my plan would be every u.s. citizen should be able to go vote on the bailout

just like we vote for american idol or anything else, if we are going to be the ones paying for it then we should vote on it..... i dont see why we have these douche bags in office that determine if this bill gets passed or this one dosent

cuz these same douche bags in office are part of the reason the economy is in the crapper right now...

there is too much corruption in politics, look at what citigroup is getting $306 billion..... and GM, FORD, and CHRYSLER are only asking for 1/10th of that amount and they have alot more peoples jobs at stake than citigroup

all cuz the secretary of treasury is butt buddies with the ceo of citigroup

now the only reason i would want to help bailout the big 3 is for all the real working americans with familys that need their jobs

if that wasnt the case i would want the big 3 to go down in the hole they dug

 

you have a good point, i like the idea that we should vote on things like this, but it will never happen

 

a bailout of the big 3 doesn't fix their problems... please tell me why as a taxpayer I should have to pay for a company (or three in this case) that have lousy business plans?

Don't say "Well we are bailing out banks, why not the auto industry?" that's not an argument for the bailout of the automakers. Fact is nobody should get bailed out, where do you draw the line?

The big 3 need to file for bankruptcy protection and renegotiate all their current contracts with suppliers,etc. and scrap the UAW.

 

That's really just a nice way of saying you feel that they just need to go away entirely...because that's likely what will happen once the average (stupid) consumer hears that the company they're considering buying a vehicle from is in the middle of bankruptcy/restructure proceedings.
No, I agree, you shouldn't have to pay for these loans (yes loans, NOT bailouts) but let me ask you this...you'd rather pay for the unemployment benefits/health insurance coverages/welfare/food stamps of ALL of those people once they're perpetually out of work?
You're going to paying at least something either way bro.

 

Better yet, here's a novel idea.
Why don't the many loyal, faithful AMERICAN CITIZENS of this great nation simply just start buying AMERICAN NAMEPLATE vehicles instead of a fv<king JAPANESE, KOREAN or GERMAN one?

Sure would solve A LOT (but certainly not all) of these problems now wouldn't it.

 

...you do know this isn't a democracy right?

 

Either way.... it IS going to COST you something.

The cost of letting them fail is around $200B!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...lB8&refer=home

Did I miss something..... $100B<$200B

If GM goes under.... it will cause millions of job losses.... hell.... even Toyota fears it may hurt them more than it would help.

It could even drive the country in to a depression.... which would cost us Trillions and take YEARS to recover from.

Even if we wind up GIVING GM $100B.... it will be better than the price we all would pay as the result of a depression.

Also.... bare in mind..... all the auto manufacturers use the same suppliers..... even the foreign owned ones.... the suppliers go down... they could ALL go down.

The cost of failure is truly greater than the cost of a bailout!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

So what about all the investment banks that got $700 billion plus? They didnt have a business plan at all except take advantage of people who couldnt afford the houses they WANTED and couldnt pay their mortage. They used HORRIBLE ethics to loan to people outside their means with an ARM loan and then jacked up the percentage on the loan after they have lived there for 4-5 years. What about them? They truly get BAILED out. Yes, they DONT have to pay a SINGLE cent of that money back. EVER.

The big 3 want a LOAN. The only way to get a low percentage loan is to go directly to the money makers in D.C.

So what about that?

 

The bailout doesn't allow them to cut the UAW out, congress will also put restrictions on the money - i.e. must start making super green cars that are eco-friendly which will already add on top of the ridiculous CAFE standards and other unreasonable legislation they have to meet by 2020. Giving them "loans" will solve what?? you will see them go under in a year after the loans are given to them

those numbers are outrageously inflated. You are unbelievable if you think the automotive market is what's holding up are economy and if they go under the country goes into a depression. The automakers have been in the sh*t can for awhile now and this isn't going to stop it. Business is survival of the fittest and if you guys think that filing for bankruptcy protection is the end of a business, you don't know what your talking about.

You obviously needed to read what I said about no one should have gotten the bailout money. Secondly, you have no idea what your talking about. Those banks with a "bad business plan" were forced to loan to people who couldn't pay them back. Its called the Community Reinvestment Act, started by Carter and was sent snowballing under Clinton. The companies were forced to lend to them!!!! Then freddie and fannie guaranteed those loans so everyone thought they were kosher. The executives under freddie and fannie (which are both 1/2 govt owned..... do we see a trend here???????) were given bonuses based on the number of loans they backed, not based on if those loans were legitimate. Thus the executives made millions while they backed flawed/worthless paper causing a SUB PRIME housing crisis. Sub prime means these loans were likely to default... read that slowly so you understand it. Not to mention all the people who were buying houses they couldn't afford. (like buying a 250k house and not putting any money down)

You haven't got the slightest clue on the economic conditions right now and you are doing the typical finger pointing. Its BIG BAD businesses that are at fault, did you ever think that any of those foreclosures are also the people who signed the contracts' fault??? No you didn't because its so easy to look the other way and see and what you want to see.

Secondly, two wrongs don't make a right. This bailout money won't solve any of the big 3's problems and NOBODY should be getting bailed-out. The problems are with their management and the UAW, neither of which is going away. And do you actually think the govt has this money? No they don't, they just print more off because of the ridiculous debt were in, which further hurts all of us because the dollar will keep falling with less buying power.

to quote reagan "government isn't the solution to our problem, government is the problem." There should NEVER be ownership of private companies by our government, our founding fathers are turning in their graves. This isn't capitalism and it will hurt this country. Do we have a free market anymore if we allow companies to NOT FAIL? makes no sense

p.s. In no way do I want the big 3 to go down, as I give them all my business... but you can't stop a train wreck by hitting the brakes in the last 10 feet

 

The problem with the "100B<200B" argument is that you are assuming that the Big 3 are suddenly going to become profitable with 100B in new money. These companies have been trending down for years. Giving... sorry, loaning them a ton of money and hoping they've "learned their lesson" is a steep assumption.

One way or another, all of our budgets are about to get a little bit tighter as this scenario plays out.

 

I'm a loyal American Citizen, I fly my red white and blue, I vote, I have no problem giving up my seat to a vet, I donate money to VFW, I have no problem saying the pledge or allegence.
But why should I buy an over priced car that has a horrible track record? Why should I conceed to lesser, when the UAW won't?
My familys Toyota was made here, by Americans, so I dont' see your point.

Where was yoru comptuer made? Your TV? Your Shoes? Your cell phone? This idea of "buy American to save America" is a great feel good phrase but we are in a golbal ecomony and that idea donesn't work as nicely or as easily as it sounds.

My company just closed a plant down in Nebraska that has been there for 70 years. Why? We're not seeing any more money from moving it to China, my paycheck didn't get any bigger. We had to do it because YOU/Us the consomers wanted cheap qaulity products. Sure everyone says "oh I only buy American" But from research that we have done in our catagories (and I'm sure other companies have done the same research), consumers think with their wallets. When they can get product A for 25 bucks and get the same China tool, with the same quality, for 15, they are going to buy the China tool, plain and simple cut and dry. Say all you want American made matters, and in maybe some things it does, but in our business, it doesn't mean squat. Sure people would like to have American made but cash in the pocket means alot more. Having a couple extra bucks for their vacation to the islands/Disney/the beach is more appealing.

People use to work hard for things and save up and saw not only value but pride in saving to obtain something. Now a days people expect things, and this mind set is one of the number one reasons why things are the way they are.

So to end this, please don't infer that I am any less of an American because I don't think I should have to buy a car (or anything for that matter) from a failing comany with a horrible business plan, who has done nothing about it. Maybe you should write the Big 3 and tell them they are less American because they have been producing an inferior product for the past 10-15 years and their loyal consumers have moved on, and they are only now seeing the error of their ways.

 

Theres a lot of jobs at risk if they fail.

Is a bailout the good answer or the right answer?
Is letting over a million people get laid off a good answer or a right answer?

its picking the lesser of the 2 evils on this one which would be the bail out

 

i do think the big 3 should go away but i dont want the millions of workers lose a job, maybe they can downsize and not have so many brands, nissan has 2 brands honda has 2 brands toyota has 2 brands anyone see a similarity here??? maybe our american c.e.o.'s should be more focused on 2 brands instead gm has 8 brands ford has 5 brands i think our c.e.o.'s watched the movie field of dreams and thought if you build it they will come..... well now gm has the cost and overhead of 8 different brands!!!! i think their mind is on greed instead of building a better vehicle

i think these companies are run by people that are greedy and too wealthy and care more about golfing with their ceo buddies than they care about the company they are in charge of

i have driven american vehicles since i was 16yrs old and i swore by them.... but in the last year i have bought a honda and a toyota and i have to tell you they are the best vehicles i have ever owned..... best mpg, most power, best handling, more features, more safety, alot more reliable, and higher build quality than all the american vehicles i've owned, better fit and finish from the door to the dash just everything is perfect compared to all the chevy's i have owned

i think thats cuz the amount of research and development time the japanese have while american c.e.o.'s are spending their time on the golf course instead

 

agreed bjjblackbelt... popa pork- I agree with you on most things, but the new CTS, malibu, and all trucks american trucks/large SUVs are very competitive and I think compete and/or beat foreign competitors cars (especially american trucks and large SUVs). However, I think it was too little, too late. Had these great vehicles came out 4 years ago, the big 3 might be in better shape but they have waited too long and in this economy, no matter how good your cars are on one is buying right now.

so I think there are good american vehicles to had, but its too late in the game.

another problem is their management/executives. People say Wagoner and his people should resign, but who would fill their shoes??? Whoever does needs to be very,very familiar with the auto market and a stellar ground-up builder.... and that is very hard to come by. There is no easy fix right now, but loaning them money doesn't address any of the issues

 

"However, I think it was too little, too late. Had these great vehicles came out 4 years ago, the big 3 might be in better shape"

A day late and a dollar short (well a crap load of dollars short)

 

lol, that's the motto for the big 3

 

So if you were going to give a buddy $2000 but KNEW he couldnt give it back you would still do it. Oh, wait, you're going to be forced to give them money. Im sorry that is BS. Nobody has to loan ANYBODY money if they arent capable of paying it back. I know exactly what sub prime housing loans are. Maybe you need to get your head out of the clouds and stop trying to educate everybody and make them think your opinion is right.

Could say the EXACT same thing at you. There is finger pointing in any type of environment. I just choose to do it towards the politicians that beg for money from the government to build foreign factorys in some states yet blame the big 3 for their own demise and wont loan them anything.

I agree on this one. The train wreck was started with the finanical firms and Freddie and Fannie being completely retarded with their decisions and handling of money and mortages.

 

then let toyota bail them out ... UAW took advantage of the company, upper management failed.... it's a PRIVATE SECTOR BUSINESS!

Guess what... you make stupid decisions ... gotta learn to live with them

And the UAW needs a wakeup call... both management and the line worker making ridiculous money to do an unskilled job


GM especially is just too screwed up... they're going to need more money from the government ... how is it they sold more cars than toyota yet had huge losses in profits? UAW and poor management

 

1) That's PURELY a matter of subjectivity and opinion, I do not believe you'd be buying an overpriced or inferior product with a horrible track record.
2) Even if it were a 'lesser' product (it's not), some of those veterans you speak of have SACRIFICED THEIR LIVES in some cases for our freedom/way of life...and yet you can't step up and buy a mere $25k car to try and contribute a little? Is that really too much to ask?
As a good American you still support your military and country even if you might disagree with some of your government's decisions or "business plans" because it's FOR THE GREATER GOOD, so why is this so much different?




My computer was $350.00, my TV was $500.00, my shoes were $65.00 and my cell phone was actually free with the plan I have.
My GM/Chevrolet Corvette was $49,000.00.
Toyota Camry's are $26, 000.00+ and a BMW 3 series is $40,000.00+, etc. etc.




So wait, you buy a Toyota and I buy a GM or Ford...am I now any less of an American for doing so?

And I sure hope you (or anyone else) are not relying on Toyota to take up the slack in all of this (be it your personal business or the U.S. auto industry) because it ain't gonna happen.