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Old 04-06-2009, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ULTIMATEORANGESS
ill still never feel sorry for the big three. they put themselves in the position to have to deal with unions so now they have to live with it.
Wrong, now the UAW has to deal with it because GM is gonna file C11 and benefits, pensions, jobs and careers will be lost not in small part because of the greed of the union negotiators and the innability of the GM negotiators to stand up to the union. In either case both parties are responsible for the lack of foresight in their decisions.
Like I said before, companies and unions are not corrupt, PEOPLE are. I don't know enough about the proceedings that took place but from an outside perspective it looks like the Union sent vultures and walked all over GM at the negotiating table.

Everything has consequences and now both parties (not to mention the rest of America) will suffer from it.
Old 04-06-2009, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ULTIMATEORANGESS
you seem to cry for the big three all the time along with others. tough **** they cant find good negotiators. and who said anything about taking advantage? wtf are you talking about?

but please feel free to explain to me how its the UAWs fault GM sells less than half of many vehicles they did at their peak production.

id love to see this explanation.
You said that it's the UAW's fault GM sells less than half as many vehicles as they did at their peak production, nobody else did. It's not on anyone to explain your fabricated assumptions and statements. GM is failing for many reasons and their relationship with the UAW's is one of those reasons.
Old 04-06-2009, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Spoolin
Wrong, now the UAW has to deal with it because GM is gonna file C11 and benefits, pensions, jobs and careers will be lost not in small part because of the greed of the union negotiators and the innability of the GM negotiators to stand up to the union. In either case both parties are responsible for the lack of foresight in their decisions.
Like I said before, companies and unions are not corrupt, PEOPLE are. I don't know enough about the proceedings that took place but from an outside perspective it looks like the Union sent vultures and walked all over GM at the negotiating table.

Everything has consequences and now both parties (not to mention the rest of America) will suffer from it.

my point was that you missed was that if the big three treated their employees fairly the wouldnt have a union to deal with in the first place.

yes both sides will have to pay. but as ive said repeatedly GM and others pay people well to negotiate so excuse if i dont shed a tear for them.
Old 04-06-2009, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Spoolin
You said that it's the UAW's fault GM sells less than half as many vehicles as they did at their peak production, nobody else did. It's not on anyone to explain your fabricated assumptions and statements. GM is failing for many reasons and their relationship with the UAW's is one of those reasons.

wrong. i asked a question. simple really. but you choose to make more out of it then it should be.

so you disagree GM and others havent lost marketshare and production isnt down?
Old 04-06-2009, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Spoolin
You said that it's the UAW's fault GM sells less than half as many vehicles as they did at their peak production, nobody else did. It's not on anyone to explain your fabricated assumptions and statements. GM is failing for many reasons and their relationship with the UAW's is one of those reasons.
Yet GM is still the #2 auto producer in the world. Dont you think its funny that gm sells cars like a ************ in countries that dont use the UAW?


Dont you find it funny when 2nd place is in serious trouble.

Has pepsi ever been in trouble next to coke?

Burger King next to McDonalds?
Old 04-06-2009, 03:02 PM
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what i shouldve asked how GM has lost about half of its marketshare not production. i guess its the UAWs fault?
Old 04-06-2009, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ULTIMATEORANGESS
you seem to cry for the big three all the time along with others. tough **** they cant find good negotiators. and who said anything about taking advantage? wtf are you talking about?

but please feel free to explain to me how its the UAWs fault GM sells less than half of many vehicles they did at their peak production.

id love to see this explanation.
what the hell are you talking about?? I HAVE NEVER CRIED FOR THE BIG THREE!! all you do is assume things... I said this 10 times, but here it is for you again.... Failing companies don't deserve to be saved or "bailed out," they are failing for a reason, if your business makes bad decisions then others will gladly take your market-share.

love to see an explanation for what?? You don't even know what your arguing. Part of the reason for GM's fall is the UAW, part of the reason is because they invested too heavily in trucks/SUV's, part of the reason is management was sub-par. Bottom line, UAW was just another nail in GM's coffin... something you can't seem to grasp. I've never said the UAW is the sole reason for GM's decline, quit trying to put words in my mouth and trying to tell me what I said
Old 04-06-2009, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Spoolin
What America needs is educated, intelligent, informed, rational, un-baised people who try to see both sides of arguments, discussions and disagreements. People who try to solve problems rather than try to bury them with sarcasm and idiocy. Basically what America needs is less people like YOU!
Wow do you even have a brain Serious? You have no idea what America needs you must of voted for Obama, you sir is what is wrong with America.
Old 04-06-2009, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by formulajunky
Wow do you even have a brain Serious? You have no idea what America needs you must of voted for Obama, you sir is what is wrong with America.
How is being educated and making rational decisions bad for America? What are you going to base your decisions on if it's not accurate and complete information and a rational thought process? You say he doesn't know what America needs, so I guess that you do. Would you like to share it with the class?

FYI, I didn't vote Obama and think his plan of borrowing and spending to fix the problem of too much borrowing and spending is idiotic at best.
Old 04-06-2009, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ChaseSS
what the hell are you talking about?? I HAVE NEVER CRIED FOR THE BIG THREE!! all you do is assume things... I said this 10 times, but here it is for you again.... Failing companies don't deserve to be saved or "bailed out," they are failing for a reason, if your business makes bad decisions then others will gladly take your market-share.

love to see an explanation for what?? You don't even know what your arguing. Part of the reason for GM's fall is the UAW, part of the reason is because they invested too heavily in trucks/SUV's, part of the reason is management was sub-par. Bottom line, UAW was just another nail in GM's coffin... something you can't seem to grasp. I've never said the UAW is the sole reason for GM's decline, quit trying to put words in my mouth and trying to tell me what I said
BS. you cry about it all the time. youre a ******* anti UAW cheerleader. face it. poor leadership,subpar quality at least until recently caused the big three to lose sales to foreign competition. thats the MAJOR reason for their failure and NONE of it is UAW related.
Old 04-06-2009, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ULTIMATEORANGESS
...NONE of it is UAW related.
If you really believe that, you're 10x worse than he is. Flat out delusional is what you are.

The top reasons for GM's current situation:

1) Trade agreements which put foreign manufacturers at a major advantage.
2) The UAW.
3) Management that failed to address reason #2 twenty years ago.

The cars GM sells or has sold have almost nothing to do with their current situation. Keep in mind they are still the number two auto manufacturer in the world. What makes them number 2? Sales. They are not in this situation because of lack of sales. They may be losing marketshare to other automakers, but that has little to do with why we are paying for them to operate at this point. They sell plenty of cars. You may say "well if they're selling so many cars, then why aren't they making any money?". The answer to that, of course, is legacy costs. They don't make any money per unit sold, in fact, they LOSE money on each unit sold thanks to legacy costs. So even if they sold cars at three times the rate of Toyota, they'd be no better off...in fact they'd be worse off because they'd be losing MORE money. Now where do these legacy costs come from? See #2 on the list above.
Old 04-06-2009, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ULTIMATEORANGESS
BS. you cry about it all the time. youre a ******* anti UAW cheerleader. face it. poor leadership,subpar quality at least until recently caused the big three to lose sales to foreign competition. thats the MAJOR reason for their failure and NONE of it is UAW related.
no point arguing with an idiot.... I just mentioned several things that contributed to the big 3's downfall and you ignore it and hear what you want every time. GM's costs were way too high (due in part to the UAW, among other things). You put no blame on the UAW. Useless arguing with you, even though you have yet to make one logical argument and obviously have no comprehension of how to run a business.

And find one post were I am 'crying' about losing the big 3, they deserve to go under and the UAW with them. Ford will stay afloat for little while longer and they will most likely get my business, hopefully they can manage to survive
Old 04-06-2009, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Blakbird24
If you really believe that, you're 10x worse than he is. Flat out delusional is what you are.

The top reasons for GM's current situation:

1) Trade agreements which put foreign manufacturers at a major advantage.
2) The UAW.
3) Management that failed to address reason #2 twenty years ago.

The cars GM sells or has sold have almost nothing to do with their current situation. Keep in mind they are still the number two auto manufacturer in the world. What makes them number 2? Sales. They are not in this situation because of lack of sales. They may be losing marketshare to other automakers, but that has little to do with why we are paying for them to operate at this point. They sell plenty of cars. You may say "well if they're selling so many cars, then why aren't they making any money?". The answer to that, of course, is legacy costs. They don't make any money per unit sold, in fact, they LOSE money on each unit sold thanks to legacy costs. So even if they sold cars at three times the rate of Toyota, they'd be no better off...in fact they'd be worse off because they'd be losing MORE money. Now where do these legacy costs come from? See #2 on the list above.

sales are down 50%. wtf are you talking about? theyre not selling so many vehicles. if you cant see this youre delusional.

they dont sell vehicles. they have to give them away to move them. again. every time i look im seeing rebates and 0% financing because cars sit. thats why they lose money on most vehicles sold.
Old 04-06-2009, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ChaseSS
no point arguing with an idiot.... I just mentioned several things that contributed to the big 3's downfall and you ignore it and hear what you want every time. GM's costs were way too high (due in part to the UAW, among other things). You put no blame on the UAW. Useless arguing with you, even though you have yet to make one logical argument and obviously have no comprehension of how to run a business.

And find one post were I am 'crying' about losing the big 3, they deserve to go under and the UAW with them. Ford will stay afloat for little while longer and they will most likely get my business, hopefully they can manage to survive


good job name calling. grow up. ive never not held the UAW not partly responsible.
im not looking up your posts you know damn well weve had this discussion over and over and you fail to answer my questions.

why dont you go buy a jap car? youd be happier since its built by non union labor.
Old 04-06-2009, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ULTIMATEORANGESS
ive never not held the UAW not partly responsible
okay??......
thats the MAJOR reason for their failure and NONE of it is UAW related.


you fail to answer my questions.
ask away buddy
Old 04-06-2009, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ChaseSS
okay??......





ask away buddy

again you fail to comprehend. i said the reasons i listed arent UAW related. not the UAW is partly responsible for the big threes problems. understand now? probably not.


ill ask you again for the fifth time. how are declining sales and marketshare loss the fault of the UAW?

good job trying to chop up my posts but you failed.
Old 04-06-2009, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ULTIMATEORANGESS
again you fail to comprehend. i said the reasons i listed arent UAW related. not the UAW is partly responsible for the big threes problems. understand now? probably not.


ill ask you again for the fifth time. how are declining sales and marketshare loss the fault of the UAW?

good job trying to chop up my posts but you failed.
because as their market-share and sales decline their costs only rise!!! Their labor costs are outrageous for unskilled labor, I'll quit arguing with you and just post up sources and you can read for yourself

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_606661.html

UAW's 'legacy' at GM

By Ralph R. Reiland

Monday, January 12, 2009

General Motors lost $10.6 billion in 2006. GM lost another $38.7 billion in 2007, the largest annual loss in automotive history. Through the third quarter of 2008, GM lost another $21.2 billion.

On Sept. 24, 2007, a year during which GM lost an average of $3.2 billion per month, the United Auto Workers launched a national strike against the company, ordering the shutdown of 80 GM plants in the United States. More than 73,000 UAW-represented factory workers walked off the job and hit the picket lines.

The UAW said that GM had failed to address job security issues during negotiations.

"No one wants to see GM go down the tubes," said picketing Jim Brown. "But we have to keep our standard of living, and GM is going to have to cooperate."

GM's labor cost for a factory worker at the time was $71 per hour, with $27 per hour going to current workers and the remainder made up of costs for pensions and health care for retirees. If archaic work rules and other contract mandates reduced productivity at GM's plants by half, the company's real labor costs were $142 per hour of work counting retiree costs and $54 per hour for current labor.

On Feb. 26, 2008, a UAW strike at five American Axle plants, a key GM supplier and the sole axle supplier for the Chevrolet Tahoe and GMC Yukon, stopped or slowed production at 30 of GM's North American factories and crippled GM's pickup truck and SUV production throughout the United States.

"The American Axle strike cost GM $800 million in the first three months of the year and 100,000 vehicles of lost production, which GM said was mostly felt in fleet sales to commercial customers," reported the Detroit News on May 12, 2008. "The automaker on Thursday pledged up to $200 million to American Axle to help end the dispute. The money would be used to pay for buyouts, early retirement and cash incentives to get workers who stay to accept lower wages."

That's a billion dollars, extracted out of GM to buy labor peace at a plant they didn't own.

Seven weeks later, on April 17, a UAW-ordered work stoppage over a work rule dispute at GM's Lansing Delta plant in Michigan halted production of the Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia and Buick Enclave.

Less than three weeks later, on May 5, 2008, workers walked off the job at GM's Kansas City plant over work rules and seniority disputes. "The United Auto Workers union struck -- literally -- General Motors where it hurt the most, at the automaker's Kansas City factory that builds the fast-selling Chevrolet Malibu, already in tight supply," reported Edmunds AutoObserver.

With the Kansas City plant handling the bulk of Malibu production, the UAW strike was called four months after Malibu won the North American Car of the Year award at the North American International Auto Show.

As one of GM's few success stories in recent decades, the 2008 sales of Malibu in January, February and March were 110 percent greater than in the same quarter in 2007, with Malibu cutting into the market shares of Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.

General Motors, in short, had finally produced a car that the public really wanted and the guys walked out.

Stopping production of a hot-selling, profitable model at a time of declining auto sales and rising levels of red ink is "stupidity of the highest order" on the part of the UAW, said David Cole, chairman of the Center for Automotive Research.

On July 16, 2008, the UAW called a strike against a Johnson Controls plant in Tennessee that supplies GM with consoles and seats for the Chevrolet Traverse crossover vehicle. "The strike has the potential to disrupt production of the Traverse, one of the new vehicles GM is counting on to offset declining sales of its full-size trucks and SUVs," explained Reuters reporter Kevin Krolicki.

"We want a flawless launch for this vehicle," UAW Local 1853 President Mike O'Rourke told Reuters, "but it's going to be with union seats and union consoles."

And so, at last count, GM has lost $70 billion since 2004, the number of UAW members has been cut in half since 2004 at GM, Chrysler and Ford, from 300,000 to 150,000, and the rest of us are now stuck with the tab for the rescue.
I tried to underline and highlight the key parts of that article to help ease you lol. Sometimes people forget that businesses are on this earth to create PROFIT, UAW and other factors cut their profit dramatically to where now they only operate in loss
Old 04-06-2009, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ChaseSS
because as their market-share and sales decline their costs only rise!!! Their labor costs are outrageous for unskilled labor, I'll quit arguing with you and just post up sources and you can read for yourself

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_606661.html



I tried to underline and highlight the key parts of that article to help ease you lol. Sometimes people forget that businesses are on this earth to create PROFIT, UAW and other factors cut their profit dramatically to where now they only operate in loss
while work stoppages temporaily can slow sales thats not the main reason why customers are going to foreign competion. if youre trying to tell me the big three has lost millions of sales because of a few strikes you fail again. youre trying to tell me GM having to eliminate brands is because of strikes? i dont think so.
Old 04-06-2009, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ULTIMATEORANGESS
why dont you go buy a jap car? youd be happier since its built by non union labor.
You are a COMPLETE moron my god!!!
You really just spout BS because you are in fact ignorant and happy to be so am I not right?! Since when do Japanese auto makers not have union labor? Where do you get this information? What is your source, where do you come up with this information? Please link to me where you gained this knowledge.

Unfortunately waiting for you to come up with your sources would be futile because it's evident you speak from your ***. Japanese automakers do in fact have unionized labor force...shocker huh? Why you hating on japan anyways? AMERICA has caused this world recession and you know what other countries are doing to solve their crumbling markets? They are working together, apparently your solution is protectionism...CLASSIC we **** over every country with a major economy in this world and apparently your solution is to tell them all to **** off.

This is how GM should have responded at the negotiating table with the UAW...
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...aY&refer=japan


You are not understanding what we are saying, try to read every word rather than just between the lines. We are NOT against union labor, what we are against is how the UAW is run and the contracts that have been established. That is just ONE of the REASONS why GM is failing among many others.
Old 04-06-2009, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by formulajunky
Wow do you even have a brain Serious? You have no idea what America needs you must of voted for Obama, you sir is what is wrong with America.
Was that it? I thought you made a post because you had something to contribute...apparently not.


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