after a year of 10 sec passes the teeth on the edge of input drum that holds the keeper ring for 3,4 cluthes in broke off.everything else that was in the last rebuild looked great.what can be done to strengthn this week point or cause this to happen

 

Well it can be a result of excessive 3-4 clutch clearance. Also possibily excessive line presure though if you have been running it a year the latter is not likley. More than likley your clearance just got a little high from normal wear and then the impact broke out the drum that accompanied with the repeated stress. I am not aware of anything presently to strenghthen this area of the drum other than replacing it with a well checked out or possibly new drum.

 

the guy who built it and tore it down previously said there is room in transmission housing for a heavier built input drum if some one would just make one.what should max pressure be in your opionion .I think the pressure relief is like 220

 

what 3,4 clutch pack do you like . I had 6 blue plates and 1 extra thinner koleen steel to make the clearances work last time but I might try something different

 

Well I have had good luck with the Zpack and others have had good luck with the borg heavy dutys, Of course we also do use the blue plates and they have served us well also. You might consider sticking with the blue plates and ajusting for 7 and keep clearance low around .020 - .025 on the initial build realizing it will open up a little after a few applies allways set clutch clearance dry.

Also I agree on the drum I allways wondered how a stamped steel shell type drum would work out. If someone ever makes one.

 

I like the way you think thanks for the info good luck on the patent because we have even seen this same problem in bone stock cars and trucks.It would be a great performance upgrade

 

The problem with making the drum out of steel is the weight. I have looked into it. The issue that I believe will be with trying to support it. You only have so much room for wider bushings and the input sun gear will be supporting the bulk of the weight. With that being said the rest of the bushings in the trans will suffer do to the single center line of support of the trans. I think the best way to make a better drum would be to make it out of a very light material but extremely strong. However what would the price of a block/billet piece of that metal cost? A place I worked for we looked into making a new drum and the price well exceeded the value of it. If I remember correctly it would be almost 2 grand to make a one off piece. $1200 but we had to make a 100 of them. The project ended quickly. We had similar issues with the drum breaking and I believe the problem was from running blue plates in the 4l60e. In combination with running very large 3rd gear feed hole, blue plates, 230 psi line pressure, we broke quite a few drums. Another issue with the blue plates is that they do not like to be run very tight as far as clutch clearance is concerned. I found that running them under .035-.040 that they would easily skid from centrifugal drag. I did run an 8 pack but had issues. I myself think the BW HE frictions work just fine and greatly reduce hard part failures. Good luck guy's. Vince

 

thanks man

 

what clearance would you use on bw hd

 

But you know I really do not think that a stamped steel drum like used in the 4t60e would really be any heavier. But as stated it would be expensive

 

Alto is working with Sonnax on the idea of a different input drum, according to Roy at Alto's tech dept. The clutch clearance should be .025" - .030" with the Borg Warner Hi-Energy clutches. I have used them in hundreds of units over the years and have very little problems with them. The input drums that I have seen break at the 3-4 clutch snap ring had nothing to do with how fast or how much HP they were making. I seen new drums break also. Upon close inspection, there were "voids" in the aluminum that lead to the cracking, and then the breaking of the part.

 

Ever seen both snap rings broke?
http://www.mez.co.uk/dcam/DSCF0630.JPG

This was on a 700r4 with TCI manual VB - line pressures pegged around 250 psi. I removed it shortly after.

 

Im not no trans guy but can't you send out the drum to get harden?I remember seeing somthng like about a year ago were they were having good luck with a harding prosess that made it look like chrome when it was done.They were doing on ring pin gears (7.5) in a camaro with great results.Ill try and search for the link.

Mikronite is the prosess crane cam is doing it here is the link and there is a vid on there home page.
http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?s...niteProcessVid

 

Stamped steel drums break to. I broke 2 direct drums and a forward drum in a AOD in my mustang. I went to the first design cast steel drum and that cured that problem. They break as well and that is why a billet drum is advailable. I have seen the 4t60 drums break to. Look at it this way. The sun shell in a 700r4 was made of stamped/rolled steel, ruffly the same thing, it was very prone to breakage. Then they reduced how it was stamped and made it more of a rolled surface around the spline area for the rear sun gear. This reduced it from breaking but the spline area was still weak and over time it would strip out. Not sure if it expanded over time around the sun gear increasing clearance thus allowing slop in that area causing the splines to wear. The beast shell is a much heavier piece in this area and seems to work well. I think the thickness of the beast is what makes it stronger however with any heavier piece of metal, support becomes an issue. The beast when purchased comes with a piece of paper suggesting that a wide rear sun gear bushing be used. Once again strength sacrifices weight and support. The key here I think is in an Aerospace type metal but once again leading us back to the cost of the material and also the cost to produce it. We at FLT have found a good combination and I do not believe that last year we have had one single drum break out the snap ring groove. Keep in mind we are not using blue plates and every unit the pressures are calibrated on the dyno. Quality control and testing procedures have been the key to our success. Good luck guy's and if someone comes up with a new drum I would like to see it. Vince

 

man you are cool I was thinking titanium but that stuff is crazy high but is light weight and very strong from what i here but i dont know much

 

:cough: Titanium input drum :cough:

 

What type of steel is the drum actual made of?

We heat treat material at my shop all the time. Stress relieve, aneal, temper, even solution aneal. But it would be based on what type of material it is realy made of.

IF it is an option i would do a few for free. I have alot of friends that are engineers. If you can tell me what exactly the material is, I can tell you if I can make it stronger!

There is always a balance though, if you make it too hard it will crack under heavy shock loads. If you increase the tensile too much it will not break but the teeth will strip out. So there is only so much that can be done , based on what it is made of. Any idea of the bernell hardness is? If not I can check that also.

Lionel Chatelier

 

The drum is cast aluminum. Not sure on the actual grade so to speak. Here is a photo of the drum.

 

What we need is a company or companies in concert as well as a number of vehicles to do R&D which is time consuming and expensive. I can only do so much at my shop and my Camaro. Bad economies don't help either. Let's start at the beginning. When the 4L60 series trans was designed, GM didn't care if this trans will handle the riggors of excessive power we make today. They want to get good performance and durability in the vehicles they are installed into, and to get through a specified warranty. We have the responsibility to make it better, the American Way! I have had good success with 6 Red Devil frictions and .106" Koline steels, as a heat absorber, and .030" clearance. The key I find is to not engage the frictions too firmly as not to break the end of the drum off. We also need a given amount of pressure to hold the frictions without slipping. This is where the metals start to give way because the manufacturer designed the trans in mind with the room allowed under the vehicles the trans was designed for, Camaro, T/A, Vette. I use a heat treated and Mikronited drum and input shaft, 4L65E, as well as the sleeve pressed onto the mated area in the drum. There is also mileage to think of. This is why most of the manufacturers have gone to aluminum and "sheetmetal" drums for rotating mass. In the 60's & 70's drums and other parts such as frictions and steels were much thicker and bigger and heavier, basically over built. Today the "bean counters" have forced manufacturers to trim down these materials to attain the mileage restraints placed on them from the EPA. All a customer wants is a reasonably priced trans in his performance vehicle. Good Luck!! Look at the exotic materials being made for our motors today vs. 10 years ago. They are much less expensive because of mass production today. There are so many people wanting to use this style trans but have run into this grey area of what to do. What we need is a group of people willing to invest in this problem before it becomes outdated. We need to test these products to withstand Nitrous, Turbocharging, and Supercharging, since these power adders apply power differently from start to finish. I am willing to experiment and donate my time as I can assemble and install the parts in question, and I sponsor a track in my area and can get track time for testing. I have been using NX and am running a high 10 sec. car for a little over 2 years applying more power as we test with what we have. I also have a customer willing to test his 88MM turbo T/A which now has a 400 trans and 1100HP. I run around 750HP in my car and it is heavy which loads the parts more than a lighter car, especially when launched with the NX. I have installed many of the 1 pce. 4340 drums in the Dodge high torque and HP diesel trucks. This drum is around $900.00 and the guys can't get enough of them. The other problem is there is no center support such as the 400. Where the input and output shafts meet there is a rocking motion which causes loss of hydraulic application when the rings quit sealing properly or eat into the drum or pump stator. We could also create bearings instead of bushings. This is where Lionel would step in. There could be an issue of brinelling of the metals under load and shock of the firm shifting. My name is Brian and my T/F # is 877-866-9336 if you want to start testing parts. I am stroking my motor as we speak and am taking apart my trans for inspection. Our racing season starts in mid April so we have time. I cannot manufacture parts but can install them for free and test them. I am also discreet in case there is a patent in mind. If there are people willing, we can get this done with in a year or less, time for testing. GM is just releasing the long awaited LSX heads hopefully this month. How long have we waited for them? Can we get this done for the next LSX Shootout? Call me. PS, Vince where are you located? I would like to tour your shop. I have been quietly doing what you do and I believe in what you are trying to do for the customer.

 

I did not realize we were talking about Aluminum! It has been 12 or 15 years scince I have rebuilt a 700R4. So please dont think I am a complete idiot! There is not much that a heat treat can do for it. Short of completely rebuiding the piece from steel, I cant be much help. We do have machiening capabilaties, but no C&C, just end mills and lathes. I could get one built, I know alot of machien shops here in Houston that have the capabilaties to make one, but it would be exspensive. I could get one, maybe two done as a "favor" . It would weigh a bit more. any chance you know the total volume of one? If you put it in a water filled container and measuered the water rise befor and after, i could then give you an exact weight it would be if made of steel.

As fas as exotic material, I have access to plenty, but the the cost will multiply quickly, and the machien work gets alot harder also. Some one mentioned titanium, it could be done, but might cost several thousand for the piece.