ChocoTaco369

i agree with a whole lotta stuff you said. i just have to say that RPM's are more deadly than power, for the exact reason rollinna65 said. a lot of FI cars with stock shift points can take the power for quite a long time. is this proof that all 4L60E's will be this fortunate? no.

it would have been interested to see the H/C setup thrown on with stock shift points and see how long it would have lasted. i bet it woulda went a while. i think power doesn't become a problem until high rpm's. if you're making 500 rwhp at 4,500 rpm's, i bet the 4L60E will take it for a long, long time, but if you put it at 6,800 rpm's, i bet the 4L60E dies nearly instantaneously. anyone have tons of money? it would be an INTERESTING experiment!

i have to agree heat is a huge killer. is it more dangerous than RPM's? that depends. i think RPM's are a much faster killer than heat. heat would be a slow killer of a trans.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Guess it really depends on how much heat you're talking about. I'd certainly agree that 210* temps alone aren't going to kill the trans during a single track outting in a 350-400rwhp car. However, something like 240-270*+ temps in a 500rwhp car can kill the trans after as little as a handful of WOT runs.

Again, there is a breaking point in every catigory. All depends on which catigory you push past that breaking point first.

ChocoTaco369

i think heat is a slow killer. if you see 270 degrees, it's probably instant death, but if you're running at 225-230 constantly, i think it would be a long degrading process. RPM's i see as an instant killer. the proof is the H/C swap you performed on your test car. you were running a blower so you were putting down likely well over 400rwhp, the fabled "breaking point" of the 4L60E. yet you were making pass after pass no problem, just like rollinna65's friend. all on a stock trans. with the H/C swap, you were likely putting down over 500rwhp. the shift points get adjusted and BAM, it blows almost instantly. now, it's hard to say what this would have done with stock shift points. can the 4L60E handle 500rwhp shifting at 5,900 rpm's? who knows. but i bet the reason why your trans blew so fast was your raised shift points.

i honestly believe power is not the killer of the 4L60E...at least the common thought of power. i'm sure 500rwhp would kill a 4L60E - which is perfectly understandable, a $25,000 MSRP car taking 500rwhp in an auto would be unheard of and incredible. but i think the 4L60E can take a lot more power than it's given credit for. some people are starting to help prove this. just keep in mind there will always be exceptions. i'm sure a V6 can blow a 4L60E if it's poorly maintained or a factory defect is present.

Camaroz

iTrader: (2)

Damn Choco what would we do without you. Maybe STF for the posts that were quoted early on in this thread. I'm going go say this to you Technically... nice repost

BTW That GU2 is freakin' pointless in your sig. Only us cool people with 3.23s can post gear RPO's

staringback05

iTrader: (8)

i can honestly say i dont think theres ONE thing that defines a breaking transmission....between the heat, wear, rpms, low maintenance...etc etc....

and 2.73s hold there own

Camaroz

iTrader: (2)

I'm not talking **** about 2.73's it's just the fact if he doesn't have to tell everyone he has the standard gear package

staringback05

iTrader: (8)

hmm i guess thats true.....but its choco...cmon....

ChocoTaco369

you resurrected a thread from a month of being dead to rip on my gear ratios? even for a 15 year old that's stupid. for what it's worth, i doubt anyone on this website takes you seriously at all. 1,096 useless posts don't help your cause, either.

and i wouldn't trade 2.73's for 3.23's. 2.73's are far better for roll racing which will be most of the races you come across on the street.

import slayer

My tranny went out as soon as I put in the T-rex and changed the shift points so I think you have a vey good point!!!

RevGTO

iTrader: (12)

Chill, Chocoman ... he's yankin' your chain and you're giving him way too much satisfaction ...

ChocoTaco369

definitely. RPM's are deadlier than power to the 4L60E. i'm 100% confident in that statement and would put money on it if it were possible.
probably. i only wrote that to up my post count

import slayer

I agree with you now

RevGTO

iTrader: (12)

Very stealthy. With almost 2000 in less than a year, you're a master of the art of subterfuge...

staringback05

iTrader: (8)

and whos not argeeing with him?.....shift points and heat...ESP. down here....i like choco he makes alot of good points...BUT DAMN if he aint ready to come back against any statement....thats where those 2G post came from

TwoFast4Lv

iTrader: (8)

I will start off with I Do not come to this section...well this is the first time in 4 years I think. would have to do a search.

RPM has ALWAYS been the main killer. I have been building and testing them for a long time. Mine may not be the best in the world but they live If you are in my area and want one that will really live you come see me

We started out by putting 700R4s in 454 four door duelly tow rigg's and learned from there. With a good driver they would last 60-100k miles no problem. Put one in OD and pull a hard hill (lot's of 10%+ grades here)with 15,000Lbs or so and it would be dead by the top of the hill Use 3rd and keep on trucking. We were testing parts that are common place now.

So it was a natural to stuff one in my race car 14 years ago. We even built a trans. brake but no one wanted one then. Worked much like the one Rossler now sells for the 4L60E. Good to see some one with the time and money to get it to market!

The RPM thing can be pushed to 7,000 or so now. GM came out with a higher volume pump in 04 that should help this...if you can find one

At present we have a turbo car a blower car and a Nitrous car all running bottom tens in full street trim. The lightest is 3,650 and the heaviest is 4,100. Two of them are about to break nines and get driven to the track ...100 miles one way

It can be done as some have stated and yes RPM IS a big killer. I have not been doing this as long as some so I know there is more then what we have

Then again I have seen guys who could break a cotton ball in a marshmellow bag much less shred a well built transmission

BTW I am out of the hole then spraying through the shifts and shifting at 7,200 with the 3,650 Nitrous car

Camaroz

iTrader: (2)

I didn't see this thread was a month old I found it using.. dare I say search! I like how your only comeback is calling me a 15 year old. Hey, Choco who has owned a F-Body longer?

300bhp/ton

Ok 2 questions:

1. I see 6000rpm being listed as the stock shift point for the A4. I thought it was 5850rpm? I know the tacho may be out a bit but mine certainly never makes it to 6000rpm before shifting. Anyone want to clear this up?

2. Ok taking all this on board, what can be done? What are the alternatives. If you have a h/c setup with 450+rwhp shifting at 6600rpm and a limter at 6800rpm what is the answer to making a tranny last.

Not necessarily the stock unit, but would a built 4l60 be the answer or is a different tranny the only real option? Would be wanting 4 gears and lockup though, TH400 isn't an answer.

ChocoTaco369

estimations, dood, estimations. i believe the ACTUAL shift points are 6,000 rpm's from 1-2, 6,000 rpm's from 2-3, and 5,900 rpm's from 3-4. however, none of these matter because the ECU can't shift at exactly the correct RPM. if you log your shifts, you'll see some are shifting a 5,989, some at 6,087, some at 6,102, etc...the main issue here is the rev limiter GM puts in place is ~6,300 rpm's. it's likely safe to shift up to that point. any higher, well...GM put the rev limiter there for a reason. 4L60E goes BOOM above it.

the answer to making a stock tranny last is never taking your shifts over 6,000 rpms - it's the GM rated MAX rpm (although there is a small margin of error). blower cars with stock shift points even putting down over 400rwhp tend to hold onto their trannies for a long time, though nothing is set in stone. i'm fully confident in saying a 350 rwhp car shifting at 6,800 rpm's will break before a 450 rwhp car shifting at 6,000 rpm's. so to answer your question, the best way to make the tranny last is to never go above 6,000 rpm's. in other words, you're not allowed to go WOT if you insist on H/C and raising shift points, you absolutely have to build the tranny. otherwise, time is running out for you.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

This is the correct answer. I can vouch for it as those were the stock shift points on my original/stock PCM file when I first downloaded it with Edit (6K on 1-2 and 2-3, and 5.9K on the 3-4). Also, as Choco stated, I have run many logs and seen first hand that shift points will usually vary 50-100rpm from shift to shift depending on a varity of factors.

I think we can all agree that heat, excessive rpms, poor maintenance, etc., are killers.

But,...

...what I still struggle with is downshifting. I talk to different trans builders, and get different answers. Not sure what to beleive anymore. Is it better to manually downshift to 3rd before going WOT from a roll (allowing for a 3-1 or 3-2 auto downshift), or better to leave it in OD (4th) and let the 4-2 or 4-1 downshift happen? I've read/heard good arguements on both sides, and frankly I'm torn. But at this time, after hearing both sides and based on my own personal experiances, I think I'm back to trusting the 4-2 or 4-1 auto shift rather than manually pulling it back to 3rd each time before WOT.

Truth is, it probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference, especially on stock or bolt-on cars. Either will increase wear, but that's the point of owning these cars, to have fun. Hell, going WOT increases wear on everything but I'm not going to stop doing that either.

ChocoTaco369

downshift into 3 or D. if you ever go WOT, get out of OD. shift into 3 or D with no throttle after you've let your RPM's fall a bit. a 4-1 and 4-2 shift is very bad i've heard many times. a 3-2 shift isn't harmful. as for 3-1, not sure but it's not as bad as the 4-1. remember, if you downshift from 4-1 and 4-2, you're still using that weak 3-4 band - and you're doing it under heavy power! that's DANGEROUS in a stock 4L60E. downshift to 3/D under no throttle since it's easier on the 3-4 band. then when you go WOT, you don't have to worry about harming the weakest bands in the tranny.

this is my opinion.