10 Cars That Sank Detroit
11-23-2008, 11:12 PM
#81
There seems to be a trend in the media not to acknowledge that the big Japanese companies have been creating more large less fuel efficient vehicles than ever before!
11-24-2008, 02:14 AM
#82
Many people bring up the future of the "big 3" and "large Trucks/SUVs" in the same breath, without mentioning that the big 3s full size vehicles have been making strides in fuel mileage while the Foreign companies have been making more than their fair share of larger less fuel efficient trucks and SUV's..ie Titan,Tundra, FJ, 4runner etc.
There seems to be a trend in the media not to acknowledge that the big Japanese companies have been creating more large less fuel efficient vehicles than ever before!
There seems to be a trend in the media not to acknowledge that the big Japanese companies have been creating more large less fuel efficient vehicles than ever before!
And in most cases, a truck was (still is) actually necessary/needed to get a particular job (construction, plumbing, electrician, hauling, police use, carpooling etc.) done, not all truck sales were simply moms with one or no kids at all just driving around in these tanks when a more fuel efficent sedan would've sufficed instead.
11-24-2008, 02:40 AM
#83
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i skimmed through the first page of this.
you guys are naive and WAYYYY too pro-gm, **** everything else. that article is 100% correct. between the saturation of the name brands, the unions, and all the other bullshit, GM and other domestic automakers are in the *******, and the dumbass execs looking for billions in bailouts, flying to the meetings in their private luxo jets, only to drain the money in a month or two are retarded.
the only way to fix it is to totally restructure the companies. **** all the contracts, **** all the 23091 brands of the same vehicle, and almost start over so-to-speak
UGHUIJGNAOKSDG
you guys are naive and WAYYYY too pro-gm, **** everything else. that article is 100% correct. between the saturation of the name brands, the unions, and all the other bullshit, GM and other domestic automakers are in the *******, and the dumbass execs looking for billions in bailouts, flying to the meetings in their private luxo jets, only to drain the money in a month or two are retarded.
the only way to fix it is to totally restructure the companies. **** all the contracts, **** all the 23091 brands of the same vehicle, and almost start over so-to-speak
UGHUIJGNAOKSDG
11-24-2008, 09:05 AM
#84
The article is way too kind too Detroit...
Ford Pinto Article was too kind to Ford on this one. Ford was the first and I think still the only American auto company indicted for murder. Ford knew it's faulty design with the Pinto would kill people and didn't car because settling the lawsuits would be cheaper than fixing the problems. Much of the screwed up liabilty laws that hamper US businesses resulted from this case.
Chevrolet Cavalier. GM had it's not broke so lets not fix it point of view. As long as they were making money of it why bother to improve the product...GM failed to realize that the younger 2nd and 3rd owners of a car ARE your future customer base.
Chevrolet Astro GM got ran out of the market because they were making the product they wanted to make...not the product the customer wanted.
Ford Taurus Was an instant success & Ford should have made the most of it. Some of the early cars were bad news with the 3.8 v6. My mom had an 89 Sable same as a Taurus. 104,000 miles - two head gaskets and a transmission.
Explorer GM could have been feeling out the market with cars like the G8 say 5 to 10 years ago but instead they decided to follow. There was a market for V8 cars back then. The V8 LT1 Impala SS was LOVED so of course GM killed it.
Jaguar X-Type Domestics cash in on a name and create junk? No that would never happen.
Hummer H2 GM and herd mentality. It's easier to follow than to lead...but that also means it's too late too change course when the herd charges over a cliff and your following...
Toyota Prius GM had an electric car years before this thing was on the market...it was killed because would have required some R&D for the future and that would have cost $. Good thing GM made the right decision, plan for the moment, not the future because the future never arrives...
Chrysler Sebring Took one for a test drive. YAWN. Wife liked but then she doesn't like cars.
Jeep Compass Chrysler learn this failed trick from GM?
Ford Pinto Article was too kind to Ford on this one. Ford was the first and I think still the only American auto company indicted for murder. Ford knew it's faulty design with the Pinto would kill people and didn't car because settling the lawsuits would be cheaper than fixing the problems. Much of the screwed up liabilty laws that hamper US businesses resulted from this case.
Chevrolet Cavalier. GM had it's not broke so lets not fix it point of view. As long as they were making money of it why bother to improve the product...GM failed to realize that the younger 2nd and 3rd owners of a car ARE your future customer base.
Chevrolet Astro GM got ran out of the market because they were making the product they wanted to make...not the product the customer wanted.
Ford Taurus Was an instant success & Ford should have made the most of it. Some of the early cars were bad news with the 3.8 v6. My mom had an 89 Sable same as a Taurus. 104,000 miles - two head gaskets and a transmission.
Explorer GM could have been feeling out the market with cars like the G8 say 5 to 10 years ago but instead they decided to follow. There was a market for V8 cars back then. The V8 LT1 Impala SS was LOVED so of course GM killed it.
Jaguar X-Type Domestics cash in on a name and create junk? No that would never happen.
Hummer H2 GM and herd mentality. It's easier to follow than to lead...but that also means it's too late too change course when the herd charges over a cliff and your following...
Toyota Prius GM had an electric car years before this thing was on the market...it was killed because would have required some R&D for the future and that would have cost $. Good thing GM made the right decision, plan for the moment, not the future because the future never arrives...
Chrysler Sebring Took one for a test drive. YAWN. Wife liked but then she doesn't like cars.
Jeep Compass Chrysler learn this failed trick from GM?
11-24-2008, 01:23 PM
#85
....but when GM or Ford do it they're ridiculed and panned.Maybe some other people are also naive and WAY too pro 'Japanese auto industry' that it blinds them to seeing that EVERYONE utilizes platform sharing.
Bias goes both ways ya know.
11-24-2008, 02:08 PM
#86
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i see what you are saying, but there is difference........
Acura is an "UPPER LEVEL" Honduh
Lexus is an "UPPER LEVEL" Toyota
Infinity is an "UPPER LEVEL" Nissan
and there is a market for all of them...
****on the other hand****
Envoy = TrailBlazer = Bravada
Tahoe = Yukon
Denali = Escalade <--- (not quite as stong a case)
Jeep = Jeep = Jeep lol
Dodge minivan = Chrysler minivan etc etc
Cobalt = G5
For every GMC there is a chevy counterpart, and maybe buick as well
Ford a Mercury
etc
etc
etc
i mean, i could make a full page list of these.
and the most important thing that distinguishes this from what the azn's are doing is
there are not (for the most part) different markets for these vehicles. they are essentially the same market. they are not ADDING new consumers, they are SPLITTING EXISTING consumers across the brands. benefit? not much. production costs > marginal benefit
economics 101
Acura is an "UPPER LEVEL" Honduh
Lexus is an "UPPER LEVEL" Toyota
Infinity is an "UPPER LEVEL" Nissan
and there is a market for all of them...
****on the other hand****
Envoy = TrailBlazer = Bravada
Tahoe = Yukon
Denali = Escalade <--- (not quite as stong a case)
Jeep = Jeep = Jeep lol
Dodge minivan = Chrysler minivan etc etc
Cobalt = G5
For every GMC there is a chevy counterpart, and maybe buick as well
Ford a Mercury
etc
etc
etc
i mean, i could make a full page list of these.
and the most important thing that distinguishes this from what the azn's are doing is
there are not (for the most part) different markets for these vehicles. they are essentially the same market. they are not ADDING new consumers, they are SPLITTING EXISTING consumers across the brands. benefit? not much. production costs > marginal benefit
economics 101
11-24-2008, 02:19 PM
#87
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Once again, when Toyota rebadges their cars/trucks as a Lexus, Honda rebadges theirs as Acura and Nissan rebadges theirs as Infinitis then it's ok ....but when GM or Ford do it they're ridiculed and panned.
Maybe some other people are also naive and WAY too pro 'Japanese auto industry' that it blinds them to seeing that EVERYONE utilizes platform sharing.
Bias goes both ways ya know.
....but when GM or Ford do it they're ridiculed and panned.Maybe some other people are also naive and WAY too pro 'Japanese auto industry' that it blinds them to seeing that EVERYONE utilizes platform sharing.
Bias goes both ways ya know.
The truth is that ten years ago, GM DID do way too much sharing. Japan was sharing platforms, yes, but GM was sharing bodies. Look at the 2000 Malibu/Grand AM/Alero/Catera. That was as stupid as it gets. Those cars shared drivetrains, suspensions, glass, 90% of sheetmetal and even seats and dashboards in some instances. That's going too far. These days GM has made the changeover to platform sharing, and that's what everyone is doing. GM at this point is actually doing less platform sharing than Japan. Example - the new Malibu and G6. Same platform...can you tell? No way. They share drivetrains and suspensions...the list ends there.
The truth is, despite what all these self claimed experts say, that GM is on the right track now. Problem is that they need time, and that's what they don't have. They have great cars, both on lots and in the pipelines, but unless the government steps in, those vehicles will never see the light of day and therefore can't do anything to help the company.
Sure, some shakeup of management couldn't hurt, and maybe ditching GMC and Buick (in the US) would be the right thing to do. That would leave GM with a core brand (Chevy), a performance brand (Pontiac) and a luxury brand (Cadillac). I honestly don't know what to say about Saturn. I'm 50/50 on that one. I don't think they'd miss it.
11-24-2008, 02:26 PM
#88
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****on the other hand****
Envoy = TrailBlazer = Bravada
Tahoe = Yukon
Denali = Escalade <--- (not quite as stong a case)
Jeep = Jeep = Jeep lol
Dodge minivan = Chrysler minivan etc etc
Cobalt = G5
For every GMC there is a chevy counterpart, and maybe buick as well
Ford a Mercury
etc
etc
etc
i mean, i could make a full page list of these.
and the most important thing that distinguishes this from what the azn's are doing is
there are not (for the most part) different markets for these vehicles. they are essentially the same market. they are not ADDING new consumers, they are SPLITTING EXISTING consumers across the brands. benefit? not much. production costs > marginal benefit
economics 101
Envoy = TrailBlazer = Bravada
Tahoe = Yukon
Denali = Escalade <--- (not quite as stong a case)
Jeep = Jeep = Jeep lol
Dodge minivan = Chrysler minivan etc etc
Cobalt = G5
For every GMC there is a chevy counterpart, and maybe buick as well
Ford a Mercury
etc
etc
etc
i mean, i could make a full page list of these.
and the most important thing that distinguishes this from what the azn's are doing is
there are not (for the most part) different markets for these vehicles. they are essentially the same market. they are not ADDING new consumers, they are SPLITTING EXISTING consumers across the brands. benefit? not much. production costs > marginal benefit
economics 101
Same with Yukon vs. Tahoe and FX56 vs. Armada.
You have illustrated well the difference between domestics and imports in this area. Though it's not the difference you intended to illustrate. You've seen the commercials from all these manufacturers and you, like the general public, believe that when you pay $5000 more for an FX56 over an Armada, you are getting alot more with it. After all, the fancy ad on the TV said so. However, having never seen any commercials for the Yukon or Tahoe, you don't realize how much more you get in a Yukon for the extra money you pay.
I'm not trying to make you sound stupid...it's not your fault, it's GM/Ford/Chryslers fault for not putting enough emphasis on marketing.
11-24-2008, 02:40 PM
#89
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im going by experience. and like you, im not debating all of what you are saying. there are pros and cons to each of our statements.
i own a denali..... have had a base yukon in the past and have been in the tahoe and suburban equivalents. where one is lacking (among the equivalent models) , the other has some nice immenedies, and vice versa. the one thing the denali/escalade offers that the chevy doesn't (to my knowledge) are the 6.0L, and now 6.2L packages whereas chevy only offered the 5.3L (again, to my knowledge)
the yukon vs tahoe is a weak example supporting my claim imo..... and beyond that i'm not really going to expand on my argument. i dont know as much as i would like to to argue my point, other than the opinion i stated. im trying to block out the shambles of an economy and domestic auto market we have to pretend we have pretty rainbows outside. in other words im not paying too close attention to it yet. and hell, if the execs running these companies can't figure this RIDICULOUS issue out, i certainly wont pretend to have the end all be all answer.
all in all, there are rights and wrongs to ALL of our statements. but i certainly will go back to my original statement and agree with the OP
i own a denali..... have had a base yukon in the past and have been in the tahoe and suburban equivalents. where one is lacking (among the equivalent models) , the other has some nice immenedies, and vice versa. the one thing the denali/escalade offers that the chevy doesn't (to my knowledge) are the 6.0L, and now 6.2L packages whereas chevy only offered the 5.3L (again, to my knowledge)
the yukon vs tahoe is a weak example supporting my claim imo..... and beyond that i'm not really going to expand on my argument. i dont know as much as i would like to to argue my point, other than the opinion i stated. im trying to block out the shambles of an economy and domestic auto market we have to pretend we have pretty rainbows outside. in other words im not paying too close attention to it yet. and hell, if the execs running these companies can't figure this RIDICULOUS issue out, i certainly wont pretend to have the end all be all answer.
all in all, there are rights and wrongs to ALL of our statements. but i certainly will go back to my original statement and agree with the OP
11-27-2008, 11:09 PM
#90
The article is way too kind too Detroit...
Ford Pinto Article was too kind to Ford on this one. Ford was the first and I think still the only American auto company indicted for murder. Ford knew it's faulty design with the Pinto would kill people and didn't car because settling the lawsuits would be cheaper than fixing the problems. Much of the screwed up liabilty laws that hamper US businesses resulted from this case.
Ford Pinto Article was too kind to Ford on this one. Ford was the first and I think still the only American auto company indicted for murder. Ford knew it's faulty design with the Pinto would kill people and didn't car because settling the lawsuits would be cheaper than fixing the problems. Much of the screwed up liabilty laws that hamper US businesses resulted from this case.
The pinto related rear impact issue is one that is well known to all.
But few are aware of the 100% buyback (Recall ID # 94V031000 ) on Nissan minivans from the late 80's because the Japanese manufacturers and their media supporters keep it quiet. All 33,000 87 minivans were to be bought back if the owner accepted the offer due to the risk of fire.
And this issue did not involve another vehicle hitting it to set the van on fire. It would happen on its own. And few have heard of it!
Last edited by TT632; 11-27-2008 at 11:14 PM.
11-28-2008, 01:20 AM
#91
The pinto related rear impact issue is one that is well known to all.
But few are aware of the 100% buyback (Recall ID # 94V031000 ) on Nissan minivans from the late 80's because the Japanese manufacturers and their media supporters keep it quiet. All 33,000 87 minivans were to be bought back if the owner accepted the offer due to the risk of fire.
And this issue did not involve another vehicle hitting it to set the van on fire. It would happen on its own. And few have heard of it!
But few are aware of the 100% buyback (Recall ID # 94V031000 ) on Nissan minivans from the late 80's because the Japanese manufacturers and their media supporters keep it quiet. All 33,000 87 minivans were to be bought back if the owner accepted the offer due to the risk of fire.
And this issue did not involve another vehicle hitting it to set the van on fire. It would happen on its own. And few have heard of it!
The vast media hush hush thing when it comes to recalls/quality issues among Toyota/Honda/Nissan vehicles is quite common actually.
Advertising dollars and radio/television media ownership (Columbia/Sony etc.) can go a long way.
11-28-2008, 03:23 AM
#92
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We can look back on the past and see the hybrids from toyota and honda were the better way to go. While you can argue hybrids may only give 10-20% better economy, it was a good selling item for them. GM could have sold hybrids but missed the boat.
I drove a new Saturn Aura.... This car drives nicer then a toyota camry..... so I guess theirs some hope for GM?
I drove a new Saturn Aura.... This car drives nicer then a toyota camry..... so I guess theirs some hope for GM?
11-28-2008, 07:56 PM
#96
x 10
11-28-2008, 09:32 PM
#97
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Lets talk badge engineering for a second. I know GM has too many brands but lets just say GM is by far not the only one guilty.
]
I don't here anyone bitching about these guys.
Everything is perception, in the eye of the beholder.
Not to say the import guys make bad cars, but I choose not to behold imports.
]
I don't here anyone bitching about these guys.
Everything is perception, in the eye of the beholder.
Not to say the import guys make bad cars, but I choose not to behold imports.
11-29-2008, 12:38 AM
#98
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GENERAL MOTORS:
Buick:
Enclave
Lacrosse
Lucerne
Cadillac:
CTS
DTS
Escalade - Tahoe - Yukon - H2
SRX
STS
XLR - Corvette
Chevrolet:
Avalance
Aveo - G3
Camaro
Cobalt - G5
Colorado - Canyon - H3T
Corvette - XLR
Equinox - Torrent
HHR
Impala
Malibu
Silverado - Sierra
Suburban
Tahoe - H2 - Yukon - Escalade
Trailblazer - Envoy - 9-7X
Traverse
GMC:
Acadia
Canyon - Colorado - H3T
Envoy - Trailblazer - 9-7X
Sierra - Silverado
Yukon - Tahoe - H2 - Escalade
Hummer:
H2
H3
H3T - Colorado - Canyon
Pontiac:
G3 - Aveo
G5 - Cobalt
G6
G8
Solstice - Sky
Torrent - Equinox
Vibe - Toyota Matrix
Saab:
9-5
9-7X - Trailblazer - Envoy
Saturn:
Astra
Aura
Outlook
Sky
Vue
TOYOTA:
Lexus:
ES - Camry
GS
GX - 4Runner
IS
LS
LX - Land Cruiser
RX
SC
Scion:
tC
xB
xD
Toyota:
4Runner - GX
Avalon - Venza
Camry - ES
Corolla
FJ Cruiser
Highlander
Land Cruiser - LX
Matrix - Pontiac Vibe
Prius
RAV4
Sequoia
Sienna
Tacoma
Tundra
Venza - Avalon
Yaris
Anyone with a brain stem can see there's more product and more segment overlap on the GM side. GM, if it continues to exist, needs to drastically scale down the number of models and use the resources they have left in making the models they have left better.
Buick:
Enclave
Lacrosse
Lucerne
Cadillac:
CTS
DTS
Escalade - Tahoe - Yukon - H2
SRX
STS
XLR - Corvette
Chevrolet:
Avalance
Aveo - G3
Camaro
Cobalt - G5
Colorado - Canyon - H3T
Corvette - XLR
Equinox - Torrent
HHR
Impala
Malibu
Silverado - Sierra
Suburban
Tahoe - H2 - Yukon - Escalade
Trailblazer - Envoy - 9-7X
Traverse
GMC:
Acadia
Canyon - Colorado - H3T
Envoy - Trailblazer - 9-7X
Sierra - Silverado
Yukon - Tahoe - H2 - Escalade
Hummer:
H2
H3
H3T - Colorado - Canyon
Pontiac:
G3 - Aveo
G5 - Cobalt
G6
G8
Solstice - Sky
Torrent - Equinox
Vibe - Toyota Matrix
Saab:
9-5
9-7X - Trailblazer - Envoy
Saturn:
Astra
Aura
Outlook
Sky
Vue
TOYOTA:
Lexus:
ES - Camry
GS
GX - 4Runner
IS
LS
LX - Land Cruiser
RX
SC
Scion:
tC
xB
xD
Toyota:
4Runner - GX
Avalon - Venza
Camry - ES
Corolla
FJ Cruiser
Highlander
Land Cruiser - LX
Matrix - Pontiac Vibe
Prius
RAV4
Sequoia
Sienna
Tacoma
Tundra
Venza - Avalon
Yaris
Anyone with a brain stem can see there's more product and more segment overlap on the GM side. GM, if it continues to exist, needs to drastically scale down the number of models and use the resources they have left in making the models they have left better.
