seperator plate hole size 2-3rd shift
08-15-2007, 06:13 PM
#1
TECH Resident
Thread Starter
iTrader: (26)
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Ft Wayne, IN
Posts: 969
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
seperator plate hole size 2-3rd shift just wondering who runs theirs higher than a .101 on a non-vac modulated 4l60e. Mine was drilled out to a .156 and i have smoked 3rd twice now. trans go recommends .101 for high stall/race applications. Transgo also said anything over a .116 is going to be distructive if not vacumed modulated. Any insite tranny guys would be great.
08-15-2007, 06:52 PM
#2
Wow... .156 is huge.
I've seen 'em large but that is just downright up there.
The key to the hole size is going to lie in how the clutch pack is setup, what other modifications have been done to the unit, and what pressures the pump is putting out.
We run them anywhere between .100 and .135 depending on the unit and what we are trying to accomplish with it... We tailor the builds to the application and the type of service the unit is going to see.
It is very specific to the vehicle for us. Can't speak for other builders, but we learned that this is a critical component in the build process early on in our developmental program... as a matter of fact we don't tell our best buddies how we set those up!
A feed hole that large (.156) is only going to be detrimental to the operation of the unit... been there done that. I am sure someone will come along and disagree with me, and that's ok by me. I can only speak to the successes and failures I have seen in my shop, with the units I built and others built by other guys.
And don't always believe what you hear out of the good folks at Trans-Go. They mean well, and work hard to put good products on the market for us... but they have their faults as well. Ask any builder out there!
Good Luck
g
I've seen 'em large but that is just downright up there.
The key to the hole size is going to lie in how the clutch pack is setup, what other modifications have been done to the unit, and what pressures the pump is putting out.
We run them anywhere between .100 and .135 depending on the unit and what we are trying to accomplish with it... We tailor the builds to the application and the type of service the unit is going to see.
It is very specific to the vehicle for us. Can't speak for other builders, but we learned that this is a critical component in the build process early on in our developmental program... as a matter of fact we don't tell our best buddies how we set those up!
A feed hole that large (.156) is only going to be detrimental to the operation of the unit... been there done that. I am sure someone will come along and disagree with me, and that's ok by me. I can only speak to the successes and failures I have seen in my shop, with the units I built and others built by other guys.
And don't always believe what you hear out of the good folks at Trans-Go. They mean well, and work hard to put good products on the market for us... but they have their faults as well. Ask any builder out there!
Good Luck
g
08-15-2007, 06:53 PM
#3
After many drag race sessions and some dyno time (non vacuum modulated), I have found that .116" third gear feed hole (without having the 2-3 WOT shift flare) seems to be the best when using the Corvette servo. The 3-4 clutch pack clearance should be .022"-.035". The BR (band release) hole should be .082"-.086", and the 2-4 band clearance should be on the minimum side. When using the larger Sonnax 2nd gear apply servo, you can go larger on the 3rd gear feed hole safely at .125" w/o problems. The .156 feed hole might not be the problem here. What was the transmission doing?
08-15-2007, 08:22 PM
#6
TECH Resident
Thread Starter
iTrader: (26)
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Ft Wayne, IN
Posts: 969
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i have a red alto power pack,trans go shift hd2 (c), corvette servo, high rev kit and hardened pump rings w/ new transgo boost valve from the kit and a 4200stall. is the 2-4 band relase the brass pocket right next to 3rd gear bleed? what would you recomended for a street strip car. My builder wants to go .110 on the 2-3shift. As much specs as you could give would be great!!
I also have a brand new seperator plate coming as i want to drill this one perfect
I also have a brand new seperator plate coming as i want to drill this one perfect
08-15-2007, 08:36 PM
#7
The plate hole size sounds more realistic. Up to .125 would be fine for your application.
I do not install the Alto Red Eagle clutch pack. I have not ever been able to get them to live in serious H/P combinations and therefore won't use them in a car that is not as heavily modded.
We use the Borg Warner Heavy Duty clutches. Like Dana mentioned set the clutch pack up on the tight side. We like to see them between .025 and .030.
g
I do not install the Alto Red Eagle clutch pack. I have not ever been able to get them to live in serious H/P combinations and therefore won't use them in a car that is not as heavily modded.
We use the Borg Warner Heavy Duty clutches. Like Dana mentioned set the clutch pack up on the tight side. We like to see them between .025 and .030.
g
Trending Topics
08-15-2007, 09:24 PM
#8
TECH Resident
Thread Starter
iTrader: (26)
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Ft Wayne, IN
Posts: 969
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dana can you hook me up with some good specs do you feel a .116 is safe? This is the second time weve burned it up. I had borg warner cluthes the first time. Do you not feel these clutches will handle a 550whp shift
08-15-2007, 10:12 PM
#9
My bad, I told you we don't use those clutches but not why. When we were developing our racing 4L60E's we tried many, countless 3/4 combinations. The one setup that failed most often was the very thin (.062) steels. They do not transfer heat well at all. And because they don't transfer heat they tend to cone up. When that happens they will cause excessive friction in the clutch pack causing premature failure.
The reason the 3/4 factory style clutches failed was most likely because they were set up too loose, when they seat in or have been applied many times the clearance opens up as much as .010 -.015. That can lead to slippage if the hydraulics are not setup properly.
The Borg Warner clutches handle the heat very well. They handle high rpm's very well and they last. We have not lost a 3/4 clutch pack since February this year in any of our units, and all of those are equipped with the BG clutches.
I am sure there are builders who use the Red Eagle clutches with some success, but I do not trust them. I burned up many, many sets last year in testing. My professional opinion is they will not hold up to the H/P you are putting down.
A 3rd feed hole at or near .016 should be sufficient if the 3rd gear accumulation (band release) is managed properly. I would like to see it a bit larger for the sake of providing more volume in a shorter peorid of time, but that # oughta do just fine for you.
Is there a reason you are not running a vac mod?
g
The reason the 3/4 factory style clutches failed was most likely because they were set up too loose, when they seat in or have been applied many times the clearance opens up as much as .010 -.015. That can lead to slippage if the hydraulics are not setup properly.
The Borg Warner clutches handle the heat very well. They handle high rpm's very well and they last. We have not lost a 3/4 clutch pack since February this year in any of our units, and all of those are equipped with the BG clutches.
I am sure there are builders who use the Red Eagle clutches with some success, but I do not trust them. I burned up many, many sets last year in testing. My professional opinion is they will not hold up to the H/P you are putting down.
A 3rd feed hole at or near .016 should be sufficient if the 3rd gear accumulation (band release) is managed properly. I would like to see it a bit larger for the sake of providing more volume in a shorter peorid of time, but that # oughta do just fine for you.
Is there a reason you are not running a vac mod?
g
08-16-2007, 01:39 PM
#12
TECH Resident
Thread Starter
iTrader: (26)
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Ft Wayne, IN
Posts: 969
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the first go around the tans lasted longer, than the second...
the first time around we used borg warners...second red alto..
borg warners are going back in even though i have the altos already
the first time around we used borg warners...second red alto..
borg warners are going back in even though i have the altos already
08-17-2007, 01:19 PM
#14
Interesting... I typed a response yesterday but don't see it now.
Yes, I did mean .116! Thanks for catching that....
As far as the Vac Mod... It is not "necessary". We run it because we have found great success running it. It is our opinion that there are just simply too many reasons for a tranny to have poor line pressure when running an EPC in a high performance situation.
g
Yes, I did mean .116! Thanks for catching that....
As far as the Vac Mod... It is not "necessary". We run it because we have found great success running it. It is our opinion that there are just simply too many reasons for a tranny to have poor line pressure when running an EPC in a high performance situation.
g
Last edited by Gilbert@Ace Racing; 08-17-2007 at 02:35 PM.
08-17-2007, 05:19 PM
#16
We tried different 3-4 clutch setups many years ago (1996) and found that the Borg Warner 2nd design Hi-Energy clutches to be the best for Street and Strip use. The 1st design were only made for a very short time and were discontinued. If you are making the 2-3, 3-2, 2-3, 3-2 shifts in a very short time period, then the thin steels are not the way to go. If not, I have found that thin steels do not present a problem. The reason the Alto Reds (and some others) do not work well, is that they do not hold very much oil. When the 2-3 shift occurs the oil in the clutch gets vaporized very quickly and removes the heat that is generated. The steels do act as a heat sink, but the amount of oil that the clutch can hold is the key factor here. The Alto Reds do not hold much oil at all, and do not work very well with any thickness of the steel. The Raybestos Blue Plate Specials are equal to the BW Hi-E's at the Strip, but fall short on the Street, and are 4 times the price. When the thinner BW Hi-E's 3-4 clutches were introduced in the 4L65E, we started making a 9 clutch setup, and sometimes a 10 clutch unit with the same success as the 8 clutch setup. The .156 feed hole will work on certain setups, but the circuitry on the 4L60E is not conducive to this hole size in general as compared to the 700R4, where I have used .155-.187 feed hole easily for the last eleven years without any of the problems seen on the 4L60E's. On Greg Whitaker's (9.36-9.60ET) 1995 Firebird, we use a .135 feed hole using the BW Hi-E 9 clutch setup. On Greg Abare's 1996 Firebird (9.90-10.20ET), I use a .156 feed hole, and this vehicle has many many hundred's of successful passes using the BW Hi-E 9 clutch setup. The key here is getting the 2-4 off quickly but not too quick so as to have a 2-3 shift flare. This is a very old issue as the Mopar 727's, Ford C-6, GM 2004R's, GM 200's, etc., all have the 2-3 shift timing issue, and each has its own way of being resolved. The solution for the 4L60E is very touchy as compared the 700R4. There are other things that help here, and I rarely tell anybody this as I like to keep some good information I have found from personal experience. For some reason GM decided to change the height (shorter) of the 3rd gear piston apply ring when they introduced the 4L60E. The apply ring from the 700R4 sits apx. .022"-.030" taller (and will have a #4 as the ID on it) than the one in the 4L60E (and will have will have a #7 as the ID on it) that is in the input drum. The means that during the 2-3 shift, it can apply the clutches as soon as the piston starts to move. With the 4L60E the apply piston is moving the .022"-.030" all the while the 2-4 band is coming off before any clutch apply starts, which can show up as a 2-3 shift flare. There is a third piston that has no ID on it, but it can come both ways short or tall. To me this has been one of the better solutions to the 2-3 shift flare problem. I hope this helps.
Last edited by PBA; 08-17-2007 at 05:31 PM.
08-17-2007, 09:32 PM
#18
Clockwise would increase it however I would like to know what you are getting before doing so. I would get a gauge on it before hand. As a rule of thumb when using a trans-go kit they make about 220-230 psi. Sometimes even more with a good pump. I normally set my pressures on the dyno between 210-220psi. I really do not feel that any more is really needed. Just my opinion here but it seems to work for us.
08-17-2007, 11:03 PM
#19
TECH Resident
Thread Starter
iTrader: (26)
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Ft Wayne, IN
Posts: 969
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
we are putting a gauge on it, if it yeilds pressure that high with the transgo kit i wont increase it at all. can the spc be adjusted with the trans back in?