mzoomora

iTrader: (36)

In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.


I know, a little extreme, but still applies.

Breathing Fire

I meant no offence to you heavy6.0. All I am saying is that the unions have outlived their need. I totally agree with you when you say buy ameircan. I have always owned american cars and I always will. Oh and by the way I may start buying ford in the future because I will not buy a car from a company that is owned or partally owned by the govt. I refuse it is completely against everything I belive in. Trust me I meant no offence. Oh and if I couldn't have a chevy or gmc truck it would be an F150. Wouldn't even waste my time on anyone elses junk.

I also have to agree with all the toyota thumpers who say they would buy american if the quality was as good as bs as stated above. GM and Ford have both made huge leaps in quality and as someone who works for a major rental company, I won't name which, I disagree when people say imports are better quality. Flat out bs imo. Besides the shining light of quality "toyota" just had a downgrade of quality last I checked. I have driven them all. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mitsu. Never in my right mind would I ever own any. Bland no fun grocery getters on their best day. If thats all you like though then go for it. I just prefer an american v6 with some go and the same fuel econ as the import. Plus I don't have to hear the buzz from the engine compartment.

I meant no offence to anyone trust me. Just letting loose because my dreams seem to be slipping away by the day.

2002 SS #476

iTrader: (2)

Since they are keeping are tax money, does that mean we can pick a car up off their lot since we already paid for one?

wabmorgan

NO.... might seem like you could but.... problem with free car theory is... your "share" as a taxpayer on a mathematical basis doesn't workout anywhere close to the price of a car. In Chrysler's case..... your share is about $70 per tax payer. In GM's case is is about $160 per tax payer.
If they go under.... maybe you'd get a free tire or something for your share.

In order for everyone to qualify to get a new car for "free".... which wouldn't be free.... you'd be paying in the form of taxes.... GM, Chrysler, (and maybe soon Ford) would have to borrowed $3,000,000,000,000. That $3 Trillion. That's based on $30K per car for 100Million tax payers.

(That's all based upon approximately 100 Million people that actually pay taxes.)(Also don't forget we don't all pay the same amount of taxes and your share goes down further still.... unless you pay a hell of a lot of taxes.)(If you add in the other 200 million that don't pay taxes... your share would be even less.)

kain01

I'll happily answer that, I own the same piece of crap foreign made stuff that we are forced to buy because our manufacturing companies were forced to close their doors due to people not buying American. I check EVERYTHING I buy, and if I have the option to buy American I get it. 75+% of the time I don't have a choice.

And people can argue the "oh they don't make a car I want" bullshit all they want, but the fact is they have been making cars just as good as the Japanese competition for about 6 years now. In fact GM has taken NA car of the year and MT car of the year the last two years running (2007 & 2008).

I cannot however disagree with the UAW and ridiculous salaries part. I have worked for the glass maker who makes the windshields, door windows, etc. for Toyota's Camry and I made 12 buck an hour to stand next to a glass furnace and solder defrost tips onto the back glass of the Avalon. 12 dollars an hour, throw in benefits and I might've been making my current salary, hell my federal job now including benefits comes to half of what the AVERAGE GM employee makes, and only a handful of engineers I know at Lexmark make more than they do. There is no excuse for paying a salaried worker that kind of money and give them health benefits to boot. I'm sorry if I offend someone (bound to happen when sharing my opinion), but I can honestly say that I make too much money for the **** I do, and the **** I did for 12 bucks an hour probably wasn't worth that.

Ultimately yes had people continued to buy American, a)we would not be in this recession, b)the last remnants of manufacturing in America would not be threatened like we are now.

Unfortunately you can't undo the past so now we simply live with the choices our parents and if your old enough you made. Thanks, I love the inheritance.

Blakbird24

iTrader: (24)

Bottom line is he's right. You have a point, but he's still right. By purchasing imports, we were strengthening the competition and weakening our own automakers. It doesn't matter who you blame for your decision, if you bought an import, you contributed to this mess. You can try to put the blame on american automakers, but that's just passing the buck, because they can put it right back on you and say "if Americans were buying our cars, we'd have the money to make them better"... and it just goes back and forth while the bottom line remains that your money went overseas.

Spoolin

iTrader: (8)

Speaking of passing the Buck...Don't pass it to the consumer. If you run a business and your not selling your product than guess what...your a failure as a businessman. GM failed US... WE did not fail them. Everyone here that plays into the whole BS of buying American is a hypocrite because I bet you %80 percent of those people have owned or have bought a Nike, Adidas, or Reebok pair of shoes. If it's all about being Pro-american than everyone should have a pair of New Balance, which I'm sure not everyone owns.
I would never buy a piece of crap because a company is too disinterested in producing a competitive product.

Spoolin

iTrader: (8)

And this mess wasn't caused by those who bought imports it was caused by the morons who took out home loans that they had no possible way of repaying. A bank is not your mommy and just because they say you can take out that much money doesn't mean you should.

wabmorgan

It's funny the quality perception that people have..... frankly... the foreign makers have very few cars/trucks that even appeal to me.... and none appeal as well as models made by GM.

And I'm not trying be pro-GM there... simply stating what I like/don't like.

Blakbird24

iTrader: (24)

Your just repeating what PapaPork said. Thanks, but I already read it, and responded to it.

This, in reference to our economy as a whole, is right on. I'm not really going to elaborate though since this thread is about american automakers and not the economy as a whole.

The banks didn't put the automakers where they are, legacy costs and foreign competition did.

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

The Soul blame lays on the crooked CEO's of these company's (including the f-ed up banks who should'nt have got a dime either) and their lack of guidence to create and build the best product they could and still willing to take there absurde salary's and bonuses. They should all be hung ,there assets confiscated and diveded up to repay the workers. The Ceo's are the real crooks and the U.S. govt. in bed with them.

TT632

iTrader: (3)

This is making the assumption that we are on a level playing field with our Foreign competitors which we are not. Japan has always had a closed market to Foreign goods. There whole economy is geared on exports. It has served them well and it can work for us. We create the technology and we let the rest of the world copy it and sell it back to us.

Spoolin

iTrader: (8)

You are right about the level playing field assessment. However that has nothing to do with how or why the American companies have lost American consumers. I think, like most here that in the last 3-4 years the quality of cars that GM has been making is as good if not better than what is being imported. They started losing the quality battle with foreign competitors back in the early 80's and it took 15 years for their loyal base of consumers to dwindle to where it is now. And to expect it to climb back to it's dominance in 3-4 years just isn't gonna happen. It will take 10 years of quality cars for GM to win back most of the American public that they have lost. GM created it's image, not us (consumers). They will have to work hard to shed that image and regain an image of quality products. Personally, if it were between two evenly matched cars I would pick GM over import but until lately that was not often the case.
I'm excited with what they have been producing the last 3 years that's for sure. Two of my three favorite cars right now are GM (G8 and CTS-V).

How do you figure?

How do you believe the government should of handled GM?

Jon5212

iTrader: (2)

^^^ The government should have said no... just like the majority of citizens told our representatives NO on the bailouts. But just like the crooks they are they didn't listen.

kain01

So for the last 20 years if everyone was buying American (not just cars) you don't think we'd be in better shape than we are now? How could we not be in better shape if we kept manufacturing jobs here? How could we not be in better shape if more people went to ma and pa shops instead of Wal-Mart? The reason I harp so much on auto company's is because after your mortgage and your kids (or yourself) going through college, it is the largest purchase we make in this country. Buying an import is like sending your kid to college in Japan, it's fine for the Japanese college and possibly for you, but that's as many people as it will benefit.

Any other time in history I'd have said just say no, let them file, but as of now there are so many other companies intertwined with the Big Three that once one of them files, there will be a domino effect. If all three go down, the domino effect continues, and instead of us pulling out of this small recession now, we'll go further down and maybe pull out of it by 2020. Unfortunately right now I see no other option that is cheaper than handing them the money they need to get to 2010, not a good time to be a GM dealership.

Spoolin

iTrader: (8)

No I don't, I don't think our situation would of been much different if everyone was buying American for the last 20 years. Manufacturing jobs would still have gone overseas even if American consumers stayed loyal during the years where GM was building crappy cars because GM sent those jobs overseas due to labor costs...plain and simple, no strings necessary. I am not gonna blame the UAW for bankrupting GM, that lies with Corporate, but I will blame them for pushing GM to outsource their manufacturing. Like it was mentioned earlier if GM didn't have to pay $72/per hour for labor for a guy to turn a bolt then GM wouldn't have outsourced whole assembly plants to Mexico, Canada, etc... It is business sense, all your doing is passing the blame to the consumer again. It's not OUR fault GM is where it is, they made a string of poor decisions from design of it's product line, Union negotiations, all the way to the quality of materials and location of assembly plants. Nike, Hans, and every other company didn't outsource their manufacturing capabilities because they weren't selling enough of their product, and neither did GM.


And to address the second half of your question...America's problem...our problem as a country isn't revenue it's SPENDING. Average Joe makes a buck and then spends $1.50, spending that $1.50 on an inferior American product is not gonna solve the problem, because that isn't the problem.


Agreed.

TT632

iTrader: (3)

complete agreement here.

And for those who say that GM is providing cars that no one is buying is nonsense. You (Exclusive import buyers) may not be buying GM vehicles, but we are. And we are in the majority since GM still out sells every Foreign manufacturer in the USA by a wide margin. You are not the largest Auto manufacturer in the world when if you products are undesirable! In addition, the greatest growth for GM has been in Foreign markets, so they obviously have no problems buying GM vehicles.

The cost to build each vehicle is the issue here. No matter how desirable your vehicle is, when you lose money on each one that is the problem. Cutting cost is the issue at hand!

kain01

We agree on this, just see the outcomes as being different. Money that stays here for R&D regardless of where the cars are outsourced too = more money here in the states. So yeah I'd rather see someone buy a Lexus that was R&D here in the US, than buy a Camry that's manufactured next door, because more money was spent here in the States. I may have exaggerated too much when I said the recession wouldn't have happened, but we would be better off than we are now.

Agreed, but if he threw that 1.50 back into the pool it came from that's at least an extra .50 for the government to use to bail us out. Using it on an inferior Japanese product just throws that .50 into Japan's kiddy pool to bail Toyota when and if they ever need it. Again, it's just a band aid on the overall issue, but still puts us in a better state than we are currently. Basically that .50 American cents is just gone, never to be seen again. May as well be pissing cash away, and after 20 years of doing it it's added up.

kain01

Niemoller was right.

PopaPork

iTrader: (4)

"In addition, the greatest growth for GM has been in Foreign markets, so they obviously have no problems buying GM vehicles" Wait wait wait wait wait. Everyone keeps saying how unfair it is for the US to sell cars over seas, now your saying they have no problem selling over seas? So even if the taxes were higher they are selling cars no matter what, as you say, their greatst growth has been in foreign markets. Now 2+2 doesn't add up at all. Taxes are bad, if we taxed other car companies like the 3 are tax it would be fair, yet we are still selling a boat ton?