment swap?
etc
sure it can be done cheap but to be done right there's usually cost involved in the swap
Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against an 80e swap...it's just that a majority of guys have no real need
The 80 I used was a 2001. I pulled it from the yard as a known good unit. It was about 3/4" or so longer, not as long as everyone said it would be side by side. Definitely wasn't the 2+".
I did a segment swap, I own HP Tuners, I know not everyone does. I guess I'm probably a little more extreme than most, I do it all myself or with a buddy, building, wiring, tuning, paint and body.
I do very much believe my 60 issues were probably hydraulic related. Building a 60, to me, was much more complicated. I don't know if it was less experience or just the nature of them. I know I didn't like how some of it was designed. I tried my best. I had 2 built by guys, and did 2, and that was over a span of around 5-6 years. My truck only puts down 400 ish @ 3800 at that time.
I do know they should have lived better, but again, I'm looking to see someone who regularly beats on a 500 wheel 60, it's longevity.
60 versus 80 swap, blondes versus brunettes. Perhaps we should all try those variations and we can then have more objective opinions.
Frankly there will never be a consensus on the 60 versus 80 swap issues. IMHO, the "cut-off" power limit for the 4L60E/4L65E/4L70E has increased over the years; 20 years ago it was probably 400 HP (or 400 ft/lbs), then 10 years ago a was probably 600 HP and now its approaching 800 HP (technically its Ft/Lbs) which matter). Of course engine power levels have increases similarly. Excellent after-market parts (e.g. Sonnax), pro-builders like Dana and PerformaBuilt, and "secret sharing" from pros like MaroonMonster have certainly made these advancements possible.
The 80 I used was a 2001. I pulled it from the yard as a known good unit. It was about 3/4" or so longer, not as long as everyone said it would be side by side. Definitely wasn't the 2+".
I did a segment swap, I own HP Tuners, I know not everyone does. I guess I'm probably a little more extreme than most, I do it all myself or with a buddy, building, wiring, tuning, paint and body.
I do very much believe my 60 issues were probably hydraulic related. Building a 60, to me, was much more complicated. I don't know if it was less experience or just the nature of them. I know I didn't like how some of it was designed. I tried my best. I had 2 built by guys, and did 2, and that was over a span of around 5-6 years. My truck only puts down 400 ish @ 3800 at that time.
I do know they should have lived better, but again, I'm looking to see someone who regularly beats on a 500 wheel 60, it's longevity.
i'm curious how far the yoke is in the transmission.
Progress has been a little slow on this project lately, but I have managed to work on it a little. So far I have replaced the 3rd accumalor with the superior switch valve, blocked the 4th accumulator using a 5/16 set screw. I finished the final cleaning on the case and started the assembly. I have gotten the low/reverse, reverse, overrun, and forward clurch packs put together to be able to check clearances. Im waiting on a thicker selective steel for the low reverse clutch, and a thinner backing plate for the forward cltuch.
I was also able to vaccum test the valve body. Im intrigued by the results, which has made me realize how important this process is and how often it is probably over looked. From what I understand anything below 15 Hg is a poor reading and needs to be addressed if possible.
With my vaccum testing results I am seriously thinking about blocking the 3-2 shift and control valves. With a low reading of 9Hg I cant help but think blocking it would help get rid of a leak. Are there any down falls for 1st time builder? From what I understand the biggest down fall is potentially having to pull the valvebody to fine tune the orffice sizing for the band release. Is there something im over looking?
As always thanks for everyones input. Im getting rather excited to finish the build to see how it turns out.
also...skip the alto band and get a wide borg or a raybestos
I'm betting the alto will work fine but if you're buying all this new stuff...buy the good stuff
For a while now...
The Parts distributors have been pushing "Alabama Bands" for a 2 5/8" Wide High Energy option.
I have never tried one.
The OEM 2 1/4" BW HE Band actually holds up great!
... I have never seen anyone offer a 2 5/8" BW HE Band.
Are you purchasing re-lined bands?
I also have never considered the Raybestos Pro Bands...
15 or so Years ago I experimented with them, and determined that i do NOT like the Kevlar Lining.
You like Kevlar? ...I don't feel it should be in a Transmission.
Last, I have had no issues with Alto (surprisingly... I don't care for their Performance Friction/ Clutch Materials) High Energy (Carbonite) 2 5/8" Bands.
Progress has been a little slow on this project lately, but I have managed to work on it a little. So far I have replaced the 3rd accumalor with the superior switch valve, blocked the 4th accumulator using a 5/16 set screw. I finished the final cleaning on the case and started the assembly. I have gotten the low/reverse, reverse, overrun, and forward clurch packs put together to be able to check clearances. Im waiting on a thicker selective steel for the low reverse clutch, and a thinner backing plate for the forward cltuch.
I was also able to vaccum test the valve body. Im intrigued by the results, which has made me realize how important this process is and how often it is probably over looked. From what I understand anything below 15 Hg is a poor reading and needs to be addressed if possible.
With my vaccum testing results I am seriously thinking about blocking the 3-2 shift and control valves. With a low reading of 9Hg I cant help but think blocking it would help get rid of a leak. Are there any down falls for 1st time builder? From what I understand the biggest down fall is potentially having to pull the valvebody to fine tune the orffice sizing for the band release. Is there something im over looking?
As always thanks for everyones input. Im getting rather excited to finish the build to see how it turns out.
I went back through a couple threads about blocking the 3-2 valves. I am absolutely going to block the 3-2 control and downshift valves. While I like the idea of blocking them by ommiting #2 & #4 checkballs and plugging the seperator plate, I think I will use some SS brake line and block the valves that way. I believe I will be able to get my inital orifice sizing closer leaving the checkballs active.
My parts came in and here are my current clutch pack clearances:
Low revese clutch
.040 (measures 1.200" from work bench to backing plate.)
Forward
.048
3-4 (4l79 drum)
.040
Reverse
.058
Disreguarding the 3-4, all the clutch pack clearances are about nominal using the ATSG book.
Progress has been a little slow on this project lately, but I have managed to work on it a little. So far I have replaced the 3rd accumalor with the superior switch valve, blocked the 4th accumulator using a 5/16 set screw. I finished the final cleaning on the case and started the assembly. I have gotten the low/reverse, reverse, overrun, and forward clurch packs put together to be able to check clearances. Im waiting on a thicker selective steel for the low reverse clutch, and a thinner backing plate for the forward cltuch.
I was also able to vaccum test the valve body. Im intrigued by the results, which has made me realize how important this process is and how often it is probably over looked. From what I understand anything below 15 Hg is a poor reading and needs to be addressed if possible.
With my vaccum testing results I am seriously thinking about blocking the 3-2 shift and control valves. With a low reading of 9Hg I cant help but think blocking it would help get rid of a leak. Are there any down falls for 1st time builder? From what I understand the biggest down fall is potentially having to pull the valvebody to fine tune the orffice sizing for the band release. Is there something im over looking?
As always thanks for everyones input. Im getting rather excited to finish the build to see how it turns out.
pretty sure anything under 18 hg is considered worn per sonnax literature that I've read. you can probably get by with lower readings on some valves but i like to see 18 or more on the half dozen valve bodies i've tested.
For a while now...
The Parts distributors have been pushing "Alabama Bands" for a 2 5/8" Wide High Energy option.
I have never tried one.
The OEM 2 1/4" BW HE Band actually holds up great!
... I have never seen anyone offer a 2 5/8" BW HE Band.
Are you purchasing re-lined bands?
I also have never considered the Raybestos Pro Bands...
15 or so Years ago I experimented with them, and determined that i do NOT like the Kevlar Lining.
You like Kevlar? ...I don't feel it should be in a Transmission.
Last, I have had no issues with Alto (surprisingly... I don't care for their Performance Friction/ Clutch Materials) High Energy (Carbonite) 2 5/8" Bands.
Thanks for the band info! Im considering using the Alto band for this transmission and save the BW HE for the 60e for my 90' K5.
I wish I would have known about not using Kevlar years ago. I had a 700r4 built for my 72' K-10 and I ended up choosing a kevlar band for it. Maybe one of these days ill go back through it and apply some of the information Ive learn from the forum.
pretty sure anything under 18 hg is considered worn per sonnax literature that I've read. you can probably get by with lower readings on some valves but i like to see 18 or more on the half dozen valve bodies i've tested.
Thanks for the clarification on that. Looks like ive got some work to do on this valve body. I had a feeling this valve body was going to be a little rough with all of the converter clutch and metal materials I found in the pan.
I decided to ream the PR valve as I had the reamers and figured it would give me an opportunity to see how much change in vaccum I could see. Im pleased with how it turned out. I also took the opportunity to compare the vaccum tests between the Transgo .500 boost valve and the Sonnax O-ringed boost valve. The trangso resulted in 16hg and the Sonnax was 23. This was partly why I choose the Sonnax valve.
Boost valve question:
- From my understanding of the fluid paths of the boost valve, it seems to me the reduced leakage from the O-ringed sonnax valve, could roughly increase line pressure about the same amount as the .010 bigger TG valve. Sonnax uses O-rings to help reduce leakage, and Transgo uses increased diameter to help over come leaks.
I stopped using the Transgo boost valve when I went to install one and the valve was so loose in the sleeve that I just threw it away and have been using the Sonnax o-ringed valve ever since.
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