Hello everyone,
I just wanted to start of by telling you Im new to the forum, and also a newbie to building transmissions. I have helped build a very mild 4l80e but thats about it. Ive been doing lots of research on the fourm and anywhere else I can get it, as Im very eager to learn. This 4l60e is going behind my 01 gmc sierra. It has a 5.3 with a mild cam that I plan on adding a turbo or LSA blower. It will stay around the 7-9 psi range as I dont want to take it off pump gas as its a daily driver and I use it for short trips like going fishing. I understand the weight of the truck is harder on the transmission components compared to a stripped F-body, thats why Im trying to take a few extra measure so it will live.

Also, I am very aware that a 4l80e would be the prefered method by most, but I am rathered tired of hearing the typical "4l60es are junk, just 4l80e swap it". No doubt the 4l80e is a great transmission, but I know how tough the 4l60e can be. Infact my Dad has a 700r4 behind his 462 roller cam big block. After almost 50,000 miles its still going strong.

Here is the start of my parts list. I have been trying to gather information from previous posts from guys like MaroonMonsterLS1, vorteciroc, PBA, and Kfxguy as they have a vast knowledge of these transmissions.

New GM rervese input drum
Sonnax Smart Shell
Sonnax 2.84 Input carrier (unnecessary, and a waste, I know. I mainly wanted to see the gear change in a real world appilcation. Ive seen the small difference on paper)
New GM Rear 5 Pinion planet (from the research Ive done, most say to keep the 4 pinion. But the set in my transmission is damaged/worn due to Milage and the heavy metal in the oil. A friend gave me several new hard parts and this happend to be one of them)
4l79 Input drum or sonnax drum (I tried to order a drum from mason over a week ago, and Im still waiting on a call back. In case I cant get a 4l79 drum I was planning on using the sonnax smart tech drum with a combination of borg warner hi-energy frictions)
Sonnax 2-3 shift valve
Sonnax billet reaction hub
Sonnax billet 4th servo
Sonnax billet 2nd servo
Sonnax sealed servo pin
Superior directional switch valve
Transgo 4l60e HD-2 kit ( I have one kicking around, I will probably use certain things from it, like the sperator plate, boost valve, and some of the springs, and maybe the pwm delete if I dont use the sonnax valve or a check ball to block the pwm)
Sonnax Sure Cure kit ( Clip,Plastic Checkball (8), 1-2 Accumulator Spring, Pinless Accumulator Piston Kit, D-Ring Servo Seals (5), TCC Apply Valve Kit, Pump Slide Pivot Pin, Oversized Boost Valve & Spacer .490" Factory Style, Check Valve Kit, 3-4 Relay Valve End Plug, Oversized Pressure Regulator Valve, Actuator Feed Limit Valve Kit, Forward & Reverse Abuse Bore Plug (2), TCC Isolator & Regulator Valve Kit.)
AC delco shift solenoids
Ac delco pillow switch
Borg warner EPC solenoid
Rostra harness with tcc solenoid
Ac delco 2-3 downshift soleniod
Front seal retainer
National steel bonded pistions
Sonnax reaction hub
Borg warner 29 element sprag
Borg warner low reverse sprag
Alto Wide carbonite band
Wide bushings where possible
Durabond bushing kit
Borg Warner forward, over run, reverse input, and low/reverse frictions
Standard steels (Raybestos?)
10 vane pump rotor in the 13 vane pump halfs. (I assume keep the 13 vane slide to match the pump halfs?)
Aluminum Accumulator pistions ( I have new ones but I havent decided if Im going to use them or the pinless ones from sonnax. It seems more logical to make the Accumulator pin the main wear place rather than the case? Of couse pinless means less chance for leaks)
Sonnax Stator with wide bushings
2600 stall converter, furnace brazed, and tig welded
Vaccum tested & repaired valve body and pump
Big extrnal cooler in conjunction with the factory cooler in the radiator.


Im sure Im missing quite a few things. Im also still trying to do more research on my own, especially on things like hole diameters for the sperator plate and clutch pack and band clearances.

Do I need billet input and output shafts? (Ive looked into them but they seem to be put of stock most places.)

I still have some parts to purchase. Does anyone have good tips on sourcing parts? Somethings are hard to find at the moment. Any fourm vendors for this stuff? I always try an support forum members when I can.

I am hoping to get as much information, Input, and suggestions on my 4l60e build as possible. Anything is greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
John

 

That parts list looks to have everything covered. A billet output shaft maybe a good idea. The main thing here is to seal up the 3rd circuit oil leak and the valve body mods, such as blocking the 3-2 Down Shift and 3-2 control valves inboard.

 

Thanks for the reply. I know the valve body and circuit oil leaks are almost as important as good parts.

 

I wanted to share more information, and a little from the tear down today. This is a GM reman tranmission that developed converter flare and a harsh 1-2 shift for a stock unit. I initially thought I might have a couple issues. Like a tired converter clutch (pwm still intact), and a few valve body bore leaks such as the isolator vlave bore. A few weeks ago, I pulled the pan to do some diagnostics and found a decent amount of metal.


This is what started the transmission build. I APOLOGIZE FOR THE PICTURES NOT BEING VERY GREAT!

Before tearing it down, I put an indicator on the input shaft to check the endplay. I remembered @vorteciroc posting about people not checking end play before tare down. I got a reading of .022" I believe the spec is .015"-.030". My brain tells me this might be on the looser side considering the oil and metal between things such as clutches and bearing surfaces?

After diving in further, I found the input drum has been rubbing the inside of the sunshell. Im not exactly sure the main casue of this was. Failing bearing? The splines on the sun gear and sun shell being worn? The sun gear had a pretty small amount of wear, but the splines on the shell seem a little strange to me.






I also found the overrun hub was torn up pretty bad where sits against the sprag. (I forgot to take a picutre.) The next area of concern is the case. I didnt expect the case lugs to be perfect but there seems to be a decent burr. Do you guys think this is enough to warrant a new case or just clean the burrs off?




The pump halves are my last bigger concern. I noticed some chatter marks and a small groove near where the rotor sits. Im guessing it might be a good idea to purchase new or find a better core? The rotor seems to have an okay amount of bluing.





I forgot to take some pictures of clutches, band, and other areas. They all seemed pretty good to me. No signs of excessive heat on the steels and the frictions looked pretty good. I will try and get a few pictures later.

5 pinion platent question
I know this has been discussed to a great extent. I can see why the cheaper powdered metal would be a concern, and also lubrication concerns, but if GM was trying to be cheaper, why did they only put 5 pinions in there "preformance geared" applications only? Maybe I have missed something, but I have yet to see that question asked.


Thanks in advance for the help and suggestions. Im still working out things in my initial post like vlave body changes, billet shafts, ect. I feel pretty decnt about the progress and some more knowledge ive picked up.

Thanks,
John

 

If you try to get into the weeds with the "how" or "why" GM did alot of things do different units over the years...you'll go crazy

Don't assume that just because GM did it...that it was smart

I can give you a basket full of examples on things that were fine one year...then they changed it and that change caused issue...but they never resolved or changed back.

5 pinion planets are worse all around. And if you break 4 pinions and can't get anything to live other than a 5 pinion, let me know because you'll be the first person with that experience that I've talked to
@Kfxguy is the resident 5 pinion fan and would probably share his $0.02
At the end of the day...you can make a 4 or 5 pinion work
but I've yet to find someone that has a 4 pinion fail from power or tq...every planet failure I've seen would take out a planet regardless of pinion count.

 

Thats a good point, thank you. Im considering not using that 5 pinion rear planet and finding or rebuilding a 4 pinion. I would prefer not to have less lubrication with the 5 pinion like you have mentioned in other threads. Have you ever seen a rear plant fail due to lack of lubrication? My big goal is reliability at this power and weight.

 

Thats the main failure is lack of lube.

Also, do your self a favor and dont try to rebuild one. Just find a nice used one but make sure you check end play on each planet as well as side to side on the needle bearings. Also you can check the captured Torrington bearing by taking the sun gear, putting it inside the gear set. Then press really hard down on the bearing while turning it with your hand back and forth. You can tell if something is going wrong with the bearing or not.

 

Thanks for the information! Sounds like it will save me a headache. Is there any modifications that is worth doing to increase lubrication to the planets? I read a thread where you and @MaroonMonsterLS1 had mentioned stacking pistions to block the 4th Accumulator actually blocked a lube passage for the rear planets. Im very gald I found this as that was going to be my method. Looks like I will be taping it for a set screw. Thanks you guys.

On another note, Ive read your build thread a couple times. Its been a big help! I make more and more notes each time I look through it. Are you still enjoying it? Do you think your orfice sizing and clearances for things such as, the servo pin and clutch packs are suitable for my build? Im using a lot of similar parts in my build.

Thanks
John

 

There is one method you can do that although the theory seems beneficial there really isnt solid proof it actually helps. On both upper and lower sun gears, you can cut 4-5 notches on the ends surfaces where they press onto the captured bearings in the carriers. Typically called "lube slots". Again, theory is there just not "proven" it actually helps. But, it doesnt hurt anything. I didnt do it to mine

Glad my thread is helping. That was the main point of making it. As far as the operation of it, I literally cant be more pleased on how its working out. Part throttle, smooth and quick. Lay into it, quick and firm.

Regarding your question on orifice sizing, I wouldnt recommend all the sizing in my specs. Im also not one to recommend orifice sizing as im not afraid to admit im not that experienced. Just FYI, I omitted #2 check ball and plugged the hole for 3rd accumulation. Basically it its a fixed orifice for apply and release of 3rd accumulation oil. Not recommended for novice builds. But, if you do your research there is good recommendations for orifice sizing for many build setups similar to yours.

Regarding clearances, you can probably get pretty close I would say. Clutch clearance on reverse, forward, low/rev you can set to factory specs essentially. Regarding total end play, I would keep it on the tighter side considering the weight of the application you are running.

Last, not sure what assembly manual you choose to follow but find the free PDF version from ATRA on the web and download it. To me, its the best assembly manual to use

 

Thanks for the information! Im glad to hear that you are still pleased with your build. I will do more research on orifice sizing, but Im glad to have your specs as a loose reference, keeping in mind you omitted the #2 check ball. Im assuming since you made the 3rd accumulation a fixed orifice, this was the reason for such a big orifice size compared to the rest of the oiling circurs in the sperator plate?

Thanks for letting me know about the assembly manual. I had purchased an ATSG a while ago l, but I will definitely go download the ATRA manual as well.

 

Yes

Please dont hesitate to ask questions in your thread. Post up what you have come up with, with the build you intend to do and im sure the more experienced guys will chime in and give their recommendations

 

Alright, Ive got a couple parts questions:

- are the aftermarket 10 vane pump rotors okay to use? Im having a hard time finding new rotor, besides aftermarket or the TCI billet one. Maybe it would be okay to find a good used one if the aftermarket one is not a good idea?

- Any quality differences between the National bonded pistions vs something like transtec pistions?

I was finally able to get a hold of a sonnax billet input shaft. Im still looking for an output shaft. Ive called a couple places that claim to have them instock on their website dont actually have any.

 

13v rotors are still ok to use, but 10v is ideal. If you cant find 10v you will be just fine running a 13v. Just make sure your converter spacing is correct and keep your pump pressures in check and it will be fine

Regarding molded pistons, these times you probably just stick to what you can get to be honest. They will be fine

I usually have good luck with Rock Auto. But I checked and the 2WD output shaft is also out of stock. They have 4WD though. And yikes have they gone up in price

 

I know I'm late to the party but damn...you must hate your wallet

this has got to be the most overkill 450hp transmission build I've ever seen

If you've got the coin, no problem with your parts list.
With the exception of the sonnax 2nd gear servo...I'd stick with the corvette ratio servo. Usually it is a good balance of holding power and shift release timing

also...skip the alto band and get a wide borg or a raybestos
I'm betting the alto will work fine but if you're buying all this new stuff...buy the good stuff

Lastly...mixing the HD2 and the sure cure is a bad idea

you really don't need either TBH

 

Thanks! I might just go with the 13 vane rotor. I ordered an AC Delco pump kit from rock auto for a 160. Im not surper comfortable with the gooves in mine. Plus I didnt think it was too bad of price. Maybe Ill just stick the transgo boost valve and PR spring in it and call it good.

Thanks again

 

I replied in bold. I do want to thank you for the reply. I will work on a detailed list for valvebody changes so I dont make a poor decision and cant fix it before its too late.

 

We can save on some of the things on your list. But they wont hurt you.

Do you have a way to vacuum test the VB and pump??

 

I purchased the sonnax vaccum tester. I also have a couple of thier reamers in case I need to make a repair.

 

I'm personally curious how long this will live. I know what you said in the beginning, and you have some great guys giving you great information. We just have a difference in opinion, and that's what makes the world go around. At least it's your wallet. I've done this, now I have a 80e. I sincerely hope you have better luck than I have had with a 60.

 

Maybe I'll make a short post on one of my personal vehicles just to show a 60 isn't quite as fragile as some think

I've got a 2007 envoy denali that will soon be getting a small-ish btr cam and a TVS 2300 blower on 11-12 psi with e85

it's going to get a stock as stock gets hard parts 4l60e

07 has a factory hardened sun shell...so that's what it'll get
stock planets, stock reaction shaft, stock input/output, etc

I hope to make 500 wheel (all wheel drive) and I put probably 10-12k miles on a year and don't plan to change that even when the blower gets put on.
I think the OP's build list with all the fancy **** will last for a plenty long time if he can get the hydraulics right