What the???? LEAF OUTSELLING VOLT?
07-13-2011, 04:42 PM
#22
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These are niche cars. It is hard ot sell a 40k Volt when you can pic up a car at the same dealership for 20k that still gets 40mpg. 20k buys you a lot of fuel, enough for 160k even at $5/gal. Even at 15k miles per year, you are still into year 10 before the break even happens, and that is not factoring in ANY fuel purchased (for the Volt), electricty costs to charge it for those 10.5 years, potential battery replacement in that time frame, any home chargind station expenses for quicker charging, or opportuninty cost of that 20k invested. The "prestige" of owning a Volt needs to be worth more than all of that to the prospective buyers, which is certianly not the case judging by the sales figures.
07-13-2011, 10:47 PM
#23
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07-14-2011, 05:53 PM
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http://www.gizmag.com/go/4029/
http://www.mack-dump-truck.com/wp-co...kup-Trucks.jpg
http://www.smithelectric.com/
http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/vehi...ifications.php
http://www.zapworld.com/
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/07/12...-into-service/
08-08-2011, 09:38 PM
#27
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By the way... http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/03/n...er-chevy-volt/
Whatever the situation, these "Hybrid" or "Electric" vehicles just aren't selling well. GM says their problem is "extensive retooling" and that begs the question... Why? It's still new, yet they need extensive retooling? Idonno... seems odd, but to have combined sales total with LEAF(4,806) and VOLT(2,870) well under 8,000 units for the year(in America), these cars are anything but a hit... unless it's a crisp uppercut to the chin. By contrast, Chevrolet is selling about 2000 Camaro models per week. On the other hand, NISSAN has sold only a few more 370Z's than it has LEAFs!
Americans clearly don't really want these "choices" and it's a shame GM and NISSAN have dumped so much money into them. Not to be totally outdone, of course, other manufacturers are soon to be on that slow rolling bandwagon.
Whatever the situation, these "Hybrid" or "Electric" vehicles just aren't selling well. GM says their problem is "extensive retooling" and that begs the question... Why? It's still new, yet they need extensive retooling? Idonno... seems odd, but to have combined sales total with LEAF(4,806) and VOLT(2,870) well under 8,000 units for the year(in America), these cars are anything but a hit... unless it's a crisp uppercut to the chin. By contrast, Chevrolet is selling about 2000 Camaro models per week. On the other hand, NISSAN has sold only a few more 370Z's than it has LEAFs!
Americans clearly don't really want these "choices" and it's a shame GM and NISSAN have dumped so much money into them. Not to be totally outdone, of course, other manufacturers are soon to be on that slow rolling bandwagon.
08-09-2011, 06:46 PM
#28
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The biggest problem for lack of sales is sticker shock. The public isn't stupid when it comes to capital cost (purchase price) versus maintenance and upkeep costs (gas, oil changes, etc).
I used a simple (but extreme) example on here a few months ago in another volt thread, assuming costs for a brand new car on both ends:
Even with the federal subsidies the costs just can't pan out. ~$33k for the volt (after fed credit) versus an $18k car like above means you have to drive almost 200k miles to break even. That's if you NEVER burn gas with the volt and assuming no replacement/repair cost for the battery pack. Is anyone on here willing to drive the thing for 10-15 years to see the payback? The general public isn't either.
Same with comparing a $18k car like the cruze to a $25k prius... with gas prices hovering in the $3.50-4.00 range you'd have to drive 100k miles just to break even in terms of fuel costs versus purchase price difference.
IF they ever get these electrics and PHEVs down in the mid 20s sticker price then we'd start to see sales take off. There's a negative-feedback principle for the auto makers though... if everyone starts buying the volt-ish type cars, why produce cars like the cruise, spark, etc at all? Just change them all over to PHEV, preferably with a diesel engine instead of gas.
I used a simple (but extreme) example on here a few months ago in another volt thread, assuming costs for a brand new car on both ends:
The Volt has a 16kw-hr battery pack, of which 10kw-hr is used for propulsion to save battery life (to those unfamiliar with batteries, do some research on cycle life versus depth of discharge, the relationship is exponential not linear). This is for the 40-50 mile all electric-rated range which is around 5 miles per kw-hr.
If you use that 10kw-hr every weekday for your whole trip (didn't need to burn gas), and with electricity at ~$0.11/kw-hr, you will spend $1.10 per day to drive that 40-50 miles all EV-only range. A car that gets ~35 mpg will average ~1.5 gallons of gas per day and at $4/gal will cost you $6 per day to drive the same 40-50 miles. Savings of around 5 bucks a day if you stay in all electric mode with the volt.
Take it over a 100k mile analysis (assuming you replace every 100k), all 100k miles on electricity ($0.11/kw-hr and 5 miles per kw-hr again) is 100,000/5*(cost of electricity per kw-hr) which is around 20,000 kw-hr for ~$2,200 total energy cost. The 35mpg car is simply 100,000/35*(cost of gas) which if gas stuck at $4/gal would be around $11,500 total energy cost (~2,860gal of gas). This scenario is about 13k miles per year and 7.5-8 years for replacement.
So every 100k miles you're looking at saving $9,300 in energy costs. Even if electricity sky-rocketed to 0.20/kw-hr and gas stayed the same $4/gal, the total savings would come down to around $5,000 in today's dollars.
Looking at what you can buy a new decently-equipped fuel miser for these days (~$15-18k), the electrics and PHEVs will need to come down in price a LOT for people to jump on.
If you use that 10kw-hr every weekday for your whole trip (didn't need to burn gas), and with electricity at ~$0.11/kw-hr, you will spend $1.10 per day to drive that 40-50 miles all EV-only range. A car that gets ~35 mpg will average ~1.5 gallons of gas per day and at $4/gal will cost you $6 per day to drive the same 40-50 miles. Savings of around 5 bucks a day if you stay in all electric mode with the volt.
Take it over a 100k mile analysis (assuming you replace every 100k), all 100k miles on electricity ($0.11/kw-hr and 5 miles per kw-hr again) is 100,000/5*(cost of electricity per kw-hr) which is around 20,000 kw-hr for ~$2,200 total energy cost. The 35mpg car is simply 100,000/35*(cost of gas) which if gas stuck at $4/gal would be around $11,500 total energy cost (~2,860gal of gas). This scenario is about 13k miles per year and 7.5-8 years for replacement.
So every 100k miles you're looking at saving $9,300 in energy costs. Even if electricity sky-rocketed to 0.20/kw-hr and gas stayed the same $4/gal, the total savings would come down to around $5,000 in today's dollars.
Looking at what you can buy a new decently-equipped fuel miser for these days (~$15-18k), the electrics and PHEVs will need to come down in price a LOT for people to jump on.
Same with comparing a $18k car like the cruze to a $25k prius... with gas prices hovering in the $3.50-4.00 range you'd have to drive 100k miles just to break even in terms of fuel costs versus purchase price difference.
IF they ever get these electrics and PHEVs down in the mid 20s sticker price then we'd start to see sales take off. There's a negative-feedback principle for the auto makers though... if everyone starts buying the volt-ish type cars, why produce cars like the cruise, spark, etc at all? Just change them all over to PHEV, preferably with a diesel engine instead of gas.
08-10-2011, 08:04 PM
#30
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Unfortunately, that's the truth.
It's nice to be able to use domestic energy instead of imported oil, but for the average joe at present times, why spend $100 more per month on the car payment for a PHEV to save $50 per month on gas over a standard gas sipper? Not gonna happen. After the car is paid off you're still stuck trying to get the payback from the higher purchase price and it'll take a long time to do it.
20 years ago OEMs figured out how to produce SUVs at "affordable" prices, which caused them to become popular and for the sales figures to blast into the stratosphere from ~1997-2005 (albeit partly through the credit binge). Hopefully they will repeat that feat with the new mostly gas-free cars and keep most of the production here in the US. No sense in touting the new technology as beneficial to us if most of the battery packs are produced in china, japan, mexico, etc etc.
It's nice to be able to use domestic energy instead of imported oil, but for the average joe at present times, why spend $100 more per month on the car payment for a PHEV to save $50 per month on gas over a standard gas sipper? Not gonna happen. After the car is paid off you're still stuck trying to get the payback from the higher purchase price and it'll take a long time to do it.
20 years ago OEMs figured out how to produce SUVs at "affordable" prices, which caused them to become popular and for the sales figures to blast into the stratosphere from ~1997-2005 (albeit partly through the credit binge). Hopefully they will repeat that feat with the new mostly gas-free cars and keep most of the production here in the US. No sense in touting the new technology as beneficial to us if most of the battery packs are produced in china, japan, mexico, etc etc.
08-12-2011, 11:37 AM
#33
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Yep. Youtube has a ton of videos of people doing just that with old 1990s saturns and eclipses. They show you how they did all of it and then drive it around town afterwards. Getting one with a manual transmission is the easiest way... just build a couple of mounts, cut and bolt in a plate, then mount the electric motor(s) to the front of the trans via the plate.
I can't find it right now but there's one where an electrical engineer in chicago built his own electric eclipse. Bought it out of a junk yard with a blown engine for next to nothing (body, etc still in good shape), sold the engine for a few hundred and used it to pay for stuff. I think he said, all done, he had less than 4 grand in the whole setup and could get 30 miles or so on a single charge urban driving. Cool stuff. With good deep-cycle lead acid batteries you should get at least 6-10 years of service before the batteries need replacement.
I can't find it right now but there's one where an electrical engineer in chicago built his own electric eclipse. Bought it out of a junk yard with a blown engine for next to nothing (body, etc still in good shape), sold the engine for a few hundred and used it to pay for stuff. I think he said, all done, he had less than 4 grand in the whole setup and could get 30 miles or so on a single charge urban driving. Cool stuff. With good deep-cycle lead acid batteries you should get at least 6-10 years of service before the batteries need replacement.
08-28-2011, 01:59 PM
#34
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