H/C/I 5.0 makes 507rwhp
03-13-2011, 10:38 AM
#81
Why tell us that the LS3 can be purchased for less than MSRP and then in the same post, only state the full list price for the 5L? List for list, or low for low... Not low for one and high for the other. The entire 5L package can be had for about $7600 from what I remember reading... And it's got EFI. Upgrade to EFI with the LS3 and where's the price?
The LS3 can be had fuel injected, carbed, ready to run, or in the same form as the 5.0, ALL of which cost less, and make anywhere from 15 to nearly 100 more horsepower.
I can buy a 480hp fuel injected LS3 at a local dealer for $6400 per GMPP's website. Add another $1000 for everything necessary to control the engine (PCM, harness, sensors, etc) and I've got a running crate for $7400. I would need to spend another $500 for the Ford, and still be down close to 70hp, not to mention an install nightmare.
And in the same level of dress, the LS3 is 415lbs, while the 5.0 is 444lbs.
Last edited by Marc 85Z28; 03-13-2011 at 10:50 AM.
03-13-2011, 12:17 PM
#82
I'm just happy to see Ford being higher up in the food chain now with the 5.0 coyote. It's a good "up" from the 4.6. Better competition equals more fun. And when it comes to what engine is better then another, remember, you can make just about anything more powerful/faster then the next, up to a point.
Just like GM did producing the LS engine, Ford produced an all around better modular engine. What is there to bitch about?
Look at the new 5.0L this way (just as we did when the LS was introduced), an improvement came out, be happy with it!
Just like GM did producing the LS engine, Ford produced an all around better modular engine. What is there to bitch about?
Look at the new 5.0L this way (just as we did when the LS was introduced), an improvement came out, be happy with it!
03-13-2011, 12:28 PM
#83
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Because there's a number of people around these parts that go all elementary school whenever something impressive about a Ford product is posted. A year ago so many on this site wrote off the new 5.0 as a "tapped out" product that would have next to no aftermarket. Now we're seeing 480+rwhp NA setups that still have have room to grow. It's damn impressive for a Ford modular, but there's plenty of people around here that simply can't help but mutter "LSX is still better" every chance they get. IMO it's just backlash to cover up all the ignorance that got spewed before the 5.0 had even hit the market.
03-13-2011, 12:33 PM
#84
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So the morel of the story is add twice as many valves, four times as many cams, and direct injection, and you get more power per cube. Somehow thats better? I wonder how much power could be had only adding a lean burning direct injection to our current ls motors. Not that I really care. I'm pretty satified with the power available with aftermarket parts.
We are comparing engines here not cars. When comparing engines alone, weight and size most certainly matter. The smaller the engine the lower, and closer to the center of the car you can put it, and of course weight is bad for anything. In the real world people are putting LSx engines into their cars (mustangs included) because of size/weight and power.
Last edited by ThisBlood147; 03-13-2011 at 02:48 PM.
03-13-2011, 01:54 PM
#85
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The Ford 5.0 DOES NOT come with ready to run. You still need the PCM, sub-harness, and a few extra sensors. It's your ONLY option, and it ONLY comes from Ford, for $1800!!!!
The LS3 can be had fuel injected, carbed, ready to run, or in the same form as the 5.0, ALL of which cost less, and make anywhere from 15 to nearly 100 more horsepower.
I can buy a 480hp fuel injected LS3 at a local dealer for $6400 per GMPP's website. Add another $1000 for everything necessary to control the engine (PCM, harness, sensors, etc) and I've got a running crate for $7400. I would need to spend another $500 for the Ford, and still be down close to 70hp, not to mention an install nightmare.
And in the same level of dress, the LS3 is 415lbs, while the 5.0 is 444lbs.
The LS3 can be had fuel injected, carbed, ready to run, or in the same form as the 5.0, ALL of which cost less, and make anywhere from 15 to nearly 100 more horsepower.
I can buy a 480hp fuel injected LS3 at a local dealer for $6400 per GMPP's website. Add another $1000 for everything necessary to control the engine (PCM, harness, sensors, etc) and I've got a running crate for $7400. I would need to spend another $500 for the Ford, and still be down close to 70hp, not to mention an install nightmare.
And in the same level of dress, the LS3 is 415lbs, while the 5.0 is 444lbs.
It doesn't matter though, because you're ONLY trying to make the LS look like the easy to choose better deal, which is why you only post the list prices for the 5L while not posting the LS list price AT ALL. List for list, the 5L is far less expensive unless you stick with a carb on it. Going EFI, each needs a harness not sold with either engine. As stated, the 5L can be had for less than list. One could get the entire engine, harness, alternator, pcm for about $7,800.00 delivered.
If they have a Ford to put it in(and millions have), it's an easy choice for most because they'll be able to avoid all the other LS stuff that many GM's already have(making the LS the obvious choice), or at least are more readily adaptable, but Fords don't have and won't need for a Ford engine swap. They'll also get to skip hours of wiring concerns in many cases. There's far more to swapping from one brand to another than to sticking with the same brand engine as vehicle in nearly any case where the manufacturer offers a performance oriented engine.
Ford is NOT the only place to get the 5L harness, by the way. Several companies offer it now for less than Ford has been. That said, I think it's on sale at Ford... if you're interested.
The 480hp engine from the "local dealer" according to GM's site... Great, if you happen to live in Wisconsin... Most of us don't. Of course, it's actually more than 6400 anyway, but not enough to really care. What's notable is, you took ONLY the lowest priced dealer... If you live in Tampa, that "local dealer" price is way more than the one you listed. Food for thought: Nearly as many people live "local" to Tampa as live in ALL of Wisconsin.
I've said it over and over... The LS series is an EXCELLENT engine... That said, it isn't actually the ONLY engine.
03-13-2011, 01:56 PM
#86
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So is it more right to accuse Ford of needing twice as many valves and four times as many cams.........or GM for needing a full extra liter of displacement? Sounds like the same playground argument to me. These two motors make comparable power using two different methods.
We all know, it is what it is... You can buy the tried and true OHV engine, or the tried and true DOHC. That's the reality of it.
Ultimately, the new 5L is just a great engine and haters gonna hate...
03-13-2011, 06:01 PM
#88
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Whatever... The LS2 was rather well done from the start. The LT5 was all but a 1st time effort for GM. Overall though, even that older LT5 can offer havoc against it. I wouldn't be surprised if GM limited the rpm of the LT5 and that was the main reason for "only" 400hp.
I've seen a 4.6L in a Miata... So it's just not a problem worthy of major concern. People who want something badly enough will do what it takes to get it.
If we max out the OHV engine in current form, and have to make it larger to compete with DOHC's, it still gets to a point of not fitting, which is the typical complaint about DOHC's.
They could get more power from a lighter DOHC than the LS9 provides. Remember, this is NO lightweight. 800hp from a SOHC that weighs about the same and has no power adder...
Is the LS9 cheaper... Superchargers aren''t free, even for GM. The LS9 is a $21,000 engine from aftermarket sourcing. JEGS gets nearly 23k for it.
Adding the S/C also increases the overall size of the engine. Not saying it's smaller than a large DOHC, but it's not terribly smaller anymore.
Is the LS9 cheaper... Superchargers aren''t free, even for GM. The LS9 is a $21,000 engine from aftermarket sourcing. JEGS gets nearly 23k for it.
Adding the S/C also increases the overall size of the engine. Not saying it's smaller than a large DOHC, but it's not terribly smaller anymore.
I was never a fan of GM using FI with the Corvette, but its one hell of a setup...
For years we bagged on Ford for "NEEDING" a supercharger to compete... Now that GM is back to their power adders(which they've pretty much used regularly since 1980), it's all good...
Now before I get jumped on because "ZOMG but but but with pully/tune/exhaust/supporting mods that engine will make 1000000hp and drive like stock Y0!!!!" - that will go right back with my argument that manufacturers do NOT push their engines, and aim to make a certain amount of power with the car, not maximum they can get. Ford chose to make 400hp, just like GM chose to make their power numbers the way they did.
I'm debating DOHC capability vs OHC... You're basically debating GM vs Ford.
03-13-2011, 06:09 PM
#89
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Because there's a number of people around these parts that go all elementary school whenever something impressive about a Ford product is posted. A year ago so many on this site wrote off the new 5.0 as a "tapped out" product that would have next to no aftermarket. Now we're seeing 480+rwhp NA setups that still have have room to grow. It's damn impressive for a Ford modular, but there's plenty of people around here that simply can't help but mutter "LSX is still better" every chance they get. IMO it's just backlash to cover up all the ignorance that got spewed before the 5.0 had even hit the market.
So is it more right to accuse Ford of needing twice as many valves and four times as many cams.........or GM for needing a full extra liter of displacement? Sounds like the same playground argument to me. These two motors make comparable power using two different methods. FWIW, it's not like Ford is the only odd-ball carmaker using OHC performance motors these days. So this whole crusade to make Ford's efforts look foolhardy are pretty much in vain. Bottomline? 500+ NA rwhp out of a street-driven OHC V8 is damn respectable....regardless of what anyone is doing with modern pushrod motors.
And what does this argument have to do with what a 5.0L motor in a 2011 Mustang made with X set of mods? Are you arguing that 2011 Mustang owners should be looking to drop an LSX into their car........or that people would be better off buying a 2011 Camaro SS?
03-13-2011, 06:34 PM
#90
Seeing impressive horsepower gains coming from a new modded 5.0 is not surprising at all to me. Especially prior the release of the 5.0, a Ford exec. mentioned they purposely built the bottom-end stout because they knew the aftermarket would be all over the new motor and people would be building these things left and right (from word-of-mouth). This new 5.0 is badass, hands down. Does it mean the LSx now sucks in other words, NO, it just means its badass. Why anyone wants to complain that it does it with 32 valves and 4 cams, that agruement makes no sense.
03-13-2011, 07:51 PM
#91
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Well then just drop a new 5.0 crate motor with c4 into a fox body coupe, painless wiring harness nitrous tune with bolt ons and still pretty much own the road maybe 10 k investment including car. like I said this is a stupid argument with out deep pockets. Drop a head and cammed ls whatever. you are still gonna spend the same $.. to do it right any way. The 5.0 motor will be just as cheap as a used ls motor as soon as more turn up at the bone yard. I guess just pick your poison..In the end it just takes money.
03-13-2011, 10:48 PM
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Both engines were well done from the start, and neither were pushing any limits, seeing that GM didn't want/need more than 400hp for their applications.
Interesting, how much of the car is left after the swap? Got a link?
Seeing that a 7L small block will make more power than what you could possibly need for a street car or a track car (a real track, one with turns) i see no need to "max" anything out.
My concern is more of a long term outlook. I suspect our wonderful gov't. will find a way to remove the OHV V8 in yrs to come, but will take much longer to remove OHC designs.
Besides, why should we think, "This is too much" and quit?
Theoretically, but would it fit? Would it really weigh less? Would it cost less? Would it pass emissions in that form?
I was never a fan of GM using FI with the Corvette, but its one hell of a setup...
I was never a fan of GM using FI with the Corvette, but its one hell of a setup...
GM has done well with power adders for decades now. I'd rather see a turbo, but that's me. The supercharger makes it easier on many levels, to continue meeting gov't. guidelines... so they say. I think it's more of a warranty concern.
Ford was "bagged" for "needing" a supercharger because it was used to compete with a N/A Camaro and made a measly 400hp...
Now before I get jumped on because "ZOMG but but but with pully/tune/exhaust/supporting mods that engine will make 1000000hp and drive like stock Y0!!!!" - that will go right back with my argument that manufacturers do NOT push their engines, and aim to make a certain amount of power with the car, not maximum they can get. Ford chose to make 400hp, just like GM chose to make their power numbers the way they did.
Actually, its sounds like its the other way around.
You're debate has been about the LS all the while, and how it's just better than... The thread began about how the 5L is coming along and the only mention of the LS I recall at the time was to add DI.
Im pretty sure everyone agrees with this, its no doubt an impressive engine. The problem is the Ford fanboys now and them treating it like the second coming of jesus, and trying to rub it in everyones face. Then someone simply counters it with a more powerful LS engine, and the Ford fanboys cry and make excuses.
They're rubbing it in everyones face? That's hardly the case overall. People are RIGHTLY impressed with the 5L.
Trying to "counter" is the real problem here... There's no need, EVEN on LS1tech.com... It is what it is. In coming months and years it will be more than it is today. Such is life. As for "excuses"... I still haven't seen an LS based pony car running anywhere near as quick or fast as even the 4.6L. The LS series, in upgraded form, is duly impressive and it's been said about a millions times here, as expected. That's NOT a valid reason to bash everything else.
03-13-2011, 10:49 PM
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Im pretty sure everyone agrees with this, its no doubt an impressive engine. The problem is the Ford fanboys now and them treating it like the second coming of jesus, and trying to rub it in everyones face. Then someone simply counters it with a more powerful LS engine, and the Ford fanboys cry and make excuses.
But I guess there's not really much room for a discussion about a Ford product like this to go on a GM site without allegiances rearing their head, is there? So I'm just gonna leave it alone. The new 5.0 doesn't need any internet crusaders to defend it. From what I've been seeing on the track the last few months, it seems to be doing just fine without mine or anyone else's help. I just think that it's good to see Ford trying to be competitive for a change, and it's a shame to see people trying to downplay the progress they've made. I'll just leave it at that.
03-14-2011, 01:43 AM
#95
03-14-2011, 07:41 AM
#96
Then what was the point of your poor comparison?!
The LS IS a better choice. More power, less money, less weight, easier install. Find me a running 5.0 for under $7000 - I dare you - prove me wrong.
WTF, are you stupid?! I entered my ZIP code into the GM site, and it said a dealer 45 miles from house is selling the engine for $6425. I didn't look for the lowest price. Just what the closest dealer had it for!
It doesn't matter though, because you're ONLY trying to make the LS look like the easy to choose better deal, which is why you only post the list prices for the 5L while not posting the LS list price AT ALL. List for list, the 5L is far less expensive unless you stick with a carb on it. Going EFI, each needs a harness not sold with either engine. As stated, the 5L can be had for less than list. One could get the entire engine, harness, alternator, pcm for about $7,800.00 delivered.
The 480hp engine from the "local dealer" according to GM's site... Great, if you happen to live in Wisconsin... Most of us don't. Of course, it's actually more than 6400 anyway, but not enough to really care. What's notable is, you took ONLY the lowest priced dealer... If you live in Tampa, that "local dealer" price is way more than the one you listed. Food for thought: Nearly as many people live "local" to Tampa as live in ALL of Wisconsin.
Last edited by Marc 85Z28; 03-14-2011 at 07:47 AM.
03-14-2011, 09:59 PM
#97
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I didn't offer the comparison. I merely responded to it being offered. The fact is, for less than $700 difference, either can be ready to run.
I didn't say the 5L was under 7k running... I didn't even get close to saying that. Yet, THE BOY asks if I'm stupid... Figure it out.
https://store.gmperformanceparts.com/store/SelectProd.do?prodId=7718&redir=true&manufacturer= GM&name=LS3%206.2L&model=<!--19244097-->
That's the LS3... List, $7,570. Part # 19244097(since the link probably won't work)... Offered at a "low price" of $6,361.58 up to $7,340.40... Add about 1k more for the PCM, harness, etc to fit the LS3... Whe're we at? About $7,400... Straight from GM.
Not much less than the 5L for roughly the same power. The 5L can also be had for less than MSRP and I found the entire assembly, including the PCM, harness, etc. and the alternator for about $7,800.00 with free shipping or $15 shipping.
Wanna swap either of those into a late model Mustang? You're spending MORE for the GM power because you'll have to add things that just won't bolt up.
So you SEE... It's not "BETTER" for everyone.
I never said the 5L was available for 7k ready to run... That's TWICE NOW you've needed to be reminded what's going on around you... Not to be too forward, but you ANSWERED my having told you that in the same post you made this childish remark, essentially for your second time. Then, you have the intellect to ask if I'm stupid??? PAY ATTENTION! I'm not here to make you look like a fool... I didn't expect YOU came here to do that either...
I didn't ask what you did... I said, according to the GM website you referred to, it shows ONE at a price of just over $6,4xx and that ONE is in Wisconsin. There were AT LEAST 5 others with higher prices, including several at actual list of $8,750(for the carbed version)... Maybe you live in Wisconsin.... I don't care about that.
Ultimately, this isn't about a swap... This is about how QUICKLY the new 5L eclipsed 500rwhp when starting with just a bit over 400hp. It isn't about how CHEAP a GM engine is. It's about how EASILY the 5L did what it did, time considered. It's not even about a comparison between OHV and DOHC. It's ONLY about how GREAT the new 5L engine is proving to be. And when, NOT IF, we see racers getting 2000hp from them while others STILL CAN'T, you'll still be who you are and others will still be going faster on a better budget.
I think you're just REALLY jealous...
The LS IS a better choice. More power, less money, less weight, easier install. Find me a running 5.0 for under $7000 - I dare you - prove me wrong.
https://store.gmperformanceparts.com/store/SelectProd.do?prodId=7718&redir=true&manufacturer= GM&name=LS3%206.2L&model=<!--19244097-->
That's the LS3... List, $7,570. Part # 19244097(since the link probably won't work)... Offered at a "low price" of $6,361.58 up to $7,340.40... Add about 1k more for the PCM, harness, etc to fit the LS3... Whe're we at? About $7,400... Straight from GM.
Not much less than the 5L for roughly the same power. The 5L can also be had for less than MSRP and I found the entire assembly, including the PCM, harness, etc. and the alternator for about $7,800.00 with free shipping or $15 shipping.
Wanna swap either of those into a late model Mustang? You're spending MORE for the GM power because you'll have to add things that just won't bolt up.
So you SEE... It's not "BETTER" for everyone.
I never said the 5L was available for 7k ready to run... That's TWICE NOW you've needed to be reminded what's going on around you... Not to be too forward, but you ANSWERED my having told you that in the same post you made this childish remark, essentially for your second time. Then, you have the intellect to ask if I'm stupid??? PAY ATTENTION! I'm not here to make you look like a fool... I didn't expect YOU came here to do that either...
WTF, are you stupid?! I entered my ZIP code into the GM site, and it said a dealer 45 miles from house is selling the engine for $6425. I didn't look for the lowest price. Just what the closest dealer had it for!
Ultimately, this isn't about a swap... This is about how QUICKLY the new 5L eclipsed 500rwhp when starting with just a bit over 400hp. It isn't about how CHEAP a GM engine is. It's about how EASILY the 5L did what it did, time considered. It's not even about a comparison between OHV and DOHC. It's ONLY about how GREAT the new 5L engine is proving to be. And when, NOT IF, we see racers getting 2000hp from them while others STILL CAN'T, you'll still be who you are and others will still be going faster on a better budget.
I think you're just REALLY jealous...