Ready for another 1le? GM misses the mark again.
07-24-2012, 09:55 PM
#62
I gladly would, but they don't break things down that way. Changing gear ratios in a truck adds a new package, as in you can't ONLY do a gear ratio change.
But if you are seriously going to sit there and tell me that it costs more for GM to install a 3.91 in the rear of that car than it costs to install a 3.70...
But if you are seriously going to sit there and tell me that it costs more for GM to install a 3.91 in the rear of that car than it costs to install a 3.70...
Have you ever worked in a manufacturing plant? More specifically a mass production plant? Have you ever visited a GM assembly plant? If so, you would or should understand how a minor change can have major impacts on the assembly process and more importantly the bottom line.
***EDIT: FYI - A gear change on the Mustang was extra even when it was not part of the track pack. A gear change on the Ram trucks also costs more.
***EDIT: FYI - A gear change on the Mustang was extra even when it was not part of the track pack. A gear change on the Ram trucks also costs more.
all day long.There is much more than just the cost of the part to changing the way a car is assembled, and this is true for complete units such as transmissions also.
Example:
Gear ratio changes in the TR6060. Let's say the gears are the same cost. However, in the plant, you now have be able to differentiate between which TR6060s have which gears. Then you have to be able to track these different transmissions so the consumer (GM in this case) doesn't end up with a bunch of M6's with the wrong gear ratios in 1LE or ZL1 cars.
So if you believe that all this setup, install, tracking and shipping all adds up to zero cost to GM, then I don't know how else to explain these types of things to you??
07-25-2012, 12:44 AM
#64
Gotta love how this car gets actual functional upgrades and people bitch up a storm, but nobody seems to notice how big of a gimmick the 98-02 WS6 and SS cars are, in fact, most people praise them and prefer them.
Just take a look at used car prices for 98-02 cars. SS and WS6 cars are usually about 50% more expensive than a comperable condition/mileage standard V8 Model, and for what? That's right, a hood, 17" wheels, a lid, a 2mm larger front sway bar (which some experts claim is a mis-match anyway) and a power steering cooler? (yes, there was more options available, the shocks and the exhaust, but those things costed extra and a great mass majoirty of the ws6/ss cars didn't get them)
I, for one, am happy that GM is constantly improving the Camaro. They're listening to the fans and buyers. Better paint, different colors, better suspension, more standard options, more models, new trims, new engines, countless special editions to keep things interesting, as well as a new platform already in the works and it hasn't even been 3 years!
As a car manufacterer, they're doing damn good IMO considering when the 5th gen was originally in the works, they were setting out to compete with a 305hp Mustang and a non-existant dodge challenger.
On a side note:
I get a kick out of the people who think they understand the pricing side of a huge business like this by taking a quick glance at a dollar figure on a webpage. Research & development, demand, supply, quantity, future sale estimations, previous sales data, mark-up for profit (there has to be some, they are a business) and manufacturing costs are just some of the things that help determine a price to consumer. Not just the price of the chunk of metal that the gears are made from
I assure you, GM knows more than any of us do about these kinds of things, and I doubt their business plan is to make billions on screwing their customers on gear pricing for a niche sports-car.
Just take a look at used car prices for 98-02 cars. SS and WS6 cars are usually about 50% more expensive than a comperable condition/mileage standard V8 Model, and for what? That's right, a hood, 17" wheels, a lid, a 2mm larger front sway bar (which some experts claim is a mis-match anyway) and a power steering cooler? (yes, there was more options available, the shocks and the exhaust, but those things costed extra and a great mass majoirty of the ws6/ss cars didn't get them)
I, for one, am happy that GM is constantly improving the Camaro. They're listening to the fans and buyers. Better paint, different colors, better suspension, more standard options, more models, new trims, new engines, countless special editions to keep things interesting, as well as a new platform already in the works and it hasn't even been 3 years!
As a car manufacterer, they're doing damn good IMO considering when the 5th gen was originally in the works, they were setting out to compete with a 305hp Mustang and a non-existant dodge challenger.
On a side note:
I get a kick out of the people who think they understand the pricing side of a huge business like this by taking a quick glance at a dollar figure on a webpage. Research & development, demand, supply, quantity, future sale estimations, previous sales data, mark-up for profit (there has to be some, they are a business) and manufacturing costs are just some of the things that help determine a price to consumer. Not just the price of the chunk of metal that the gears are made from
I assure you, GM knows more than any of us do about these kinds of things, and I doubt their business plan is to make billions on screwing their customers on gear pricing for a niche sports-car. Last edited by MasterTomos; 07-25-2012 at 12:56 AM.
07-25-2012, 08:31 AM
#66
Gotta love how this car gets actual functional upgrades and people bitch up a storm, but nobody seems to notice how big of a gimmick the 98-02 WS6 and SS cars are, in fact, most people praise them and prefer them.
Just take a look at used car prices for 98-02 cars. SS and WS6 cars are usually about 50% more expensive than a comperable condition/mileage standard V8 Model, and for what? That's right, a hood, 17" wheels, a lid, a 2mm larger front sway bar (which some experts claim is a mis-match anyway) and a power steering cooler? (yes, there was more options available, the shocks and the exhaust, but those things costed extra and a great mass majoirty of the ws6/ss cars didn't get them)
I, for one, am happy that GM is constantly improving the Camaro. They're listening to the fans and buyers. Better paint, different colors, better suspension, more standard options, more models, new trims, new engines, countless special editions to keep things interesting, as well as a new platform already in the works and it hasn't even been 3 years!
As a car manufacterer, they're doing damn good IMO considering when the 5th gen was originally in the works, they were setting out to compete with a 305hp Mustang and a non-existant dodge challenger.
On a side note:
I get a kick out of the people who think they understand the pricing side of a huge business like this by taking a quick glance at a dollar figure on a webpage. Research & development, demand, supply, quantity, future sale estimations, previous sales data, mark-up for profit (there has to be some, they are a business) and manufacturing costs are just some of the things that help determine a price to consumer. Not just the price of the chunk of metal that the gears are made from I assure you, GM knows more than any of us do about these kinds of things, and I doubt their business plan is to make billions on screwing their customers on gear pricing for a niche sports-car.
Just take a look at used car prices for 98-02 cars. SS and WS6 cars are usually about 50% more expensive than a comperable condition/mileage standard V8 Model, and for what? That's right, a hood, 17" wheels, a lid, a 2mm larger front sway bar (which some experts claim is a mis-match anyway) and a power steering cooler? (yes, there was more options available, the shocks and the exhaust, but those things costed extra and a great mass majoirty of the ws6/ss cars didn't get them)
I, for one, am happy that GM is constantly improving the Camaro. They're listening to the fans and buyers. Better paint, different colors, better suspension, more standard options, more models, new trims, new engines, countless special editions to keep things interesting, as well as a new platform already in the works and it hasn't even been 3 years!
As a car manufacterer, they're doing damn good IMO considering when the 5th gen was originally in the works, they were setting out to compete with a 305hp Mustang and a non-existant dodge challenger.
On a side note:
I get a kick out of the people who think they understand the pricing side of a huge business like this by taking a quick glance at a dollar figure on a webpage. Research & development, demand, supply, quantity, future sale estimations, previous sales data, mark-up for profit (there has to be some, they are a business) and manufacturing costs are just some of the things that help determine a price to consumer. Not just the price of the chunk of metal that the gears are made from
I assure you, GM knows more than any of us do about these kinds of things, and I doubt their business plan is to make billions on screwing their customers on gear pricing for a niche sports-car.
07-25-2012, 03:08 PM
#69
And fyi, there was an absolute shitload of SS and WS6 cars from 98-02...they're not that rare at all. Take a look at 96-97 production numbers for those cars, and they're worth less than a 98-02 counterpart usually, even with lower miles and better condition.
07-25-2012, 04:32 PM
#70
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Before you make assumptions you guys really need to spend some time working with an assembly line or mass production process.
07-25-2012, 07:58 PM
#71
Well then there you guys go, there will be less 1LE cars so thats what makes them cost/worth more!
And fyi, there was an absolute shitload of SS and WS6 cars from 98-02...they're not that rare at all. Take a look at 96-97 production numbers for those cars, and they're worth less than a 98-02 counterpart usually, even with lower miles and better condition.
And fyi, there was an absolute shitload of SS and WS6 cars from 98-02...they're not that rare at all. Take a look at 96-97 production numbers for those cars, and they're worth less than a 98-02 counterpart usually, even with lower miles and better condition.
Are you serious? Last time I checked leather cost more than cloth. Suede packages cost more. Recaro seats cost more, bluetooth, navigation, etc. all cost more.
Before you make assumptions you guys really need to spend some time working with an assembly line or mass production process.
Before you make assumptions you guys really need to spend some time working with an assembly line or mass production process.
07-25-2012, 09:35 PM
#73
You can't compare stock vs after market if that's the case then you could buy a v6 and add done suspension and turbos and beat the 1le for less money. See how that just starts a comparasion that could never end? Plus some people really like the fact that it will handle better be more durable and still carry a warranty.
07-25-2012, 11:40 PM
#74
Why is the resale of a ss or ws6 higher than a base z28 or ta if they are the same car?
Colors, not materials. Read it again. Im not saying the 1le package is a complete ripoff, Im saying it misses the mark of what its supposed to be. Aside from the gearing, you can build it cheaper with aftermarket parts.
Colors, not materials. Read it again. Im not saying the 1le package is a complete ripoff, Im saying it misses the mark of what its supposed to be. Aside from the gearing, you can build it cheaper with aftermarket parts.
And all the upgrades you get for the price of the 1LE package, you couldn't do for just a few grand. I'd love to see you compile a list, and also, mantain factory warranty.
07-26-2012, 01:40 PM
#75
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It's like talking to a damn wall with some of these people,its also like talking to a little kid that asks why like a million times. If you do not like the car don't buy it and go write a letter to GM and bitch to them. I personally understand why the car will be more expensive than a regular SS. Many manufacturers are charging an arm and a leg for just stickers and decals. At least they are giving you a car with a handling and appearance package just like the ss/ws6's were. So why can't this car cost more money just like those cars?
07-28-2012, 03:26 AM
#76
SS/WS6 package werent so bad; different and functional ram air/lighter too, trillion times nicer wheels and better exhaust with 3:42 gear...and badges. Power steering cooler sucked though; worst failure, right after the glass stock 10 bolts.
I think this package is nice. You can still order a GM performance muffler/tips if you want. We are in 2012, does anybody think any manufacturer is going to give away cars or options?? Its just getting higher and higher. Get real guys. Nothing is going to be like when it was 14years ago when you could buy a dirt cheap LS1 Z28 that was equal/faster than a stock auto C5...
I think this package is nice. You can still order a GM performance muffler/tips if you want. We are in 2012, does anybody think any manufacturer is going to give away cars or options?? Its just getting higher and higher. Get real guys. Nothing is going to be like when it was 14years ago when you could buy a dirt cheap LS1 Z28 that was equal/faster than a stock auto C5...
07-28-2012, 10:50 AM
#77
Douchebag On The Tree
3.42 rear gear was in any V8 car with a manual. You could get an SS/WS6 with 2.73 or 3.23 in the autos as well...just like a regular Z28, Formula, and Trans Am
07-28-2012, 05:02 PM
#78
Why is the resale of a ss or ws6 higher than a base z28 or ta if they are the same car?
Colors, not materials. Read it again. Im not saying the 1le package is a complete ripoff, Im saying it misses the mark of what its supposed to be. Aside from the gearing, you can build it cheaper with aftermarket parts.
Colors, not materials. Read it again. Im not saying the 1le package is a complete ripoff, Im saying it misses the mark of what its supposed to be. Aside from the gearing, you can build it cheaper with aftermarket parts.
Then there's the "SS is fast group" that is satisfied with what they have and the performance of them.
GM sits down and says they could appeal to the latter market by offering a semi-"track" package that increases handling and overall performance and has some aesthetically differences as well.
These people arent huge modders past a CAI and mufflers so GM offers them limited upgrades at a cost that is satisfactory to them and to GM. These people don't have the general wherewithall to throw on monotube shocks and hardened half-shafts...if they did, they'd buy the base 1SS and do it along with other stuff that meets their specific tastes.
If you're a modder, why start with a modded car that costs more in which you'd replace those parts anyways? Most start with a clean slate or base slate and go from there, unless they want NAV, stereo, etc etc.
GMs idea is to sell a modded/upgraded car to the public that isn't familiar with modding cars and to offer a good or even better starting point to the people familiar and go from there.
The market for SCCA showroom cars isn't what it once was so they have found creative ways to go with a nostalgic RPO code, 1LE, that still offers a bump in performance in all categories to the general public that aren't die hard track goers.
07-28-2012, 11:32 PM
#79
You need to think of it like this, the marketing/consumer side. GM knows that theres a vast collection of gearheads out there that know their way around a car and how to properly mod them. Those are the guys purchasing the 1SS and removing the 1000s of airbags and modding almost immediately with high end suspension and drivetrain parts.
Then there's the "SS is fast group" that is satisfied with what they have and the performance of them.
GM sits down and says they could appeal to the latter market by offering a semi-"track" package that increases handling and overall performance and has some aesthetically differences as well.
These people arent huge modders past a CAI and mufflers so GM offers them limited upgrades at a cost that is satisfactory to them and to GM. These people don't have the general wherewithall to throw on monotube shocks and hardened half-shafts...if they did, they'd buy the base 1SS and do it along with other stuff that meets their specific tastes.
If you're a modder, why start with a modded car that costs more in which you'd replace those parts anyways? Most start with a clean slate or base slate and go from there, unless they want NAV, stereo, etc etc.
GMs idea is to sell a modded/upgraded car to the public that isn't familiar with modding cars and to offer a good or even better starting point to the people familiar and go from there.
The market for SCCA showroom cars isn't what it once was so they have found creative ways to go with a nostalgic RPO code, 1LE, that still offers a bump in performance in all categories to the general public that aren't die hard track goers.
Then there's the "SS is fast group" that is satisfied with what they have and the performance of them.
GM sits down and says they could appeal to the latter market by offering a semi-"track" package that increases handling and overall performance and has some aesthetically differences as well.
These people arent huge modders past a CAI and mufflers so GM offers them limited upgrades at a cost that is satisfactory to them and to GM. These people don't have the general wherewithall to throw on monotube shocks and hardened half-shafts...if they did, they'd buy the base 1SS and do it along with other stuff that meets their specific tastes.
If you're a modder, why start with a modded car that costs more in which you'd replace those parts anyways? Most start with a clean slate or base slate and go from there, unless they want NAV, stereo, etc etc.
GMs idea is to sell a modded/upgraded car to the public that isn't familiar with modding cars and to offer a good or even better starting point to the people familiar and go from there.
The market for SCCA showroom cars isn't what it once was so they have found creative ways to go with a nostalgic RPO code, 1LE, that still offers a bump in performance in all categories to the general public that aren't die hard track goers.
07-30-2012, 01:22 PM
#80
Staging Lane
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How you like them apples. A Camaro 1SS with the 1LE package starts at $37,035 it also Laps Virginia International Raceway in 2:58.34 [with Video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czFR4...ayer_embedded#!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czFR4...ayer_embedded#!