How many of you guys running stock 4l60 with heads and cam?
12-15-2007, 11:34 AM
#21
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Like the title says I was just wondering how many of you guys are running the stock A4 with heads and cam. I'm planning on heads and cam this winter along with ss4000 from yank. I'll be running a cooler along with the stall but I'm also going with the MS4 and PRC LS6 2.5's and FAST 90/90, which I already have, from TSP so it'll probably be in the 450whp range. Have you guys had any luck running that kind of power through the 4L60?
12-15-2007, 11:36 AM
#22
I concurr... I have a H/C stalled car. My original tranny that has been built once ( stock internals).. the tranny itself has over 250K!! It is slipping pretty bad just as Ratchethed stated.. I am pushing 405 rwtq,,
the car is also starting to buck/clunk @ 40mph when slowing for traffic.
Ratchethed will be building me a tranny this spring, if not sooner!
So, to answer your question, you could do it.. and it would last provided that you don't beat it up everyday, i am living proof of that.
oh, btw, i am running the G5X3,vig3600,LS6heads,bolt on's..
Good luck.. Keep us posted.
12-16-2007, 02:09 AM
#24
Sorry bud you are wrong again...my dads head cam MS3/ 5.3 prc 2.5 runs 10.52 at 125mph with a 1.40 60 ft and he has over 30 passes on the stock 4l60e so i guess he is the lucky one, oh yeah and he shifts at 6800...so it can be done...not sure how long it will last but this is a true beating of the car at the track...i am sure if it driven around town it will last longer than you think...not disagreeing that a trans upgrade is not needed just saying it can be done...
But it's still a bad idea. A quality H/C setup is nearly $4,000 installed, anyway.
I don't understand the mentality, here. You'd rather have no car at all. It makes no sense. No stock 4L60E is going to last behind a H/C setup. There is NO "lucky one." The only way you're going to drag out the life of your transmission is to not touch the shift points. The day you raise your shift points over 6,000, your trans is toast. It'll be a ticking time-bomb. For every guy that's limped their stock 4L60E around for a few weeks, there's 3 guys where it's let go on the dyno just trying to tune it.
You could keep the shift points stock and limp it around for awhile, but why put a H/C package on your car and not raise the shift points? Why would you put a H/C combo on your car and never go WOT? Why would you do all that work to limp it around like a grandma?
You're going to have to buy the transmission anyway. There's NO WAY around it. If you do the transmission first, you never have downtime and you can slowly save up the money for the H/C package. If you put the H/C package on your car, then your car will be out of commission for awhile and you'll be FORCED to immediately drop money on a built transmission to get it moving again.
Doing it your way backs you into a corner and forces you to spend more money faster. If you want to save yourself a headache, I strongly recommend you do it my way. If you want to create as much pain as possible, do it your way.
Sorry I sound so harsh, but I see this happen time and time again and it's very frustrating. People are warned, they still go the way you want to go, then **** hits the fan and they complain about it. Well, they were warned! I'm trying to warn you and save you a headache. I hope you heed my warning because I don't want to say "I told you so."
I don't understand the mentality, here. You'd rather have no car at all. It makes no sense. No stock 4L60E is going to last behind a H/C setup. There is NO "lucky one." The only way you're going to drag out the life of your transmission is to not touch the shift points. The day you raise your shift points over 6,000, your trans is toast. It'll be a ticking time-bomb. For every guy that's limped their stock 4L60E around for a few weeks, there's 3 guys where it's let go on the dyno just trying to tune it.
You could keep the shift points stock and limp it around for awhile, but why put a H/C package on your car and not raise the shift points? Why would you put a H/C combo on your car and never go WOT? Why would you do all that work to limp it around like a grandma?
You're going to have to buy the transmission anyway. There's NO WAY around it. If you do the transmission first, you never have downtime and you can slowly save up the money for the H/C package. If you put the H/C package on your car, then your car will be out of commission for awhile and you'll be FORCED to immediately drop money on a built transmission to get it moving again.
Doing it your way backs you into a corner and forces you to spend more money faster. If you want to save yourself a headache, I strongly recommend you do it my way. If you want to create as much pain as possible, do it your way.
Sorry I sound so harsh, but I see this happen time and time again and it's very frustrating. People are warned, they still go the way you want to go, then **** hits the fan and they complain about it. Well, they were warned! I'm trying to warn you and save you a headache. I hope you heed my warning because I don't want to say "I told you so."
12-16-2007, 01:58 PM
#25
Tech Resident
Sorry bud you are wrong again...my dads head cam MS3/ 5.3 prc 2.5 runs 10.52 at 125mph with a 1.40 60 ft and he has over 30 passes on the stock 4l60e so i guess he is the lucky one, oh yeah and he shifts at 6800...so it can be done...not sure how long it will last but this is a true beating of the car at the track...i am sure if it driven around town it will last longer than you think...not disagreeing that a trans upgrade is not needed just saying it can be done...
I'm wrong because one guy in 1,000 has had a 4L60E hold together. 30 passes? What the hell is 30 passes? That's nothing, especially if you ever drive the car on the street. "30 passes" is a week of driving time for a street car. Congratulations, your dad's transmission has 1 week of street driving on it.
A true beating of a car isn't at the track. It's one WOT pass followed by a substantial cool-down period. It's way more brutal street racing. Street racing is going WOT, then cruising, going WOT again, then cruising, only to go WOT again in the span of 2 minutes. Even more brutal is roll-racing, because then your trans suffers a WOT downshift, one of the most painful things you can do to a stock 4L60E. My car suffers more brutality driving through a heavy work commute than it does when I go to the track.
When you street race, the trans never gets the chance to sit and cool down with the car off. The only thing that's harder on the car is the launch if you have really sticky tires and launch at high rpm's. Once you get out of first gear, it's a lot easier on the trans than on the street. Besides, on street tires, dig racing is less harmful than roll racing. Your argument is BS.
12-16-2007, 04:33 PM
#26
Launching!
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I have a heads/cam car that I drive almost daily. Ive only made about 20 passes total at the track with the heads/cam and shift at 6800. The car runs consistent 11.6s. Never once had any problem with the transmission so far. All I have done to it is a vig 3200 stall and a cooler. The heads/cam have been on the car for a little over a year. Ive had excellent luck so far with it, but im sure its only a matter of time till it goes. I think when i start spraying it, the tranny will go very soon after. Ive heard it is really bad to floor it once the car is in overdrive so if im ever on the highway or already cruising i will put it in 3rd to take it out of over-drive before flooring it. Not sure if that actually will help it last much longer or not though.
12-16-2007, 11:35 PM
#27
One week of street driving huh...think what you want i was just saying it could be done...if you think 30 passes at the track is equivalent to 1 week of street driving you are more ignorant than i thought...and how often do you go wot on the street though all 3 gears...once every couple days...95 % of the time people who drive on the street actually just cruise from one destination to another, not as you call is street racing from one location to another...I mean come on how often do you do three back to back WOT runs street racing against someone else...and to avoid that manual downshift you can put the car in second when you are roll racing and as soon as you put it to the floor just bump it into 3rd so the trans still shifts electronically...
again i still think an upgrade is in order but it can last a while before it goes...
just like the rear 10 bolt i cant even count how many passes i have in the sub 1.5s and mine is still holding up, while others break with stock hp
i was just stating it can be done...thats all
I'm wrong because one guy in 1,000 has had a 4L60E hold together. 30 passes? What the hell is 30 passes? That's nothing, especially if you ever drive the car on the street. "30 passes" is a week of driving time for a street car. Congratulations, your dad's transmission has 1 week of street driving on it.
A true beating of a car isn't at the track. It's one WOT pass followed by a substantial cool-down period. It's way more brutal street racing. Street racing is going WOT, then cruising, going WOT again, then cruising, only to go WOT again in the span of 2 minutes. Even more brutal is roll-racing, because then your trans suffers a WOT downshift, one of the most painful things you can do to a stock 4L60E. My car suffers more brutality driving through a heavy work commute than it does when I go to the track.
When you street race, the trans never gets the chance to sit and cool down with the car off. The only thing that's harder on the car is the launch if you have really sticky tires and launch at high rpm's. Once you get out of first gear, it's a lot easier on the trans than on the street. Besides, on street tires, dig racing is less harmful than roll racing. Your argument is BS.
12-17-2007, 08:04 PM
#28
Tech Resident
One week of street driving huh...think what you want i was just saying it could be done...if you think 30 passes at the track is equivalent to 1 week of street driving you are more ignorant than i thought...and how often do you go wot on the street though all 3 gears...once every couple days...I think you fail to see how much harder a WOT downshift is than a WOT downshift. Street driving can be a lot harder on a car than at the track. Dragstrips are easy on cars when you compare it to street racing and auto-x.
And I was stating that 99 times out of 100, it can't and won't be done.
12-17-2007, 08:58 PM
#29
I still have the stock tranny for now but I don't have aftermarket heads. Just bolt-ons and a cam. I know that when I want to get heads and a fast I will have to upgrade the tranny and rear end. It has been working great and I hope it continues for a while
12-17-2007, 10:10 PM
#30
Choco how many times have you ran someone street racing the whole time you have owned your car...most likely less than 5...your argument is busted to...
all you do is run your mouth about what you read...do you have a heads cam car...No so read the post and shut your mouth, you have no reason to type in here, just like every other thread in this forum...
you have got to be the most know member on this site to give advice where all you have done is read from what someone else said or did, with no personal experience...
maybe if you knew anything about racing at the track you would be out of the 13s and know how hard it is one parts...
all you do is run your mouth about what you read...do you have a heads cam car...No so read the post and shut your mouth, you have no reason to type in here, just like every other thread in this forum...
you have got to be the most know member on this site to give advice where all you have done is read from what someone else said or did, with no personal experience...
maybe if you knew anything about racing at the track you would be out of the 13s and know how hard it is one parts...
12-17-2007, 10:22 PM
#31
Tech Resident
- it's never been one race.The difference between you and I: I'm looking at the big picture and forming a logical opinion by assessing risk based on years of user data and professional opinion. You're looking at one guy's experience. So, whose method is more reliable?
BTW, I'm curious about something. What don't I know "about racing at the track"?
The funniest thing of all: you don't even have a H/C package, so your experience really isn't worth a damn.
Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 12-17-2007 at 10:29 PM.
12-17-2007, 10:47 PM
#32
puss huh...haha yeah your quote "You're one guy with a stock tranny stuck in the 11's that hardly runs at the track."
yeah you better check out your reseach again...i was one of frew running 11.72 SI with manifolds and cats...also i think you better lock on the SI list and see my weight and my size stall with gears and you will maybe then understand that 11.55 at 116.24 hitting the rev limiter at that is ******* FAST!!!
i am done with you man, post what you want...I forgot you know it all...i guess my slow little 11 sec bolt on car and me should just leave...what are you at bolt ons again??? I keep forgetting...
sorry to the original poster for this but this kid has just pushed one time to many...i am done posting in here...
yeah you better check out your reseach again...i was one of frew running 11.72 SI with manifolds and cats...also i think you better lock on the SI list and see my weight and my size stall with gears and you will maybe then understand that 11.55 at 116.24 hitting the rev limiter at that is ******* FAST!!!
i am done with you man, post what you want...I forgot you know it all...i guess my slow little 11 sec bolt on car and me should just leave...what are you at bolt ons again??? I keep forgetting...
sorry to the original poster for this but this kid has just pushed one time to many...i am done posting in here...
12-17-2007, 10:50 PM
#33
Tech Resident
puss huh...haha yeah your quote "You're one guy with a stock tranny stuck in the 11's that hardly runs at the track."
yeah you better check out your reseach again...i was one of frew running 11.72 SI with manifolds and cats...also i think you better lock on the SI list and see my weight and my size stall with gears and you will maybe then understand that 11.55 at 116.24 hitting the rev limiter at that is ******* FAST!!!
yeah you better check out your reseach again...i was one of frew running 11.72 SI with manifolds and cats...also i think you better lock on the SI list and see my weight and my size stall with gears and you will maybe then understand that 11.55 at 116.24 hitting the rev limiter at that is ******* FAST!!!
Backing out is a smart move on your part. You've dug yourself deep enough into a hole
12-18-2007, 12:18 AM
#35
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Lets see where do I start. RIP to my original tranny, it started giving up the ghost after TM was deleted and H/C install. A few nitrous passes later it sprayed pieces all over the track and thats with the stock shift point. Now I have an FLP Level 4 full manual 1st and 2nd with lockup in 3rd or 4th. I spin it to 6800-7,000 rpm all the time. Tranny won't budge, its so much quicker to shift and better than stock!
Oh I forgot to mention it also has a 3200 Vig Stall and the bad boy B and M tranny cooler. If you get a stall get the best tranny cooler money can buy, also don't be surprised when your tranny blows they do on stock cars let alone modded ones.
Oh I forgot to mention it also has a 3200 Vig Stall and the bad boy B and M tranny cooler. If you get a stall get the best tranny cooler money can buy, also don't be surprised when your tranny blows they do on stock cars let alone modded ones.
12-18-2007, 12:24 AM
#36
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Also remember every single thing they do to get a tranny to shift nice and easy and slur shifts is bad for the tranny. Its those belts and bands slipping the harder it hit the better for tranny life.
12-18-2007, 10:02 AM
#37
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For the record my old Z had a pretty nasty cam (Thunder Racing TRak) and LS6 heads, street driven, taken down the track a few times, and by NO means babied. Guess what? No problems at all. I've seen a LOT of stock tranny H/C cars without problems. Don't **** around trying to shift manually, hold lower gears, or spray through the gears, and you might be surprised what it can do. Do we also want to speculate on how my 4L65E will handle a stock internals LS2?
Also cracks me up when people run out right away and put a 12-bolt in a H/C auto car. Run it till it breaks and just have the money ready for when it does. Simple.
12-18-2007, 10:22 AM
#38
seems he hasn't learned yet...
Choco I completley understand where you're coming from. But you have to reallize that other people have opinions too, and not always expect people to agree with you. You in a sense being a hypocrite because although you say people should respect your opinion, you don't respect the opinion of others. all the forums are for is to put your opinion out there and learn a few things, based on your own personal judgment and analysis of the *opinions* that a person collects while reading on them. We're not here to argue till death about anything. you don't like rasp, maybe some people do... also everything on here *opinions* is relative. not everyone has the same frame of reference, likes/dislikes etc. for example, a buddy of mine deleted his cats and has an aftermarket catback, and it does infact sound terrible. however, on another friends setup, deleted cats, stock catback, it sounds fantastic, but again, this is just my opinion. maybe to you you'd like the opposite, or neither. so to tell someone with a brand new ls1 that something is terrible or not i think is terrible, because half the fun of having one of these cars is learning by doing, besides, maybe they'd like the sound/feel/whatever that someone is advising them against? At any rate, don't try to make people think your opinion is fact, and then tell them that what may have worked for them is garbage.
to Choco pertaining to the topic: The only hard, er, more or less tricky part of changing this filter out is releasing the plastic tabs on the old filter. someone suggested using a pulltie for this, which would probably work perfectly, however i couldent find one laying around, even though i know we have hundreds of them someplace. I used small flathead screwdriver and pushed down on the upper tab and it popped right off. easier said than done to say the least. once that's done, er before actually, make sure you have something to catch the extra fuel with, not a whole lot spills out, but enough. also, i don't know if it makes a difference to be honest, but i did anyway, I took my gascap off, to release any pressure, just to be safe. after that it's pretty simple, so good luck and hopefully no probelms! Always arguing either about something he's NEVER DONE HIMSELF... or something that is his opinion... i suppose you think wikipedia is a reliable encyclopedia too eh? strange isn't it?
move on guys.
i'll admit i'm stubborn, but i'm not above admitting i'm wrong about something. i've done it many times before. what i don't do is apologize to complete ********, so if you're being a jerk, don't expect me to work with you. expect me to be stubborn and rude. go through my history. any argument i've ever gotten into, someone else started it. a lot people don't realize that what goes around comes around, so if you're gonna start...well, expect it to go on for a while. however, if you're nice, expect the same courtesy back from me. you'll see i'm NEVER rude to a nice person, i'm only courteous in return.
what i don't back down on is opinion, such as exhaust note and rasp. i'm so sorry i think LS1's sound better with cats, but most people will agree with me. if you like rasp and popping, by all means run cats. everything i've ever said has only been to help, so take it for what it's worth. i suggest you get this thread back on topic before it gets locked.
thanks for the support
and thanks to all for attempting to convince me on doing my own water pump swap, but i'm really not up for it. i just don't have the time. i'll be in philly for school and my car will be in NJ, so i'm just going to drop it off for a week or two at my buddy's brother's shop. i know he'll be doing a good job because he just did a water pump install on a camaro SS last week so the knowledge is fresh in his mind. and i know he'll cut me a good deal. he just welded my cutout on my car for free last week
it pays to know people.
what i don't back down on is opinion, such as exhaust note and rasp. i'm so sorry i think LS1's sound better with cats, but most people will agree with me. if you like rasp and popping, by all means run cats. everything i've ever said has only been to help, so take it for what it's worth. i suggest you get this thread back on topic before it gets locked.
thanks for the support
and thanks to all for attempting to convince me on doing my own water pump swap, but i'm really not up for it. i just don't have the time. i'll be in philly for school and my car will be in NJ, so i'm just going to drop it off for a week or two at my buddy's brother's shop. i know he'll be doing a good job because he just did a water pump install on a camaro SS last week so the knowledge is fresh in his mind. and i know he'll cut me a good deal. he just welded my cutout on my car for free last week
it pays to know people.to Choco pertaining to the topic: The only hard, er, more or less tricky part of changing this filter out is releasing the plastic tabs on the old filter. someone suggested using a pulltie for this, which would probably work perfectly, however i couldent find one laying around, even though i know we have hundreds of them someplace. I used small flathead screwdriver and pushed down on the upper tab and it popped right off. easier said than done to say the least. once that's done, er before actually, make sure you have something to catch the extra fuel with, not a whole lot spills out, but enough. also, i don't know if it makes a difference to be honest, but i did anyway, I took my gascap off, to release any pressure, just to be safe. after that it's pretty simple, so good luck and hopefully no probelms!
move on guys.
12-18-2007, 11:26 AM
#39
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Not trying to wage any personal attacks here, but oddly enough he has neither heads/cam, stall OR a tranny cooler.
For the record my old Z had a pretty nasty cam (Thunder Racing TRak) and LS6 heads, street driven, taken down the track a few times, and by NO means babied. Guess what? No problems at all. I've seen a LOT of stock tranny H/C cars without problems. Don't **** around trying to shift manually, hold lower gears, or spray through the gears, and you might be surprised what it can do. Do we also want to speculate on how my 4L65E will handle a stock internals LS2?
Also cracks me up when people run out right away and put a 12-bolt in a H/C auto car. Run it till it breaks and just have the money ready for when it does. Simple.
For the record my old Z had a pretty nasty cam (Thunder Racing TRak) and LS6 heads, street driven, taken down the track a few times, and by NO means babied. Guess what? No problems at all. I've seen a LOT of stock tranny H/C cars without problems. Don't **** around trying to shift manually, hold lower gears, or spray through the gears, and you might be surprised what it can do. Do we also want to speculate on how my 4L65E will handle a stock internals LS2?
Also cracks me up when people run out right away and put a 12-bolt in a H/C auto car. Run it till it breaks and just have the money ready for when it does. Simple.
12-18-2007, 12:06 PM
#40
My stock tranny lasted about 6 high 11 sec passes before it puked it's guts. I've had my arguments with Choco too.... You are just adding fuel to the fire by posting back at him. There are many reasons a stock tranny won't hold up.
1. It has a weak pump slide spring and when you rev higher than 5500 rpm pressure can start dropping off.
2. The clutch clearances throughout the tranny are not that of a performance setting.
3. Combine 1 and 2 and you have a recipe for a worn out tranny, even at stock power levels.
1. It has a weak pump slide spring and when you rev higher than 5500 rpm pressure can start dropping off.
2. The clutch clearances throughout the tranny are not that of a performance setting.
3. Combine 1 and 2 and you have a recipe for a worn out tranny, even at stock power levels.