Irunelevens

That would suck, but I doubt it will happen. Ford and GM seem to be a lot more perceptive to the markets they serve nowadays. They have seen what not to do, and also that complacency will no longer be rewarded. But if the worst happens, greed will be partially responsible.

LS1LT1

iTrader: (16)

Agreed. And I sure do hope you're right.

TheHitman

iTrader: (2)

Its capitalism. Just like democracy its major flaw is allowing every option available. Its the best system to go by and the only way to work with it is for American companies to make the best product available. If you can't make the best product available or market your product well you are dooming yourself to failure and that's not the consumer's fault, that's the company's.

justin455

LS1LT1

iTrader: (16)

True.
But principles and ideologies aside, who 'pays' when it all goes bad (ie: the collapse of Americans in 'actual control' of America)?
We do.
Now, I'd rather not buy inferior wares, but I'd still sooner buy a mediocre product if it meant I was possibly helping protect my nation from economic ruin then 'buy the best for me me me' while watching your children's (I fortunately don't have kids that will need jobs some day) future crumble based solely on 'principle'...if that were the only two choices (fortunately it currently is not) that is.
This all a bit paranoid and doomsdayish I know, but better we question it/analyze it a little now before it's too late.

LS1LT1

iTrader: (16)

Also true LOL.

Irunelevens

But at the same time, without the money that Ford and GM pull in from foreign markets, they both would have been in a much different situation a couple years ago. Global economics is a strange, complicated woman. So I guess it's a regular woman .

LS1vazquez

GM was on top of it's game back in the day. The drivetrains and engines were heads and tails over the competition and the reintroduction of the
Corvette ZO6 nameplate was just over the horizon.

I'm amazed that you, of all people, are resorting back to the weak *** ricer interior argument.

Irunelevens

You're kidding yourself if you think he isn't right. GM made/makes more cars than just the Corvette and F-body twins, and a lot of them just weren't competitive until fairly recently. Build quality, interiors (which is far from a "ricer" argument, btw)... They were playing catch up.

LS1vazquez

With more gearing in the transmission, you can build a smaller displacement motor with a more refined top end to produce the bulk of the power within a very narrow RPM range. The engine will be kept at the RPM range with the use of the 8 speed transmission.

You can also put a converter in the transmission from the factory that will flash the motors up the the required RPM's and just keep it there.

Boom! Powah!

LS1vazquez

GM was selling more cars worldwide then anybody else. If your talking competative from a performance standpoint, dollar for dollar not a whole lot could touch a GM product back in 2002.

Ford wasn't running anybody down in they're single cammer Mustangs that were getting outhustled by stock Camrys.

I don't think Dodge was even in the game yet with the Hemi engine.

The Z06 nameplate was starting to pull into question the likes of BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche nameplates and what they offered as far as performance for the doller.

The main problem was that GM eventually got too big to effectively manage, they breached a critical mass and eventually they had to force-shape themselves as the economy retreacted. And admitingly, they haven't quite recovered since then.

If you want to compare GM cars from then to GM cars today, then of course they are going to come out lacking. If you want to look at GM for how it was back in the day, they were an absolute powerhouse... right up until the moment they failed.

Edit: Changed my wording. For the money GM was bringing alot of bang for the buck.

Irunelevens

Even with the edit, you're still missing the point. I am definitely not even talking about performance. I am talking about cars that weren't good enough to compete in their respective markets.

LS1vazquez

Okay. Specifically what examples then are we talking about?

Irunelevens

Let's just focus on the high-volume money makers; compact and mid-size family sedans. The Malibu ten years ago was a joke. The Grand Prix was decent enough on its own, but for the average family sedan shopper, the Accord or Camry was far better. Oldsmobile Alero? L.O.L. And the Cavalier and Sunfire were some of the absolute biggest pieces of garbage ever made, not to mention incredibly unsafe in an accident. The offerings from Ford were no better at that point. The Escort was a joke, and the Taurus was a shadow of its former self. Whereas the Accord, Camry, Maxima, Civic, etc., were all hitting their stride. It's not a hard concept to fathom; everybody knows that Ford and GM have made leaps and bounds in quality cars in the past five years or so, and the quality of Honda and Toyota has gone down a small, but perceptible, amount. But even the men upstairs at Ford and GM won't go so far as to say their cars are "better." They are "competitive." And you can say they are biased if you want, but I have yet to see a single test that puts a Malibu or Fusion at the top of a family sedan comparison test. So if the American offerings have gotten WAY better, the Japanese offerings have lost a little ground, and they are now basically equal...where do you think that would put them ten years ago?

ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

for the most part the only vehicles the big three had an advantage was full size trucks. thats what kept them profitable until our economy went to ****.

Irunelevens

Dingo bingo.

Edit: And fleet sales, of course.

metalmilitia606

iTrader: (8)

Thread derailed.

Irunelevens

Blame this guy...

metalmilitia606

iTrader: (8)

Lol I posted in this thread when it originally came out and it was a pretty good discussion about the Genesis and now it is something about how America is in bad shape now. In case anyone hasn't noticed, but even though our country is in a "rough spot" I would still much rather live here than anywhere else. A rough America is still a better place than 80% of the countries in the world.

TransAmWS.6

I agree with you to an extent, GM used to build the consumer a lot of car for not a whole lot of money and they still do in some aspects, there is no doubt about that. However, I have to say, the quality just wasn't there at all, and it definitely shows if you just look at how some of their cars from the late 90's to early 2000's have held up over the years. A prime example being the majority of F-Body's that were actually used as drivers over their lifetime.

A lot of people say that a lot of car manufacturers build quality has sort of leveled off recently, but I definitely still question GM's. I may be opening a can of worms with this post, but whatever.