Why are you still here spouting BS?? I thought you had already left this thread after claiming gearing BS that was completely inaccurate? Are you here to do more bench racing?
For your information, because seemingly you failed to notice (not surprising)...I've had lengthy arguments about the GTR in this forum...quite a few times actually...and I have FIVE TIMES the amount of posts that you have. Not 20 like your claiming that everyone who discusses the GTR has, but over 5,000 posts (I'm gonna help you out cuz I know your slow, that's over 4,980 more posts than 20). I guess it isn't possible for someone who isn't as blatantly obsessed with GM like yourself to believe that the GTR is a good car without you calling them Chris or chrissy is it?

 

OK...Your seeing things through blinders and only seeing what YOU want to see and not the whole picture. So...

If your gonna quote the driver of the #20 car to prove a point. I assume it means that you believe he's telling the truth or has some credibility right? Or else you wouldn't be quoting him...right? So if that's the case...why do you only partially quote what he says concerning the GTR as well as his own car? It's convenient to quote an actual C6Z driver of OLOA to make your arguments stick yet it's inconvenient to believe him when he actually claims that the GTR is in fact STOCK and furthermore that his car ISN'T STOCK??

THIS IS WHAT THE DRIVER OF THE NUMBER 20 CAR SAYS...
HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, anyone there?????

I'm sorry, but if you radically improve the suspension of a car especially as extensively as he has in order to improve handling, your damn sure NOT STOCK and your damn sure his lap times are gonna improve dramatically over stock configuration!!

So basically an actual driver of OLOA confirms that the GTR is in fact stock and that his car is not...yet you fail to bring this up and instead try and prove that the GTR is NOT stock and his car IS! WTF???
Please explain how you can discredit one aspect of what he says yet embrace another.

 

Secondly...

If C6Z's regularly run 2:05's or better at VIR as you claim(I'm assuming your referring to stock C6Z's...you failed to mention) How is it that the driver in the #20 car who is running on modified suspension can only pull off a best of 2:11 on his HOME track which he's been racing at for 2 years and a worst of 2:26!?!

I'm not saying your lying because I believe that you do actually have C6Z's running that fast around that track. Yet want to point out that just because one (seemingly great) driver can attain a best of 2:06 at that track doesn't mean that the car is gonna be that fast around that track all the time REGARDLESS of who's driving. Maybe if you place Suzuki (or whoever ran the 7:29) in the GTR, maybe he can pull off a sub 2:00 time but it's no mystery why the GTR isn't running the VIR in under 2:00 with Tony driving it. He's a good driver but not a great driver.

And c6ls3 touched on it a little bit...
The GTR is EXCELLENT at carrying speed through the corners and accelerating out of turns, more so than the Vette's. You place the GTR on a track that has more straight away's and less turns and the C6Z will demolish it, no questions asked...that's the whole premise of OLOA. Many different types of tracks for the varying types of cars and their strengths.

Which is why, and I quote from http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...n_gt_r_feature

"The GT-R finished 11th overall, in a field of 72 entrants....and was also good enough to finish ahead of ALL the naturally aspirated Z06 Corvettes, two of the GT3s, and all but one of the M3s."


So enough with the "Why can't it do VIR in under 2:00 minutes."

 

And apparently your quoting articles without completely reading them and more importantly understanding them. To avoid confusion I'll quote what you posted rather than the R&T article that you yourself are quoting.


You apparently didn't understand what they were saying at all, and read what you want to see rather than the what's being said.

So instead..let's imagine that you work for Nissan and want to enter a stock GTR in the OLOA to see how it competes with the competition and potentially get a little publicity in the process. However, you have a BIG problem, your car isn't currently for sale in the US and that being the case, isn't legal for registration and operation on US roads. But who cares that it isn't legal for registration and operation on US roads right? I mean your racing on different racing tracks and not on the Highways so who cares if it isn't legal.
Oops... Highway Laws: It is expected that competitors will confirm to all highway laws in the states that the event passes. Observed violations affecting the safety of the competitors, or other motorists, will result in immediate disqualification. Any violations of highway law resulting in a conviction is also grounds for disqualification.

So you can't enter the GTR unless you can find a way to register it and make it legal to drive on US highways. What options do you have...well lucky for you, you have an ace up your sleeve and being a major auto manufacturer you can classify them as "engineering test cars" and therefore obtain registration (for only 90 days) and become legal to drive on US roads and therefore gain entrance into the competition. Congratulations, the Nissan exec's are now very happy with you and you've been given a promotion.

Point is...this is why they are labeled as such and why they can't be label as production cars because THERE ARE NO PRODUCTION CARS, and they don't exist yet. Same as the ZR1 does here in the states as well as at the "Ring" and as ALL car manufacturers must do with brand new cars. Does it mean that these cars aren't stock...NO it doesn't, it means that the only way they can drive them on public streets is to label them as "engineering test cars".
Yet for some reason because most of you hate the fact that the GTR does so well and want believe that it's running yadda yadda yadda amount of boost and blah blah blah this and that and they are making way more power than stock claims, you read "engineering test cars" and think...Oooo it's totally altered and they are cheating and lying!

Honestly what does Nissan have to gain by running a souped up version of the GTR past the stock OEM tolerances that they themselves have set? You think it would look good for PR if they blew the engine while racing because they were over boosting it? Or that it would do wonders for them publicly if people were to find out that they were in fact cheating their way through OLOA to impress people and pretend that their car is better? Yeah good luck dealing with that hail storm of public frenzy if that was the case.

 

Why do you think I left #1 out of the quote? Your boy said he was there at OLOA so I wanted him to tells how he knew in fact it was stock. Obviously he is a liar and does not know.

Hello....stock engine wise. All 3 of C6Z's are stock engine wise, only the C5Z is not stock. I guess you forgot about the 3rd car which he said is completely stock?

Neither is the GTR. It is making more than the claimed HP. SO therefore it is not stock.

 

Since you vist the Vette forums, go and do a search for the people who are instructors and post what there students run at VIR. Nevermind, I will post them myself.

Really? So Tony is not a great driver I bet that would hurt his feelings. Really? Why then don't you compare Tony's, who is a pro, driving reecord to Susuki's for all to see. I would love to see this. Go and compare Tony's record, who has been racing in OLOA for how long, to the other Vette drivers. Again this would be facinating inofrmation.

Again that's great. A pro like Tony driving a car that is not stock. Great. So then nobody else on the planet could come close to a 7:29 but Suzuki. Since it can't even come close to a 2:00 min VIR time, what are we to extrapolate from the data?

 

I guess your not understanding what they are trying to relay: The car is not US spec, it is making more HP than a US spec version. They know it is not a production, can't be. I ever brought up the fact that it is not a production car. I said that it is not stock to what Nissan claims and that's were the trouble lies.

Picture this...in a track far far away..The Ring...Nissan finds out the testing procedures of the Z, obviously they want to beat it's time. Take's the car out and runs the exact opposite of the way said Z was tested. Then they do not announce testing procedures, conditions, specs of the car but claim it is faster than said Z even they they knew EXACTLY the way the Z was tested!

Add in discrepencies for the in car timer vs. the video. Allegations of r- type tires. Allegations of more HP than factory spec (Similar to the OLOA car). Add in a dubious 7:29 and then a 7:25.

Then they send a car to OLOA. The car is making more HP than what Nissan claims is factory US spec. Hmmm?

The cars that were first sent to all the media outlets seem to be faster than the ones being tested recently. ( 11.7? @ 125 from the MEDIA is nowhere near the 11.8 @ 122 from the real world, not magazine writers driving.) Go compare the mags time with the Z vs. real world times and they are much faster. But it looks like the reverse is true for the GTR.

Nah, Nissan WOULD never do anything that might try and HYPE there product, now would they?

In case you missed this : and if the dyno is any indication, is making a lot more power than the production car's certified 480.

That is why I posted the comments from the article.

BTW, nice how GM laid out the exact testing procedures and specs of the ZR1. Kinda like Nissan did with the GTR . So there would not be any confusion over how testing occured. Would not want to see how someone else tested and then did the exact oppozsite just so you can claim a better time

 

Steve Millen answers questions regarding the GTR:

Shinkaze: Mr. Millen when you drove Road and Tracks test, you got a 1:56 for the gtr and a 2:01 for the ZO6.

Millen: Thats right

Shinkaze: Car and Driver were unable to get that time, also their 1/4 mile times were significatly slower. Do you have a theory on why their times are off your times?

Millen: You know i saw the magazine just today. Their time in the ZO6 was similar in time to what i did, but the gtr time was much slower. I am curious about that because the time is the time. We timed it with a gps system to. I got a number of laps at 1:56 with the gtr. Maybe Car and Driver didn't know how to make best use of the turbochargers and 4wd and all that. They didn't take the car as quick as it can go around Buttonwillow. It was the exact same track config. that i drove around to so i was really surprised by that.

Shinkaze: One of the theories that's been put out there. Is that the Car and Driver car was on 91 octane and maybe your car was on race gas, putting the car on a more conservative fuel map, do you think there's some possibility in that the car isn't seeing as much hp on 91 octane?

Millen: I don't think so and i'll tell you why. I did another test recently with Road and Track magazine which is going to come out soon, probably within the next month. And we went to Willow Springs, we went to the big track at willow and went to the streets of willow the next day. And i drove a bunch of different sports cars, i think there was about 12 cars there, um and again the gtr was quite a bit quicker than the ZO6 and the Porsche um GT2.

Shinkaze: Quicker than the gt2, the standard gtr is quicker than the gt2?

Millen: Yes it was. You will see the test come out real soon. The gtr wasn't actually the quickest car in the test, there were 2 cars quicker. But you will have to wait till you see Road and Track magazine when it comes out. Did a real good time with the Viper ACR. Which is a very quick car especially on the Michelin tires. Somehow they didn't get all you can get out of the gtr at Buttonwillow. You know alot of people are misleaded about the gtr and they say how its easy to drive, and it is, it's very easy to drive upto about 80 or 90%, when you really wanna start pushing that car it's going to start slipping and sliding around on you, it's natural. Any car if your going really quick your sliding and moving the car. People getting really secure in the car and think there going quick, but you can go alot quicker.

Shinkaze: So the final question and this is the one that sets message boards aflame, is 7:29 on the Nurburgring achievable with this vehicle?

Millen: It was done, so ya know

Shinkaze: The message boards say oh the car it's a ringer, it's tweaked out, it's a vspec or something crazy. In your professional experience given what other cars have achieved, do you think it's achievable.

Millen: I believe the new ZR1 has gone around in 7:27, so i think that kinds of puts this in perspective. The most amazing thing about the gtr when i first drove it, was i couldn't believe how well it did everything, cornering and accelerating and so on. And at that time i said, if i was going to do a long distance race in a production car, this is the car i would want to do it in, cause you can do it lap after lap after lap. And you can use the curbs you can really use alot of the track were other cars you can't.

Shinkaze: So what about the people that complain about the 3800 lbs, it's rated at less than 500 hp, close to 500 just a little bit less, and yet the numbers it achieves at that weight and that power are just ridiculous. What do you think the magic is?

Millen: If you look at the acceleration times, like in the Road and Track test that we did, it wasn't the quickest accelerating, infact the corvette was quicker on the straightaways on the long straightaways it was faster. Cause it's alot lighter car. It's all about getting into the corners and through them and out of them, and the momentum you can carry with the gtr is amazing, thats were your getting it. That's why the cars so quick.

Shinkaze: Mr. Millen thank you very much for answering my questions.

 

I'll tell you what, when you grow up and can hold your own in an argument with adults, I'll respond. Until then, go back to the playroom with the rest of the class ok?

You don't know the first thing about me, the GT-R, or the Z06. It's very apparent that you have almost zero real driving experience, so tell me why I should give a flying **** what you think?

I prefer to just sit back at this point and watch Suveat69 continually and repeatedly hand you and Chrissy your respective asses.

 

What does video prove?Does it prove is stock?no....so I don't see what the GTR video prove other that a GTR(could be stock or not) got a so called time.

The Z06 did run that,their was a automotive journalist magazine their who confirmed the time and luckily their wasn't contradictions(GTR).



See this is where Nissan fails,for everything they claim to be "stock",somebody says it isn't......7:29 lol

Yeah changing the settings isn't stock IMO

 

Good argument!

You claim ridiculous things based on your "racing heritage", and yet I prove you wrong with facts and specs and you come back with "when you grow up and can hold your own in an argument with adults, I'll respond".
Your right I don't know the first thing about you which is why I'm not attacking you personally I'm attacking the stupid things you say and the misinformation you spread. Unlike you who is the one that wants to make this personal. I'm still waiting for you to responded to how the ZR1 isn't geared for acceleration compared to the CCR or that the CCR is geared for top speed. You could just man up and say you were mistaken! Or you could instead tell me to "grow up".
The good thing about Suveat69 is he is at least brings facts and proof into the discussion rather than I'm a god on a track and know more than blah blah you and my word is all I need.
Stay out of this discussion for your own sake.

 

Can you verify the Z06's time? Thats all I want to know. Other than someones claim, I want to see the video of the Z06.

Was the Zonda stock? Was Porsche 911 stock? How bout the ZR1?

How is that the ZR1 laps the ring faster than the Koenigsegg CC, which weighs almost 600lbs less and makes more power? Yet everyone wants to discredit the GTR's times .

 

YOU made it personal with your last post. Don't put this on me. I am the one who voluntarily bowed out in hopes that it would shut you up and the ZR1 discussion could continue. I THOUGHT you might actually have some maturity and something to actually add to this site, but I was wrong...you're just another idiot with a keyboard and something to prove.

THAT'S why i'm telling you to GROW UP.

YOU need to stay out of this discussion for EVERYONE'S sake.

 

Theirs some cars that can whoop the GTR and Zr1 *** but they just have not gone their.
Yeah you can varify the z06 times,a german magazine was their...so again wtf? does a video prove that a magazine can't?(unless your some crazy guy who needs video for prove...even video doesn't prove a car is stock).

See thats the thing we don't know what was stock,their a chance everybody is lying but unlike the GTR theirs isn't much evedience they were so theirs some good reason to doubt the GTR with the contradictions.

Yeah it beat a CCR driven by a magazine.

 

How can you verify something that hasnt been seen? We have 3 different videos of the GTR. One going against the Zonda on a split screen. One of the 7:38 and one of the 7:29 run.

Why is it that GM offered vids of the Cobalt, Camaro and CTSV yet has refused to release data of the Z06's run?

We dont know if any of the cars that run on the ring are stock. Can you prove to me the Zr1 was stock? How do we know GM didnt slap a pulley upgrade on there?

 

Because a magazine was their to confirm....but who knows maybe the magazine was bought by GM...if you think like that then I guess you should think those cars in those video's are not stock because theirs no prove

I say 2 different videos,I believe that video of the pagani vs GTR is just the same one but edited to compare so who cares....Again the 7:29 time was made with reviesed chassis settings...see this is what Im talking about so many contradictions lol.

camaro,they tested the camaro?....havn't seen the video yet...prove.

They did release the data look for the article of the german magazine and for the internet articles...their were straight forward,saying they had racing seats and other safety equipment for safety reasons...so yeah thats how honest they are.

Yeah their is no prove the zr1 is stock but see things add up unlike the GTR with all the contradictions and other negative things so by logic their is reasons to doubt it.

 

Have they refused to reveal data, or at the time did nobody care on seeing it? Because it seems only until recently that everyone cares about what car ran what at the 'Ring. At the time the Z06 first ran the 'ring, im sure not that many people knew how insane that track actually is, other than those that have raced on it in Gran Turismo. Obviosuly nobody knows if anything is stock when they test cars, im sure every manufacturer has tweaked their cars a bit during testing. I believe the new CTS-V can achieve 10% more power i believe with a bit of tuning froma tuner. And this was said by a GM engineer, and he even said its true because they had tried it already. Same way the ZR1 could have had a pulley swap, the GTR could have been running more boost. And don't forget that around the time the GTR did its fabled 7:29, Nissan was also testing the supposed V-Spec model. So who knows what tricks they played with on the V, that ended up on the standard model to help. Obviously the cars that aren't that easy to mess with are the N/A vehicles like the Z06. Its an N/A motor so even with a bit of tuning your not going to gain a ton of power, as if you tuned an F/I motor. We will never know what tricks automakers do to help their times, all i know is i want to see the vid of the ZR1.
-Joel

 

I didn't know GM revealed data on the Camaro running the ring? I know there were pictures of them testing im sure suspension settings. But i didn't know they actually let out some data about it.
-Joel

 

I wasn't there myself and I'm also saying it is stock too solely based on reading and listening to what the drivers on BOTH sides are saying. I'm just regurgitation information provided by the actual participants. If in your opinion you believe the GTR isn't stock and provide reasons then that's fine, and I won't argue against that but if your claiming it isn't stock as factual than that is different because that's misinformation.

The argument was never that there weren't any stock C6Z06's in the race but that the GTR couldn't beat a stock C6Z06. That was the original discussion, not the other way around. And the final standings show that the GTR "was also good enough to finish ahead of ALL the naturally aspirated Z06 Corvettes", Stock and modified. Were there any stock Z06's, yeah apparently there were. Were they able to beat the GTR in the finals standings? No they weren't...however;

That isn't to say that a C6Z06 can't beat a GTR on a certain track as you have shown they can...

Which gets us back to the whole point of OLOA. If your a racing instructor as you say you are (which I don't doubt either) than you know that different cars are better suited for different kinds of racing. You put a C6Z06 on an oval against a GTR and we can both agree that it's gonna decimate the GTR, and I hope we can agree that if you put them both on a ridiculously windy track and the GTR should come out on top. So yeah, absolutley the GTR lost some races to some C6Z06's at certain tracks...that's gonna happen, you can't win them all, but overall the GTR proved to be faster.
We can at least agree on this right?


Two things...
It isn't unheard of and almost become routine that car manufacturer's will underrate some of their cars, most all of them have done it and most all of them will continue to do so. Does that mean the car isn't stock? No it doesn't. My bone-stock Typhoon was rated at 295hp from the factory yet made 278awhp on a dyno. Does that mean it wasn't stock, no it means it was underrated and the crank hp is closer to 330 as most in the know seem to believe.
I would think Nissan has done the same thing, they claim it's 480hp I tend to think they underrated it and it is closer to 520 or there abouts(maybe more, who knows). Does that mean that it isn't stock? No it doesn't, it means Nissan like GM, Ford, etc... have in the past, has underrated their car for insurance reasons or what have you. If you want to claim Nissan are liars than please include every other car brand that is guilty of it. Fair is fair.
Secondly...
Factory Freaks is what WE call them. We all know someone who has a car that for some reason makes more power stock or modified than a car with similar stock configurations or modified configurations. We chalk it up to just luck or whatever but we've all come across it. I have a friend who is running 8lbs of boost on his radix 5.3L V8 with a 50 shot of nitrous and is making 566/613 at THE WHEELS!! Is that uncharacteristic? Hell Yeah it absolutely is. However his credibility as an individual is without question as he's a super mod on this site, his truck was put together and tuned by a sponsor on this site, he's torn into his truck and provided pictures to people who ask kindly of him and the director of sales at Magnuson who's personally seen the truck even claims that his truck is a freak and tells people not to expect the same out of their set-ups.

 

First I'm not here to butter up Tony's feelings or compare his driving record. I'm of the opinion that Suzuki knows the car better and might do better considering his seat time in the car. And you yourself have admitted that Suzuki has had extensive driving experience in the GTR...

Tony also had not driven the GTR extensively prior to his OLOA competition and he even admitted to being unfamiliar with the car and certain aspects and functions of the car were still a mystery.

He's a good driver but I do believe that Suzuki could potentially do better at VIR being he's more familiar with the car. But that's bench racing and irrelevant to the original point which was just because one driver does great on one track doesn't mean the car will do great on a different track with a different driver.