WOT in OD
#41
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25-30 is usually 3-1, which is very fun indeed.
The 3-2/4-2 is what you get anywhere from about 30 mph up to 75, depending on your specific setup.
nrayome98TA: The factory speedometer is definately not known to be accurate. They usually aren't too bad, but you never know for sure and the faster you go the more the speedo tens to be off. But 12 mph? It's certainly possible it's off by 12 mph, but I would like to think it's more accurate than that.....however considering that you have swapped gears and edited the PCM I wouldn't worry about if the only thing "off" is the indicated speed.
The tach seems accurate, I know mine is, but in lower gears it often lags behind.
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nrayome98TA: The factory speedometer is definately not known to be accurate. They usually aren't too bad, but you never know for sure and the faster you go the more the speedo tens to be off. But 12 mph? It's certainly possible it's off by 12 mph, but I would like to think it's more accurate than that.....however considering that you have swapped gears and edited the PCM I wouldn't worry about if the only thing "off" is the indicated speed.
The tach seems accurate, I know mine is, but in lower gears it often lags behind.
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when in either gear (3rd or 4th) the 3-4 clutch pack is engaged correct? Than why is a 3-2 worse than a 4-2 if both have to release the 3-4 clutch pack and apply the 2nd gear band?
ALso, i may not be a "reputable" trans builder, but it appears to me that if your cruising around in 4th @ 50mph around 1500-1600rpms for example, and downshift to second, you are putting more stress (thus increase in heat generation/absorption) on the 2nd gear band than if you went to 3rd gear?
Josh99ta, have you ever seen a 2nd gear band before and he amount of fiction material on it? The last time i replaced my trans, that was the thing that went!! IT was completely fried. Now, why i did that, im not usre. I do know that i, and countless others, have spent to much money and time on this stuff to just go out and trash on our rides. I for one and not to worried but i appreciate my investement and enjoy the other qualities of my ride, not just the tow ride to the trans place for a "refresh kit"
Of course, this is all IMO and it may be interpreted in may ways. Again, i may not be a trans builder but i have seen a few trans being taken apart and have seen a few of the possible weak links in the trans.
Now, i drive fast when ever possible. I just dont stand onthe go pedal going at every occasion. I usually kick down enough to go into third and hammer the go pedal.
Also,
ALso, i may not be a "reputable" trans builder, but it appears to me that if your cruising around in 4th @ 50mph around 1500-1600rpms for example, and downshift to second, you are putting more stress (thus increase in heat generation/absorption) on the 2nd gear band than if you went to 3rd gear?
Josh99ta, have you ever seen a 2nd gear band before and he amount of fiction material on it? The last time i replaced my trans, that was the thing that went!! IT was completely fried. Now, why i did that, im not usre. I do know that i, and countless others, have spent to much money and time on this stuff to just go out and trash on our rides. I for one and not to worried but i appreciate my investement and enjoy the other qualities of my ride, not just the tow ride to the trans place for a "refresh kit"
Of course, this is all IMO and it may be interpreted in may ways. Again, i may not be a trans builder but i have seen a few trans being taken apart and have seen a few of the possible weak links in the trans.
Now, i drive fast when ever possible. I just dont stand onthe go pedal going at every occasion. I usually kick down enough to go into third and hammer the go pedal.
Also,
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Originally Posted by cablebandit
on 26.1" tires my car does 150 in 3rd (3.23 gear) with the converter locked at 7000rpms so no need to do a wot 3-4 shift. As far as downshifting, i never just floor it while in o/d....i'll gas it enuff to kick down into 3rd and then mat it. I assume you guys are roll racing though or something. i broke either a sprag or planetary...either way it was a hard part failure but my 3/4 clutch pack was still going strong ![Happy](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_stretch.gif)
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This I'll believe, hard parts could fail in the event of a downshift like that, but just going WOT and having it be hard enough to cause damage on the clutch packs, not likely IMO. I think it's just a myth that someone who didn't know what they were talking about started and then it spread like wildfire.
Sure it causes stress, but so does WOT shifting any time you go through it. Whats the point of driving the car hard at all if you're scared. The KNOWN weak parts are the 3-4 clutch packs and the sun shell thing. Past that you shouldn't have much to worry about with your tranny.
Tell me this, how many times have you heard of someone losing 2nd in an A4 car but still having 3 and 4? I never have. 4 always fails first, 3 is next to go. A 4-2 or 3-2 downshift is nothing in comparison IMO. The extra events involved in a 3-2 downshift over a 4-2 downshift just tells me that you might be quicker if you leave it in 4 and then nail it from a roll, but as far as more wear and tear goes, I think the difference in minimal in comparison to the other known weak spots, i.e. the weak links will fail before you have to worry about the minimal amount of wear that occurs on a 4-2 or 3-2 downshift.
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Josh99ta, have you ever seen a 2nd gear band before and he amount of fiction material on it? The last time i replaced my trans, that was the thing that went!! IT was completely fried.
I know the hell I gave my stock tranny, and for yours to dump 2nd, I cant fathom what you'd have to do to accomplish something like that. Thats why I feel all this 4-2 and 3-2 fear is a bunch of regurgitated garbage that has no solid backing behind it.
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Originally Posted by DannoWS6
I've always raced in "D" (Firebird OD), works for me.
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So if we only throttle our built trannies enough to make them kick down to a lower gear and THEN floor it, we should be okay at the lower speeds? I don't plan on running WOT at 140+ again anyway. For instance: driving 45 mph, want to race, give it 3/4 throttle initially to get it to kick down to 1st or 2nd, then go WOT? I'm sure this can happen a lot quicker than it sounds.
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Originally Posted by CamaroSS
That is not possible unless you have modified the internal gearing of the tranny....should still be in the low 130s high 120s...
My friends has 4.10s in his A4 TA and his car runs out of gear in 3rd at 119mph, so a 3.73 should still be in the 120s if not the low 130s.
My friends has 4.10s in his A4 TA and his car runs out of gear in 3rd at 119mph, so a 3.73 should still be in the 120s if not the low 130s.
Here's some terminal speeds in gear, according to the calculator.
Assuming 245/50/15 tyres (approx 26")
Internal gear ratios of:
1st - 3.06:1
2nd - 1.62:1
3rd/D - 1.00:1
4th/OD - 0.70:1
And a red line of 6000rpm
2.73 Gears:
RPM-1st-2nd-3rd-4th
5500 50 95 154 220
5600 51 97 157 224
5700 52 98 159 228
5800 53 100 162 232
5900 54 102 165 236
6000 55 104 168 240
3.73 Gears:
RPM-1st-2nd-3rd-4th
5500 37 69 113 161
5600 37 71 115 164
5700 38 72 117 167
5800 39 73 119 169
5900 39 74 121 172
6000 40 76 123 175
4.10 Gears:
RPM-1st-2nd-3rd-4th
5500 33 63 102 146
5600 34 64 104 149
5700 35 65 106 152
5800 35 67 108 154
5900 36 68 110 157
6000 36 69 112 160
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Most of you think shifting from third to fourth is hard on the 3-4 clutch.
The clutch is already engaged, to get fourth it just applies a band.
The 2-3 shift is what kills the 3-4 clutch.
No one mentioned this, thats why is total bullshit, no one even understands how the damn thing works.
As for these posts like this about people being so scared to hurt their transmission, get out of performance cars, buy yourself a geo and drive like an old lady. Or keep your f-body and drive it, driving it also increases the chance of someone wrecking into you too so maybe you should keep it parked.
The clutch is already engaged, to get fourth it just applies a band.
The 2-3 shift is what kills the 3-4 clutch.
No one mentioned this, thats why is total bullshit, no one even understands how the damn thing works.
As for these posts like this about people being so scared to hurt their transmission, get out of performance cars, buy yourself a geo and drive like an old lady. Or keep your f-body and drive it, driving it also increases the chance of someone wrecking into you too so maybe you should keep it parked.
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Originally Posted by jxaxsxoxn
Most of you think shifting from third to fourth is hard on the 3-4 clutch. The clutch is already engaged, to get fourth it just applies a band. The 2-3 shift is what kills the 3-4 clutch. No one mentioned this, thats why is total bullshit, no one even understands how the damn thing works.
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Originally Posted by jxaxsxoxn
As for these posts like this about people being so scared to hurt their transmission, get out of performance cars, buy yourself a geo and drive like an old lady. Or keep your f-body and drive it, driving it also increases the chance of someone wrecking into you too so maybe you should keep it parked.
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in all honesty, im in total agremment. Our rides are high performance thus parts should be built up to spec. From my understanding, the lack of line pressure thus less lubricating fluid causes the the clutches to wear prematurely. ALso the added amount of work produced in a 2-3 shift, since the band is released and engages the 3-4 pack, in conjuction with less oil, is wat ruins it. THat s why "quick reacting" springs and ported pumps are used to keep our 4l'z alive, among other related parts.
MAybe ya'll misunderstood me, but i never statd that a 4-2 is really bad on the 4l. I just said that i suggested avoiding it. You see, knowing that a 3-2 is harsh on the trans, i fuigure if your cruising in 4th a slam on the trigger, your increasing the load on the 2 gear band (or 2-4 band) since you were traveling at a lower rpm thus generating less heat and requiring more line pressure than wat is being used. A good 2-4 band is nice but i feel it wont hold as much as a 3-4 pack becaue it has a less gripping area or clutch area than a 3-4 clutch pack. However, if you were cruising at a higher rpm, 3rd for example, the temps will be up, pressure will be thus requiring less time to generate the appropriate amount of pressure to get the job done. (I might be wrong since the band should remain engaged when going from a 4-2 thus minimizing the amount of work needed but unsure..... However, to me tha amount of strain on the trans on a 4-2 is greater than on a 3-2, of course in deducting this soly on trns temp a line pressure, not so much on work, though more work will generate more friction, equaling to more heat...)
Anyways, I understand that this is a touch subject that is left in the dark and without a final word from one that we can ALL trust. "It hasnt been carved in stone..." This usually ends up in theories and asumptions. All that i have ever stated is that i understand that a camaro is a sports car and that it should be riden like one. But i also enjoy just cruisin'. There isnt to many places down here in miami where i can find a good race and to be honest, im very selective of when i smash the pedal. (that is until i i get that uncontrolable feeling to shut these rice fools down on occasions or the the occasional evo, STI, AMG E55....Whatever.
BAsically, keeping the trans in the OD or D for the T/A is the best way to drive these trans because they werent really meant to be shifted manually. I just feel that since im on my third trans rebuild (408ci has maybe something to do with it and a bad line pressure sensor, which fried EVERTHING!!!!! not one piece of clutch material was left untouched!!!), that im more aware of the limitations and act accordingly. Worried that it my break, hey, **** happens, parts break, but avoiding a broken part is also a choice we all have.
Sorry for the long post, just had all of these words built up......
My advice is use common sense and read as much as you can and YOU make your decisons on what YOU feel is best for YOU ride...
Angel
MAybe ya'll misunderstood me, but i never statd that a 4-2 is really bad on the 4l. I just said that i suggested avoiding it. You see, knowing that a 3-2 is harsh on the trans, i fuigure if your cruising in 4th a slam on the trigger, your increasing the load on the 2 gear band (or 2-4 band) since you were traveling at a lower rpm thus generating less heat and requiring more line pressure than wat is being used. A good 2-4 band is nice but i feel it wont hold as much as a 3-4 pack becaue it has a less gripping area or clutch area than a 3-4 clutch pack. However, if you were cruising at a higher rpm, 3rd for example, the temps will be up, pressure will be thus requiring less time to generate the appropriate amount of pressure to get the job done. (I might be wrong since the band should remain engaged when going from a 4-2 thus minimizing the amount of work needed but unsure..... However, to me tha amount of strain on the trans on a 4-2 is greater than on a 3-2, of course in deducting this soly on trns temp a line pressure, not so much on work, though more work will generate more friction, equaling to more heat...)
Anyways, I understand that this is a touch subject that is left in the dark and without a final word from one that we can ALL trust. "It hasnt been carved in stone..." This usually ends up in theories and asumptions. All that i have ever stated is that i understand that a camaro is a sports car and that it should be riden like one. But i also enjoy just cruisin'. There isnt to many places down here in miami where i can find a good race and to be honest, im very selective of when i smash the pedal. (that is until i i get that uncontrolable feeling to shut these rice fools down on occasions or the the occasional evo, STI, AMG E55....Whatever.
BAsically, keeping the trans in the OD or D for the T/A is the best way to drive these trans because they werent really meant to be shifted manually. I just feel that since im on my third trans rebuild (408ci has maybe something to do with it and a bad line pressure sensor, which fried EVERTHING!!!!! not one piece of clutch material was left untouched!!!), that im more aware of the limitations and act accordingly. Worried that it my break, hey, **** happens, parts break, but avoiding a broken part is also a choice we all have.
Sorry for the long post, just had all of these words built up......
My advice is use common sense and read as much as you can and YOU make your decisons on what YOU feel is best for YOU ride...
Angel
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Last edited by obZidian; 08-19-2005 at 10:55 AM.
#58
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what about just replaceing the 4L60-E with a th-400 and be done with it, they are super tuff like hard turds and you can manually shift thehell out of htem with a B&M Ripper and **** it as a manumatic.....thats the way i'm goin instead of this 4L60 electronic B.S! a th-400 is a hell of a lot cheaper to repair than the 4L's just my 2 crusty cents.
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a th400 is a nice trans but, unless i get a gar vendor with it, i wont like to be limited to a third gear.
These 4l'z arent that bad as people have labled them to be. Hell, cablebandit has about 750rwhp on a hp an tons of track time and his has lastd for a while until it broke a hard part, i think the input shaft or something like.
So these trans are good but the proper maintainance and actions will keep them running strong. All it takes it a whole lot of heat dissapation and oil to keep them alive. Also, with a 4l you have the feature of adjusting your shift points, shift frimness...things which i believe (and i might be wrong) can't be with a th400 unless you open her up and swap out parts including gears....
On the oter hand, i would love a th400 so i can just forget about it but no fourth gear has me and i want to abandon the 4l....
These 4l'z arent that bad as people have labled them to be. Hell, cablebandit has about 750rwhp on a hp an tons of track time and his has lastd for a while until it broke a hard part, i think the input shaft or something like.
So these trans are good but the proper maintainance and actions will keep them running strong. All it takes it a whole lot of heat dissapation and oil to keep them alive. Also, with a 4l you have the feature of adjusting your shift points, shift frimness...things which i believe (and i might be wrong) can't be with a th400 unless you open her up and swap out parts including gears....
On the oter hand, i would love a th400 so i can just forget about it but no fourth gear has me and i want to abandon the 4l....
#60
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If there was a way to have a ratchit shifter for the 4L60's then i'd love to keep mine, but honestly the manumatic is whats got me hooked onto to the TH-400, and yeah you can change the shift firmness with a Transpak, and the shift points are done with the Ratchit, you can hold it till the cows come home and pigs fly, until you manually shift it yourself.