aurora40

iTrader: (1)

To be fair, the Ford Mustang only became interesting at factory power levels in 2010/2011. And it's the only "fast" car Ford makes. And at that, a Z51 or Grand Sport Corvette would walk all over a Boss 302 or Laguna Seca at a track, and for roughly the same money out the door.

JD03Cobra

Yep! Livernois has many great things to say about the ecoboost motors. A v6 with minimal mods running 12's in a 4300lb car is very impressive...throw that motor in a Ford Fusion with a 6 speed and it's game on.

I don't see GM putting a V8 in the ATS. The 3.6TT is done and will be out soon...It makes more sense to compete against the ecoboost motor with the ATS.

liqidvenom

iTrader: (2)

The LS3 is an old motor. Why would they base a world vehicle around that motor? And last i checked manual LS3's were hand built.

itsslow98

iTrader: (18)

03/04 cobra? 96-98 cobras were beating Lt1s? And comparing a 3100lb vette to a 3600lb mustang on a road course is a bit apples to oranges isnt it? I guarantee the boss 302 would hang right with a z51 or gran sport.

Hell driving my brothers 2011 5.0 makes the V1 feel like a damn boat, it handles insanely better then our car and it was built with a solid rear not IRS and only has brembos on the front and still stops 10 feet shorter then the V1 60-0.

liqidvenom

iTrader: (2)

Around VIR:
Boss 302 Leguna Seca- 3:02.8
Grand sport- 2:58.5
08 z51- 3:01.2

aurora40

iTrader: (1)

I wasn't trying to say Ford sucks or offend you. But they don't make many fast cars stock. The Mustang is about it. And I doubt it on the hanging with a GS. They are fairly apples-apples. They are the best performance car you can buy from GM or Ford at about $45k. No one told Ford their only sports car had to be a pony car that weighs 3,600 lbs.

Which is exactly my point. The Mustang is it in terms of fast Fords. What's their apple to GM's Corvette? And the 4.6L was not fast. The 5.0 is awesome, but it just came out for 2011. The GT500 got sort of interesting in 2010 when it went to 540hp, and more interesting when it lost 150 lbs for 2011 (2013 sounds more interesting still). You are bringing up cars that are almost 10 years old.

Comparing a 5.0 to a V1 doesn't really seem germane, because GM continued developing the V. The current-gen CTS-V doesn't need to worry much about 5.0's. Though I'd point out that 60-0mph braking has everything to do with tires and little to do with the caliber of brakes.

rand49er

There's been talk of two V6s: a new 3.0TT and a 3.6TT.

If GM does indeed go out of its comfort zone on this one and do a TTV6, I'd sure rather see the 3.6TT. Regardless of peak power, I'd like to see as much low-end torque as possible.

A guy sorta gets torque-spoiled having an LSx motor.

qwank

iTrader: (3)

There's never going to be an LS3 in an ATS. IF it ever gets a V8, it will be a Gen 5 engine.

liqidvenom

iTrader: (2)

FYI- 09 CTS-V 3:04.0
Boss 302 Leguna Seca- 3:02.8
FORD MUSTANG SHELBY GT500- 3:04.0
FORD MUSTANG GT 5.0- 3:08.6

This is the Lightning Lap results over the years and for the price... the Boss 302 hurts the V2 around VIR. The V2 coupe is a fraction slower then the V2 sedan. The only mustang slower is a normal 5.0, but that only costs 30-ish.

I would say the current Gen V has a good deal to worry about the 5.0 powered mustangs.

aurora40

iTrader: (1)

Wow, this is getting really pedantic. The V is more car than the Mustang, in terms of room, in terms of doors, in terms of luxury, in terms of utility. It is a ****-ton more car than the Laguna Seca edition, which doesn't even have a back seat anymore.

And, to what has always been my main point, GM makes other cars. Unlike Ford, they make several fast cars. If you want a two-door two-seater that can smoke the Laguna Seca for the same money, buy a Grand Sport (which for reference, ran a 2:58.5, faster than a Ford GT).

Also, all of those cars from Ford you are mentioning are from 2011. Which I believe I was pretty clear about them being finally fast.

The 2010 GT500? 3:07.4
The 2010 Mustang GT 4.6? 3:13.3, slower than a Cobalt SS (one of the many we-don't-only-make-one-fast-car cars GM offered over the last 5 years)

Anyway, if you want to believe Ford makes tons of fast cars, and GM is late to the performance party, go for it.

liqidvenom

iTrader: (2)

You compared the 5.0 to the V2 and said it doesnt have to sorry about the ford. From a performance stand point it does. Who cares how many performance vehicles a company makes? BMW makes more performance vehicles then GM... So does MB and Audi. Does that make a company better because people can bench race one car against another.

Gm can have 88 different performance vehicles. I only own one. And this thread is only about the ATS and what the hopeful V version would be like. Using the argument that one car has more doors or nice rims is stupid when talking about performance. Thats just a numbers game, the feeling of luxury is subjective.

aurora40

iTrader: (1)

Nice straw-man... Nice rims? One company being better than another because of bench racing? Where are you getting any of that from in my posts. Hell, where did I say the V has it on the Laguna Seca? It sure is easy to knock down those arguments I never made, ehh? The numbers you quote show it besting the 5.0 pretty solidly, certainly by a larger margin than the Laguna Seca bests the V by.

Try reading what I replied to, as well as the actual content of my reply:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/15833738-post40.html

The claim is that GM's whole performance cred is on the line because the ZL1, which has more stock horsepower than any Ford product to date, doesn't have forged internals like ballsy Ford uses.

If you think that's the case, or you think Ford makes the best performance cars, or you think a CTS-V to Laguna Seca is an apples-apples comparo, but a Grand Sport to Laguna Seca isn't, or whatever the hell you think, enjoy it. It's getting tedious to reply to.

liqidvenom

iTrader: (2)

Yet you continue to reply.....

Either way what did he say that was wrong? GM is releasing a ZL1 with a motor from 09... which would make it a pretty old motor as far as development cycles are concerned. If everytime the mustang beats the camaro at something you bring up a corvette, well i dunno what to tell you.

Also who said a V-Laguna Seca-grand sport isnt a comparison? All three cars are great, but are good for different reasons. This Ford vs Gm vs whoever is the dumbest thing in the world. All that matters to me is if you build a solid vehicle then I will give it a fair shake. My next car would be the best car i can get for what ever amount I feel like spending, I dont care who makes it.

aurora40

iTrader: (1)

How can the Mustang have beaten the ZL1 at anything yet? The car hasn't even started production.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw-man <-- Just FYI if you aren't familiar...

liqidvenom

iTrader: (2)

The ZL1 motor being from 09 and the mustang being able to beat the camaro at something dont have much to do with each other.

The ZL1 would be released with an older motor. thats a given. it is what it is. No one said the ZL1 lost at anything since it isnt for sale yet.

Today the mustang 5.0 beasts the camaro in most performance categories. Thats what it is. But your counter to looking at lap times of current production vehicles YOU brought up a corvette to compare. Hence the comment you quoted me as saying.

Cadzilla

iTrader: (3)

Cmon guys, set aside your love for caddys and tell me this car isn't bland.. A compact version of the current cts body style would have been much better.

JimmyHemroid

My LS3 Camero is one sweeeet ride. I'm just sayn....

liqidvenom

iTrader: (2)

I saw it yesterday... and its bland in the same way that the cts is the V.

Hopefully it gets a more muscular look when the V versions comes out.

Junior1

SimplistikTA

I stand corrected. All dry sump LS3s(Corvette GS) are hand assembled in Wixom. The rest(Camaros and base Corvettes) are built in Ontario. The LS6 in our V1s were old motors when they came out, but that didn't stop GM from throwing it in a Cadillac to have an entry in the performance luxury market. I would love to see the ATS-V with a powerful TT V6 or a gen V small block, but from a business point of view(based on my limited knowledge of what is exactly in development at GM) it works to throw a LS3 in it and get it to market. We know it makes more than enough power to be competitive in its class with a weight in the 3600-3700lb range. Granted this is all speculation, but it's possible to have it NOW rather than waiting for new tech to be developed and engineered.