ZL1 Tested vs BOSS
01-24-2012, 05:28 PM
#201
It's common sense. The GT and SS are competitors, the GT500 and ZL1 are competitors. DIRECT competitors. Now if Chevrolet finally decides to release a track-oriented version of the Camaro in the spirit of the Boss Mustangs, they will be direct competitors. The GT500 is the reason the ZL1 exists. For the time being, the Boss Mustangs have no direct competitors. The GT500 vs. SS comparison was dumb, and the SRT-8 is compared to the Mustang GT and Camaro SS because comparing it to the GT500 would be embarrassing. Car magazines and television shows compare cars all the time that shouldn't really be compared.
For the most part I am arguing about this tonight for the sake of arguing and because I am bored. I have no stake in either ZL1, BOSS or GT500...I could really care less what happens for the most part.
thanks for the entertainment though
01-24-2012, 05:28 PM
#202
nope. they're using electronic suspension from the ctsv? and the supercharger from the top of the line vette i believe?
so they're using higher end stuff with a big engine with a supercharger in order to manage to beat a car with a "whacking great girder" for rear suspension with a little engine that's naturally aspirated.
now, if we go to the gt500, it's still got that same "whacking great girder" for rear suspension, and it's still got a little engine....but at least it's got a supercharger.
so they're using higher end stuff with a big engine with a supercharger in order to manage to beat a car with a "whacking great girder" for rear suspension with a little engine that's naturally aspirated.
now, if we go to the gt500, it's still got that same "whacking great girder" for rear suspension, and it's still got a little engine....but at least it's got a supercharger.
And the ZL1 wasn't just made to carve corners. It's got a full, dare I say "luxury", interior too. I doubt all the suede, leather, buttons, heads up display, premium sound/subs, ect were done with performance and track times in mind.
At Laguna Seca? The track I see from the link is in Arizona... LS is in California... The Mustang tested against the ZL1 in this case is the Laguna Seca, but that's not the track... it looks much like it though.
That said, I think that gap is enough to say the ZL1 will all but certainly also beat the current GT500. The next... Idonno. It's gonna be much more powerful(100 or so) and have what I expect are far stickier tires than it's been using.
That's impressive, no doubt.
Huh? When did Ford pull the GT500 from showrooms? I've not seen the 1st ZL1 on a showroom floor and GM says it will be available in the spring(it's winter). So which isn't available yet?
I know, you meant the 2013 GT500, but hey... At least there is a GT500 available. That is, I could go to any number of dealerships and purchase 1 today if I wanted... AND then drive it off the lot the same day, if I wanted. I don't think I can say the same for the Camaro ZL1. Perhaps you can tell me where I can go drive one today??
Btw, does anyone know the pricing for the 2013 GT500? I'm guessing GM gave Ford a reason to bump pricing another 5-7k... Great for Ford and GM... Not great for the customer. Of course, the ZL1 is priced extremely low impo, because it surely has a production cost somewhere near the asking price. The next GT500 will be more of the same, but in a lesser fashion as far as I can tell... I believe it will cost more for GM than Ford to produce their respective model.
That said, I think that gap is enough to say the ZL1 will all but certainly also beat the current GT500. The next... Idonno. It's gonna be much more powerful(100 or so) and have what I expect are far stickier tires than it's been using.
That's impressive, no doubt.
Huh? When did Ford pull the GT500 from showrooms? I've not seen the 1st ZL1 on a showroom floor and GM says it will be available in the spring(it's winter). So which isn't available yet?
I know, you meant the 2013 GT500, but hey... At least there is a GT500 available. That is, I could go to any number of dealerships and purchase 1 today if I wanted... AND then drive it off the lot the same day, if I wanted. I don't think I can say the same for the Camaro ZL1. Perhaps you can tell me where I can go drive one today??
Btw, does anyone know the pricing for the 2013 GT500? I'm guessing GM gave Ford a reason to bump pricing another 5-7k... Great for Ford and GM... Not great for the customer. Of course, the ZL1 is priced extremely low impo, because it surely has a production cost somewhere near the asking price. The next GT500 will be more of the same, but in a lesser fashion as far as I can tell... I believe it will cost more for GM than Ford to produce their respective model.
Also, the last I saw the 2013 GT500 was still planning on running the same shitty 285 tires they have since 2007 that didn't hook up with 500hp, let alone 650.
They haven't "pulled" the GT500's out of showrooms, nor did I imply this because I was referencing the 2013 GT500 which isn't produced or even tested yet. I believe the ZL1 would have to be produced in order to test it if I'm not mistaken? Why don't you go down to the dealership and see which you can order? ZL1 orders/allocations went in weeks ago in mid december, they'll start rolling in to show rooms in the first part of February. I wouldn't call February "spring", but hey, dealerships know everything right?
The pricing for the 2013 GT500 is hiding along with all of the Nurburgring times
Last edited by MasterTomos; 01-24-2012 at 05:43 PM.
01-24-2012, 05:31 PM
#203
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All good points. I just happen to think the price was close enough that the test was reasonably fair. And while not direct competitors (I agree) I think they are competitors in a sense that the price isnt far off. The fact that the BOSS has been proven to be just as capable on a road course as a gt500 in some instances...it is all the more validating/rewarding for the zl1 crowd.
For the most part I am arguing about this tonight for the sake of arguing and because I am bored. I have no stake in either ZL1, BOSS or GT500...I could really care less what happens for the most part.
thanks for the entertainment though
For the most part I am arguing about this tonight for the sake of arguing and because I am bored. I have no stake in either ZL1, BOSS or GT500...I could really care less what happens for the most part.
thanks for the entertainment though
01-24-2012, 05:43 PM
#206
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If you think this car isn't being held back (performance trade off for comfort/livability) some then you are either completely naive or a ford fanboy.
Electronic dampers they've used all the way back on the C5 Corvette (revised versions on the new GM cars obviously).
These aid in both ride and handling, not a strait up performance piece.
But not the top of the line engine? - they are holding back...
They are using a smaller engine with a supercharger, modern day suspension with advanced shocks, vs a smaller/lighter car with a bigger engine (dont confuse displacement with size), weight reduction, chassis bracing, and track tuned suspension (although yes, a solid axle).
Gm could have stripped the car and added more chassis bracing, stickier tires, more power, more aggressive brakes, suspension etc etc etc. The ZL1, like almost all street cars, is being held back in performance for comfort street ability.
they're using electronic suspension from the ctsv?
These aid in both ride and handling, not a strait up performance piece.
and the supercharger from the top of the line vette i believe?
so they're using higher end stuff with a big engine with a supercharger in order to manage to beat a car with a "whacking great girder" for rear suspension with a little engine that's naturally aspirated.
Gm could have stripped the car and added more chassis bracing, stickier tires, more power, more aggressive brakes, suspension etc etc etc. The ZL1, like almost all street cars, is being held back in performance for comfort street ability.
01-24-2012, 05:49 PM
#207
I guess I'm not following how it wasn't a fair comparison. They took the best roundy-round Mustang Ford had to offer and put it up against the ZL1. A 2.2 mile track isn't really big enough for the extra power to make a huge difference.
If they had put it up against the GT500 on that same course, everyone would complain that they didn't test it against the Boss, which has fared better in testing on similar size tracks vs. the GT500.
If they had put it up against the GT500 on that same course, everyone would complain that they didn't test it against the Boss, which has fared better in testing on similar size tracks vs. the GT500.
01-24-2012, 05:51 PM
#208
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Really? Depending on which track has more straight aways so the gt500 can utalize it's hp advantage... but in more twisties BOSS has won? I think with this said, ford will need to make some major upgrades to the 2013 model to beat the ZL1 at a track then.
01-24-2012, 06:03 PM
#209
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I guess I'm not following how it wasn't a fair comparison. They took the best roundy-round Mustang Ford had to offer and put it up against the ZL1. A 2.2 mile track isn't really big enough for the extra power to make a huge difference.
If they had put it up against the GT500 on that same course, everyone would complain that they didn't test it against the Boss, which has fared better in testing on similar size tracks vs. the GT500.
If they had put it up against the GT500 on that same course, everyone would complain that they didn't test it against the Boss, which has fared better in testing on similar size tracks vs. the GT500.
01-24-2012, 06:04 PM
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01-24-2012, 06:06 PM
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01-24-2012, 06:07 PM
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01-24-2012, 06:12 PM
#213
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Boss is a sick car. If I was in the market for a new vehicle right now it would definitely be my choice (non LS model). Price, performance, and arguably the last raw muscle car made. I like NA motors and SRA rears. Makes for good fun on the roads.
01-24-2012, 06:29 PM
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The mustang the zl1 beats has a supercharger as well. If you dont think it will beat a 2012 GT500 you are crazy. It was benchmarked to do just that. And it has NEVER run away from a boss like the zl1 did in any test.
And from a few tests I have seen...ford beat themselves without adding a supercharger...how freaking stupid is that?
And since when does a supercharger help in the turns?
Keep trying.
And from a few tests I have seen...ford beat themselves without adding a supercharger...how freaking stupid is that?
And since when does a supercharger help in the turns?
Keep trying.
the supercharger gives added boost(who'da thunk boost from a supercharger?) when accelerating out of the turns.
the goodyear supercar f2 tires aren't "R" compound?
01-24-2012, 06:32 PM
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Why...because you said so? A magazine who compares cars for a living seems to think it was valid enough to compare them. I think they have more of a say than you do whether you like it or not.
I disagree. I think any two cars priced within 7k of each other can be compared.
The SS gets compared to the 392 and the price difference is greater. The SS was compared to the gt500 and the price difference was nearly 20k.
7k would keep you from buying another car with far superior performance? It would not for me personally. Therefor I see them as competitors.
I disagree. I think any two cars priced within 7k of each other can be compared.
The SS gets compared to the 392 and the price difference is greater. The SS was compared to the gt500 and the price difference was nearly 20k.
7k would keep you from buying another car with far superior performance? It would not for me personally. Therefor I see them as competitors.
who the hell compared the ss to the gt500? if anything, the ss should be compared to the gt....and streeeettttcccchhing it maybe.......juuusssttt maybe the regular boss302(personally i don't think so).
01-24-2012, 06:35 PM
#217
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All good points. I just happen to think the price was close enough that the test was reasonably fair. And while not direct competitors (I agree) I think they are competitors in a sense that the price isnt far off. The fact that the BOSS has been proven to be just as capable on a road course as a gt500 in some instances...it is all the more validating/rewarding for the zl1 crowd.
For the most part I am arguing about this tonight for the sake of arguing and because I am bored. I have no stake in either ZL1, BOSS or GT500...I could really care less what happens for the most part.
thanks for the entertainment though
For the most part I am arguing about this tonight for the sake of arguing and because I am bored. I have no stake in either ZL1, BOSS or GT500...I could really care less what happens for the most part.
thanks for the entertainment though
if i could afford, i'd have one each of the fords and chevys, and a challenger for the rainy days when i can't drive hard anyway.
01-24-2012, 06:37 PM
#218
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It's like when the new M5 came out. I was at Barnes & Noble and it was on the cover of 4 different magazines. Can't wait to see it's head to head match vs. CTS-V
01-24-2012, 06:40 PM
#219
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If you think this car isn't being held back (performance trade off for comfort/livability) some then you are either completely naive or a ford fanboy.neither.
Electronic dampers they've used all the way back on the C5 Corvette (revised versions on the new GM cars obviously).
These aid in both ride and handling, not a strait up performance piece.aahh yes, but they needed to add them to the camaro in order for it to beat the boss.
But not the top of the line engine? - they are holding back...i would venture that ford's got a LOT more up their sleeve with the 5 liter than any of us think.
They are using a smaller engine with a supercharger, modern day suspension with advanced shocks, vs a smaller/lighter car with a bigger engine (dont confuse displacement with size), weight reduction, chassis bracing, and track tuned suspension (although yes, a solid axle).smaller engine? 6.2 liter vs a 5 liter? they could reduce weight even more by using a smaller engine.
Gm could have stripped the car and added more chassis bracing, stickier tires, more power, more aggressive brakes, suspension etc etc etc. The ZL1, like almost all street cars, is being held back in performance for comfort street ability.
Electronic dampers they've used all the way back on the C5 Corvette (revised versions on the new GM cars obviously).
These aid in both ride and handling, not a strait up performance piece.aahh yes, but they needed to add them to the camaro in order for it to beat the boss.
But not the top of the line engine? - they are holding back...i would venture that ford's got a LOT more up their sleeve with the 5 liter than any of us think.
They are using a smaller engine with a supercharger, modern day suspension with advanced shocks, vs a smaller/lighter car with a bigger engine (dont confuse displacement with size), weight reduction, chassis bracing, and track tuned suspension (although yes, a solid axle).smaller engine? 6.2 liter vs a 5 liter? they could reduce weight even more by using a smaller engine.
Gm could have stripped the car and added more chassis bracing, stickier tires, more power, more aggressive brakes, suspension etc etc etc. The ZL1, like almost all street cars, is being held back in performance for comfort street ability.
BOSS APPROVED!