unit213

Easy boys...

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

$750 L98 & ULTIMATEORANGESS,

Guys, please take it down a notch. I understand your opinions are strong, everyone has a right to their say (to a point), but the personal attacks need to stop.

This topic is valid, so I'd hate to have to lock the thread, but I will edit/delete posts if this continues to get out of hand.

ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

sorry man.


i respect you so ill go away quietly.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Thank you, but there is no need to go away, debating is fine, just tone it down a bit.

Thanks.

assasinator

IBEW local 1749.

media and republican trash. unions didnt cause anything.

assasinator

whats very clear is the media propaganda has done its job.


jobs have gone overseas because of corporate greed. and our country will not recover until the jobs return.


if you want to work for a dollar a day, you are welcome to. they will gladly pay you that. for me, ill stay organized for collective bargaining and make a good wage for my family. you can go to india.

assasinator

Man its difficult. Non-union folks only THINK they know what is going on. they get their opinions from news. our country is at the breaking opint, unions have never been weaker, and we are still catching the blame. if it wasnt unions taking the blame, it would be race, or religion the corporations would use.

Latch

iTrader: (8)

Regardless of what you think of unions and Obama, we should ALL be able to agree this is a GOOD thing for America. We cannot maintain our status as a superpower if we can't figure out how to have an auto industry.

XxGarbSxX

You union guys sure do seem to excel at politics, you inject it into everything. Union folks are delusional if they think unions help business, manufacturing, and the economy as a whole. How are demanding upper-middle class wages for working class jobs going to do anything other than influence companies to take their jobs across borders? We're not suggesting that everyone work for $1 per day, only that $30/hr is unreasonable for a job on an assembly line. Union labor wasn't the only reason GM was unprofitable, but they most certainly didn't help the situation.

Now stop your whining and get back to work.

KW4life06

iTrader: (12)

As useless as this post?

wannabess00

iTrader: (1)

Actually those jobs paying what they have are what built this countries middle class. There are millions of American workers that are connected with the auto industry in one way or another. And when those jobs pay a living wage plus good benefits to workers then it becomes money thats put into the economy, puts good roofs over peoples heads, food on the table and kids through college. I think we need to understand that theres a big difference between a person earning $60k vs a person making $160k and stop equating the two. GMs ability to profit is horrifically complicated and difficult to over come. And I for one am more than enthused at this as well as the turn around they have made in the last year.

Element

iTrader: (5)

Yer ******' insane if you think the union auto industry "built" the nation's middle class. Last I checked, the middle class was around long before cars were even a dream in someone's mind, and while the auto industry does source parts from a lot of companies, they're not nearly the backbone (let alone appendix) of the American economy any more, nor were they ever. Your wage analogy could be applied across almost every career in the US, but it would be utterly unsustainable in the long run, and would simply force even more companies to outsource everything, rather than just manufacturing.

I'm not going to get into the union debate, but I find it sad that I can buy a "foreign" car that was built in the US with US parts by US workers making fair wage for their job, that didn't require my tax money to keep the company running, while I can't buy a single "domestic" that falls into those categories.

If it weren't for the utter incompetence when it comes to foreign-brand trucks, I'd have nothing to do with GM, Dodge, and Ford. Welfare for individual millions of people isn't cool, but it's perfectly fine for a huge company? Not really. "Too big to fail" is nothing but a bullshit myth perpetuated by the people who want to keep the fucked-up economic system that landed us in the mess we're in right now.

wannabess00

iTrader: (1)

Then you checked inaccurate sources. Wealth inequality and inner city poverty was a major issue in the early 20th century. The average family in highly populated areas lived, primarily in apartment housing. The graph scale neighborhoods and homes we all know of today never existed until the late 40s and 50s, And even then they were not usually large enough to accommodate to the number living in it. The industrial revolution had never been very inclusive to the working class either and the Coolidge Administration did little to aid the working class during its time with a good economy. Workers demanding a fair share of the profits allowed for several million Americans to buy homes and cars and other goods and other factors like post-war America allowed us to expand out and create more wealth and consumption and ironically is what is now bankrupting us now and contributing to our modern boom n bust economy

SparkyJJO

iTrader: (11)

My opinion is this - Unions were created, and needed, for a good reason. BUT, many got too big for their britches and kept on demanding more and more, above and beyond reasonable, and that's where trouble set in.

What really irks me are the ones that "protect" slobs on the job by making sure nobody works "too hard" making others look bad (my brother has 1st hand experience with crap like that). Or, like what happened with my grandpa years ago, the union leader told everyone to limit their productivity so that the company would have to hire more of their guys... well that worked really well, it shut the company down instead

I'm not saying all unions are bad, I'm just saying many got too greedy. And I'm not saying all union workers are greedy lazy bums either. Just pointing out the unions in general today need to do a reality check. Some have, others haven't. UAW, in general, was one that didn't quite get it right away. I think they are now, but it's been slow in coming.. hopefully they've learned this after their ship almost sank.

It'llrun

Eh... The whole GM thing has worn numb on me.
And when they what? Most people connected to the auto industry actually work for automotive parts companies (w/o a union) and MOST don't make anywhere near what the standard line person makes from GM, Ford or Chrysler. Go into your nearest auto parts store and ask how many of those guys make even $15 per hour. Anyone not in management who says they do is either old enough to have been in it for 15+ yrs or is lying, if not both. If $15 is a living wage(and it is), why did so many union workers demand 30+ for so many years?

I'm largely, though not entirely "anti-union" and much of why is because I've seen how that has worked for my retired, elderly parents who WERE union workers. In the end, I feel unions had their place, but their time is done because, along with corporate greed, union greed has cost plenty. I knew a guy who retired from GM in 1985... He made as much RETIRED as he did working. I know another who retired from FoMoCo in 2000... Nearly the same story for him. He's not looking for part time work, that's for sure. The other fella passed away yrs ago. I know even more, but not that I've had in depth conversations with. These guys feel glad they got all they did, but when both were alive, they often commented that it was going to bankrupt the company... Not that they cared, really.

You could by a Ford that's still built in America, by Americans, which was largely designed by the same. They make more than a fair wage in most cases, but hey... That's what unions are for.
What about today? Been through Detroit over the past couple decades? It's atrocious in the heart of America's automobile building sector.

Do they not still?

The biggest problem I have with unions though, is the workers... The reasons are many, so I won't get into them all. Suffice to say, if people are going to demand the most pay, they should also be doing the most work. Most union employees I've known don't even break a sweat at work. That includes those in my own family.

Element

iTrader: (5)

And the working class lived only in those cities that had automobile manufacturing going on?

Post-war industrialism and what we learned about manufacturing during WW2 helped the economy, yeah. Automobile manufacturing was only a small part of that. I'm not debating that it had an impact on the middle class, merely that it didn't "build" the middle class at all.

Element

iTrader: (5)

But how many of those parts are sourced out of the country? The whole "final assembly" sticker on something made entirely of foreign components, and the last bolt put in here in the US so the manufacturer can claim it's "American-made" is nothing but bullshit to me.

Every car manufacturer out there is an international manufacturer when viewed in sum total, and that's what bugs me about the "foreign vs domestic" car arguments. Why is a GM that was built entirely in Canada out of parts from Canada, the US, and Mexico considered a US car, but a Nissan built from parts from the same countries and assembled in the US is considered a foreign car?

I'm from WV, the state that built the first union...they were necessary, years ago, and in isolated cases today, are still viable. The problem occurred when they went from being a consolidation of workers banding together to protest truly unfair wages, unsafe working conditions, etc, and became politically-motivated wage-leeches who bought into entitlement mentality down to the last screw.

I work with a guy whose uncle works at a union elevator manufacturing plant. He's worked there for 40+ years, and his job, in its entirety, is to thread one nut on a bolt. That's it. He sits next to the line with a bucket of nuts, and spins a nut on a bolt as the component comes down the line. Because of his "seniority", he makes over $50 an hour, and gets just under half a year off between his yearly vacation time and sick leave. Seniority, in moderation, is a good thing; but this is a good example of where unions have utterly fucked the shark when it comes to reality.

wannabess00

iTrader: (1)

I now apologize for my earlier remark regarding "unions building the middle class". I had no idea that everyone on here takes everything in literal context. And you do understand that there are an enormous variety of labor unions in existence beyond automotive. The UAW itself represents 3 different divisions of manufacturing as well as other trades. Labor unions played a key role in the countries two biggest industries and economy backbones, during the early 20th century, which was manufacturing and agriculture. And manufacturing included labor agreements for automobile workers (GM,FORD, Packard,ECT), farm equipment (Deere,Ford,Minn-Mol,IH ect), and Mining as well as labor contracts for the truck drivers who hauled these items and formed the TEAMSTERS union. See how this is now expanding beyond just auto plants?

wannabess00

iTrader: (1)

They never did. $28hr was the rate for a tier 1 worker which averages out to around $68ka year. Do I think this is outrageous? No. Do you? Im sure. But I cant control that nor is it my job to care your thoughts on it. All i see is a guy that has money to dump into the economy same as any other.

So lemme make sure I follow you, you'll believe a retired union floor worker thats never seen GMs financial records nor sat at the bargaining table but gives the opinion that lines up best with your narrative and when Dept of Treasury rep. Steven Rattner, whos job it is to observe and organize GMs finances on behalf of the taxpayers, pointedly says that the UAW has little to do with the big 3s troubles, you just toss that suggestion out the window?

It'llrun

I don't disagree, but the fact is, Ford still builds many vehicles in America and we're clearly at the point where "any" portion made in America is a bonus. I remember back to at least 1991, when many radios were made in Brazil, installed into our vehicles and sold as if Delphi (or whatever co in America) did it... Much of why this stuff happened is directly due to union demands, whether or not they admit it.

Jobs get outsourced because the "greedy corporations" don't want to continue paying $30.00 per hour and provide full health care insurance, etc. so that a radio worth 30 bucks can be built. It's NOT just that, of course... The thing many union workers refuse to consider is that the company has to make shortcuts SOMEWHERE in order to continue overpaying the under-worked employee.

Because it matters where the money goes. Buy a GM built entirely in Canada and the profits still go to Detroit. Buy a Honda made in Ohio and the profits go to Japan. Of course, many of those "foreign" parts are foreign sourced too whereas many(not nearly enough) domestic parts are sourced within America.

I agree. I wasn't, however, aware that the 1st union was in WV. It's odd too, since my mothers side of the family lived there from the 1800's till 1955 or so(many still do, just not her and her family before her is all dead).

This type of situation is exactly why I'm "done" with unions. Union people often won't even admit these things unless there's a beer in their hand and they get to braggin'... The problem they don't seem to understand is that it hurts EVERYBODY except that employee and his/her family and, later it will hurt them too, as we've seen in the case of our economy today. When the economy goes south, people lose their jobs. Unnecessary employees will be out of work. That guy you mentioned... should be that employee, but won't be due to seniority and that means it will be someone else, probably the younger, lessor paid person with children at home and a mortgage, etc.