Why the PATHETIC rwhp ??
#1
Why the PATHETIC rwhp ??
This is really frustrating...
Z06s dyno 350-360rwhp all day long:
http://www.z06vette.com/forums/poll....lts&pollid=533
V's are dyno'ing at 310-330rwhp:
DgtalPimp: 312rwhp -- http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ad.php?t=14372
R.Ketcham: 317rwhp -- http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ad.php?t=13044
MTI: 318rwhp -- https://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-2004-2007-gen-i/143117-cts-v-dynoed.html
Moreperf: 324rwhp -- https://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-2004-2007-gen-i/154088-new-cold-air-cts-v-proves-great-improvements.html
Cal: 332rwhp -- http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ad.php?t=11476
I have read all the info on the intake and exhaust being restrictive and GM wanting to keep the interior quiet, etc. That's fine... then GM should rate the hp accurately: it's not making 5hp less than the Z06...
The CTS-V is a 365hp car!
I know that the LS6 motor opens up after 1K miles or 5K miles... but plenty of Z06 guys are dynoing <1000 miles, and making 350rwhp+
What's going on here??
Oh... and the best part... I have to pay $6500 and completely void the warrentee to get to 375rwhp... 20 more than the stock Z06... and it takes: heads, cam, intake, x-pipe, programming...
http://www.motorsporttech.com/cts-v_engine01.asp (scroll down and look at the graph)
That's probably what Mallett is getting out of their car too
At this rate, GM is going to have a class-action lawsuit on their hands... (can you say: 1999 SVT Cobra?)
Z06s dyno 350-360rwhp all day long:
http://www.z06vette.com/forums/poll....lts&pollid=533
V's are dyno'ing at 310-330rwhp:
DgtalPimp: 312rwhp -- http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ad.php?t=14372
R.Ketcham: 317rwhp -- http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ad.php?t=13044
MTI: 318rwhp -- https://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-2004-2007-gen-i/143117-cts-v-dynoed.html
Moreperf: 324rwhp -- https://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-2004-2007-gen-i/154088-new-cold-air-cts-v-proves-great-improvements.html
Cal: 332rwhp -- http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ad.php?t=11476
I have read all the info on the intake and exhaust being restrictive and GM wanting to keep the interior quiet, etc. That's fine... then GM should rate the hp accurately: it's not making 5hp less than the Z06...
The CTS-V is a 365hp car!
I know that the LS6 motor opens up after 1K miles or 5K miles... but plenty of Z06 guys are dynoing <1000 miles, and making 350rwhp+
What's going on here??
Oh... and the best part... I have to pay $6500 and completely void the warrentee to get to 375rwhp... 20 more than the stock Z06... and it takes: heads, cam, intake, x-pipe, programming...
http://www.motorsporttech.com/cts-v_engine01.asp (scroll down and look at the graph)
That's probably what Mallett is getting out of their car too
At this rate, GM is going to have a class-action lawsuit on their hands... (can you say: 1999 SVT Cobra?)
#2
i am really not that familiar with the CTS-V - but possible reason for less RWHP could be restrictive exhaust, extra pup cats or different less high flow cats than the ZO6, drivetrain power loss, GM tuning, restrictive air intake, etc....my guess is a good tuner could pick-up some power, even more than what good tuners get out of a ZO6 becuase GM factory ZO6 tune is pretty aggressive.
02-04 - ZO6 commonly dyno about 10rwhp more after 2000 miles, so 344rwhp is common at say 1000miles but when dynoed at 3000 miles they see 355rwhp...
my ZO6 bone stock was 354rwhp, I added air intake to make 360rwhp, added headers to make 376rwhp and tuning to make 383rwhp...then i opened the flood gate and added H/C to get 453rwhp...my point is tuning added less than 8rwhp and that was after some mods that affected A/F ratio, but tuning on a CTS-V could possibly get better results and simple air-intake and removal of pup-cats could get the car in the 355rwhp area.
all said still not correct for GM to advertise misleading HP...
02-04 - ZO6 commonly dyno about 10rwhp more after 2000 miles, so 344rwhp is common at say 1000miles but when dynoed at 3000 miles they see 355rwhp...
my ZO6 bone stock was 354rwhp, I added air intake to make 360rwhp, added headers to make 376rwhp and tuning to make 383rwhp...then i opened the flood gate and added H/C to get 453rwhp...my point is tuning added less than 8rwhp and that was after some mods that affected A/F ratio, but tuning on a CTS-V could possibly get better results and simple air-intake and removal of pup-cats could get the car in the 355rwhp area.
all said still not correct for GM to advertise misleading HP...
Last edited by C5 CU; 06-10-2004 at 11:43 AM.
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I'm going to Copy this is over to the Automotive news section. FWIW the same this happened with the Ford Mustang Cobra, the cars were dynoing well below their stated HP. Cobra owners threatened a class action law suit for false advertising and Ford stepped in and corrected the problem issuing a new Cylinder head and intake to raise HP back to advertised.
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Originally Posted by C5 CU
i am really not that familiar with the CTS-V - but possible reason for less RWHP could be restrictive exhaust, extra pup cats or different less high flow cats than the ZO6, drivetrain power loss, GM tuning, restrictive air intake, etc....my guess is a good tuner could pick-up some power, even more than what good tuners get out of a ZO6 becuase GM factory ZO6 tune is pretty aggressive.
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Link to new Article in Autmotive News, feel free to post this on the cadillac board as well:
Does the CTS-V Make it's Advertised 400hp?
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...87#post1443687
Does the CTS-V Make it's Advertised 400hp?
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...87#post1443687
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GM doesn't rate horsepower at the rear wheels, they rate it at the flywheel. For a car with normal to heavy drivetrain losses, 310-330 at the rear wheels is consistent with 400hp at the flywheel. For instance, the CTS-V uses a dual mass flywheel, which is heavier than a Corvette flywheel, soaking up more power.
We've been spoiled by recent Camaros and Corvettes, which have VERY low drivetrain losses relative to other cars. That's why the Z06 can dyno as high as 350 rwhp with a 405 hp flywheel rating.
Mix in the Dyno to Dyno margin of error, along with the error created by broken in engine v. tight fresh engine, and 350rwhp for a z06 with a flywheel rating of 405, and 310-330rwhp for a CTS-V with a flywheel rating of 400 sounds accurate to me, no conspiracy and nothing to whine about.
I'm still amazed at all the complaining about this car and the GTO. Don't y'all see how good we have it now? 10 to 15 years ago we couldn't fathom cars this good at this obtainable price level. Cadillac and GM are to be applauded, not threatened with lawsuit.
We've been spoiled by recent Camaros and Corvettes, which have VERY low drivetrain losses relative to other cars. That's why the Z06 can dyno as high as 350 rwhp with a 405 hp flywheel rating.
Mix in the Dyno to Dyno margin of error, along with the error created by broken in engine v. tight fresh engine, and 350rwhp for a z06 with a flywheel rating of 405, and 310-330rwhp for a CTS-V with a flywheel rating of 400 sounds accurate to me, no conspiracy and nothing to whine about.
I'm still amazed at all the complaining about this car and the GTO. Don't y'all see how good we have it now? 10 to 15 years ago we couldn't fathom cars this good at this obtainable price level. Cadillac and GM are to be applauded, not threatened with lawsuit.
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#8
CTS V series also has 3.73 gears which grabs a few ponies..IMHO
Not many but a few..
Then add in the under 2000 miles on the engine...(a few ponies)
Then add in the drivetrain loss and even better the variables of the dyno and the temperature of the coolant and the cars right on the money..
The CTS V series is an unbelievable cadillac!
Who ever would have thought they finally leave that northstar out of the engine bay and drop in a lighter, smaller more powerful 400 hp OHV motor..
Great car and done up the right way.
The interiors' great..the exterior is sharp..
The tires and brakes..
the price...
Sure the axle hop blows but I hear the aftermarket has a cure so what the hell!
Wish it came with dual clutch sequential shifter and I'd have one as a daily driver!
Not many but a few..
Then add in the under 2000 miles on the engine...(a few ponies)
Then add in the drivetrain loss and even better the variables of the dyno and the temperature of the coolant and the cars right on the money..
The CTS V series is an unbelievable cadillac!
Who ever would have thought they finally leave that northstar out of the engine bay and drop in a lighter, smaller more powerful 400 hp OHV motor..
Great car and done up the right way.
The interiors' great..the exterior is sharp..
The tires and brakes..
the price...
Sure the axle hop blows but I hear the aftermarket has a cure so what the hell!
Wish it came with dual clutch sequential shifter and I'd have one as a daily driver!
#9
The 14" rotors actually rob horsepower as well. Rotating mass plays a big role in net HP. This was actually proven on tuner television about a month ago. During their build up of their RSX they added a CAIK, exhaust and larger brakes. Went to the dyno and actually LOST horsepower. Certainly the CAIK and exhaust had increased the power? The engineers got involved and sure enough the larger rotors had taken all the power gains because of the increased rotating mass.
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Originally Posted by TTopJohn
GM doesn't rate horsepower at the rear wheels, they rate it at the flywheel. For a car with normal to heavy drivetrain losses, 310-330 at the rear wheels is consistent with 400hp at the flywheel.
For instance, the CTS-V uses a dual mass flywheel, which is heavier than a Corvette flywheel, soaking up more power.
We've been spoiled by recent Camaros and Corvettes, which have VERY low drivetrain losses relative to other cars. That's why the Z06 can dyno as high as 350 rwhp with a 405 hp flywheel rating.
Okay how about this. The CTS-V is based on the Sigma Chassis which is the next generation version of the Opal Omega chassis that currently underpins the GTO. The Driveline of these two cars is pratically identicle, and the chassis similarities between the GTO and CTS-V are about as similar as a Third Gen and 4th Gen F-Body.
Some dynos of the new New Pontiac GTO (Manual)
298 RWHP
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthr...highlight=dyno
298.6 RWHP
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthr...highlight=dyno
297.5 RWHP
http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...407pon_engine/
The Goat is rated at 350hp. 298RWHP at 15% drivetrain loss is 350.58 HP.
The GTO driveline is almost identicle to the CTS-V, and they should see almost identicle drivetrain losses. On those dynos on those days with the same 15% drivetrain loss as experienced by the GTOs, a CTS-V should have made 340RWHP. I haven't seen anyone close to that number yet?
Now looking at LS1 Corvettes to Z06 Corvettes, off the top of my head I recall they tend to range from 300-310 Rwhp for the LS1 and 355-ish for the Z06 LS6. On the exact same car exact same platform.
So why do we not see that same spread (45-55 RWHP) between the GTO(ls1) and CTS-V(ls6)? Rather we see a 10-20 RWHP spread at the wheels for a 50 hp crank diff?
-Adam
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Originally Posted by cvp33
The 14" rotors actually rob horsepower as well. Rotating mass plays a big role in net HP. This was actually proven on tuner television about a month ago. During their build up of their RSX they added a CAIK, exhaust and larger brakes. Went to the dyno and actually LOST horsepower. Certainly the CAIK and exhaust had increased the power? The engineers got involved and sure enough the larger rotors had taken all the power gains because of the increased rotating mass.
FWIW Though Here is a dyno showing a similar result by adding ~15 pounds to the rear wheels by going from 17x9" 275 to 17x11" 315 he lost 3.6 hp.
http://www.ws6.com/wheels.htm
Still not enough.
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Originally Posted by Adam Bruce
the CTS-V Chassis (Sigma) is being economized for less expensive cars like the next gen GTO and 5th gen Camaro (Zeta platform) Are you saying the next gen Camaro will have way higher driveline losses?
-Adam
-Adam
I think this is way to much worrying over a piddly amount of horsepower difference that only exists on dynosheets and doesn't show up in performance tests or in the seat of your pants. Comparing horsepower spread between different cars (C5s, GTOs and CTS-Vs) is not too terribly scientific. If someone pulls the LS6 out of a CTS-V, and pulls the LS6 out of a Z06, puts them on the same engine dyno and comes up with different numbers, then get upset. Till then, it's just a more elaborate level of bench racing.
Or just go drive the thing and enjoy the perma-smile it puts on your face
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Originally Posted by TTopJohn
I sure hope the next gen Camaro has higher driveline losses - particularly in the form of a beefier heavier axle that can better handle the power the car puts out and wasn't originally designed for a S-10 pickup.
I think this is way to much worrying over a piddly amount of horsepower difference that only exists on dynosheets and doesn't show up in performance tests or in the seat of your pants.
Comparing horsepower spread between different cars (C5s, GTOs and CTS-Vs) is not too terribly scientific.
Remeber, Ford thought they had a 320hp motor in their 1999 Cobra, and it wasn't until the car was mass-produced that they realized there was a problem making the 320hp Cobra Dyno less than the 305 hp 98 Cobra. Who brought this to Ford? The Automotive community (us) discovered this, we used the Internet to join forces and make Ford accountable for fixing the problem (which they did). Same thing happened with the BMW M3. The Internet is the most powerful consumer advocacy group ever.
I posted this elsewere too but, maybe a better way to sum it up is this. Your shifter shows a 6 speed pattern.
How would you feel if you went to shift into 6th and found it wasn't there? I mean the car is just as fun with a 5 speed as a six speed right? Never mind you paid for a 6 speed car and were told it was a 6-speed car, and it even shows 6th gear on the shifter...but oddly enough, not there.
I would be pissed, not sure why you all are not pissed off too.
We have to find out why the car won't engage 6th gear. Is it because it was never there and it was just marketed wrong? Is it there and some crud is keeping us from engaging it? Either way this problem needs to be aknowledged so those affected can start to analyze it. Right now I'm getting the feeling folks are just sticking their heads in the sand about this.
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Because if 6th gear is not there as advertised, it is a verifiable fact. This "missing horsepower" is not, not until you pull the engines from a Z06 and a CTS-V and run them on the same engine dyno. Which I bet Lingenfelter has already done, they do it as part of their packages.
If you want to use RWHP spread between the GTO and the CTS-V, how about these numbers: MTI got 297 rwhp from their GTO, and 318 from their CTS-V. 21 RWHP difference sounds plausible if the flywheel horsepower difference is 50 and the CTS-V has beefier things sucking up power (rotors, tires, 6 lug hubs, etc...)
If you want to use RWHP spread between the GTO and the CTS-V, how about these numbers: MTI got 297 rwhp from their GTO, and 318 from their CTS-V. 21 RWHP difference sounds plausible if the flywheel horsepower difference is 50 and the CTS-V has beefier things sucking up power (rotors, tires, 6 lug hubs, etc...)
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Originally Posted by TTopJohn
Because if 6th gear is not there as advertised, it is a verifiable fact. This "missing horsepower" is not, not until you pull the engines from a Z06 and a CTS-V and run them on the same engine dyno. Which I bet Lingenfelter has already done, they do it as part of their packages.
If you want to use RWHP spread between the GTO and the CTS-V, how about these numbers: MTI got 297 rwhp from their GTO, and 318 from their CTS-V. 21 RWHP difference sounds plausible if the flywheel horsepower difference is 50 and the CTS-V has beefier things sucking up power (rotors, tires, 6 lug hubs, etc...)
If you want to use RWHP spread between the GTO and the CTS-V, how about these numbers: MTI got 297 rwhp from their GTO, and 318 from their CTS-V. 21 RWHP difference sounds plausible if the flywheel horsepower difference is 50 and the CTS-V has beefier things sucking up power (rotors, tires, 6 lug hubs, etc...)
The weight of 1 extra lug per rim and larger brakes doesn't make that much of a difference. Keith at WS6.com dynoed 3.3 RWHP difference going from 2759" rims to 315 11" rims. That's well over a 30 Lb Gain in rotational mass. For driveline weight gain to equal the missing power, based on Keith's data the CTS-V would have to have 300 lbs more of rotational Mass over the GTO to account for the power delta.
I think the more plausable explanation is something mechnical is messed up with these cars as was the case with the Cobra and the RX8 when they were short of their dynos as well.
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Originally Posted by Adam Bruce
You're saying to takes 30 more HP to spin the same driveline in the CTS-V over the GTO? The ENTIRE DRIVELINE LOSS of a GTO at 297 RWHP is 53 hp!
The CTS isn't even on the same platform as the GTO. The GTO is on the older platform that brought us the Catera, the CTS is on the current Sigma architecture.
Another thing - how do we know the GTO flywheel horsepower number isn't underrated?
When you attempt to determine the exact FWHP of one car by comparing its RWHP to rated FWHP ratio with the the RWHP to Rated FWHP ratio of another car, (with a similar engine and similar driveline) , there is plenty of margin of error. And 30 rwhp is within that margin.
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Originally Posted by TTopJohn
Yep, that's what I'm saying. Except it's not exactly the same driveline. It's the same tranny. Other than that, we don't know without crawling under a CTS-V. If the dual mass flywheel is any sign of the way the engineers were going with the V program, I bet there is a lot of extra beefiness in the driveline in the name of smoothness, low NVH and holding up to the extra power. Maybe a driveshaft flex disk (guibo in BMW circles). Maybe a beefier driveshaft.
The CTS isn't even on the same platform as the GTO. The GTO is on the older platform that brought us the Catera, the CTS is on the current Sigma architecture.
Yet your hypothosis for why the numbers are so low is that the "Next Generation Chassis" is 5% less efficient? With tightening fuel restrictions, I find that a hard line to believe. The more likely scenario is the motor is just simply not making 400hp.
Another thing - how do we know the GTO flywheel horsepower number isn't underrated?
When you attempt to determine the exact FWHP of one car by comparing its RWHP to rated FWHP ratio with the the RWHP to Rated FWHP ratio of another car, (with a similar engine and similar driveline) , there is plenty of margin of error. And 30 rwhp is within that margin.
When you attempt to determine the exact FWHP of one car by comparing its RWHP to rated FWHP ratio with the the RWHP to Rated FWHP ratio of another car, (with a similar engine and similar driveline) , there is plenty of margin of error. And 30 rwhp is within that margin.
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Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
I recall a shop telling me that the stock CTS-V exhaust is pretty restrictive.
Anyhow this really ticks me off as the CTS-V was high on the list for a Fall purchase..... of course I might not have the luxury of waiting till the fall with the way my TA is acting up.
#20
Adam,
Your arguments, while intentions may be somewhat good, are truely baseless. Just because so and so at ws6.com got a 3.x rwhp gain/loss for X amount of weight does not mean it translates to another vehicle the same. The Corvettes torque tube and rear mount tranny are a negligible issue in the dyno numbers between a Vette and F-body. The much larger difference is the IRS versus a live rear axle.
Also, before you go getting all hyped up about some lawsuites and such, it is wise to remember that you have very little to gain from pushing such action. The owners will loose value, GM will reconsider the vehicle and in the end the consumer who purchased looses(ask any of the Cobra owners affected).
It would be wise to see some higher milage dyno's of the CTS-V and find out what TM parameters exist in the PCM. This car is, after all, a Cadillac and may have much more TM parameters present than the Z06.
Also, the Vette does not enjoy the luxury of 14" Brembo's and actually has smaller rotors(even the new C6 has smaller rotors). The CTS-V does not enjoy the lightweight wheels the Z06 has(don't start the WS6.com says stuff again, even day to day dyno'ing on the same dyno can produce the difference you are talking about).
The reality of the situation is that 17% to 20% is the drivetrain loss expected from a vehicle such as the CTS-V with IRS. It would be closer to the 20% number is the flywheel is truely a dual mass unit(for your own dyno information, I got over 10rwhp for a aluminum flywheel and ACPT CF driveshaft on my 98 WS6). The last time I did some math, 20% of 400hp is 80hp. 320rwhp is about right. Lets see some higher milage dyno's now.
Todd
Your arguments, while intentions may be somewhat good, are truely baseless. Just because so and so at ws6.com got a 3.x rwhp gain/loss for X amount of weight does not mean it translates to another vehicle the same. The Corvettes torque tube and rear mount tranny are a negligible issue in the dyno numbers between a Vette and F-body. The much larger difference is the IRS versus a live rear axle.
Also, before you go getting all hyped up about some lawsuites and such, it is wise to remember that you have very little to gain from pushing such action. The owners will loose value, GM will reconsider the vehicle and in the end the consumer who purchased looses(ask any of the Cobra owners affected).
It would be wise to see some higher milage dyno's of the CTS-V and find out what TM parameters exist in the PCM. This car is, after all, a Cadillac and may have much more TM parameters present than the Z06.
Also, the Vette does not enjoy the luxury of 14" Brembo's and actually has smaller rotors(even the new C6 has smaller rotors). The CTS-V does not enjoy the lightweight wheels the Z06 has(don't start the WS6.com says stuff again, even day to day dyno'ing on the same dyno can produce the difference you are talking about).
The reality of the situation is that 17% to 20% is the drivetrain loss expected from a vehicle such as the CTS-V with IRS. It would be closer to the 20% number is the flywheel is truely a dual mass unit(for your own dyno information, I got over 10rwhp for a aluminum flywheel and ACPT CF driveshaft on my 98 WS6). The last time I did some math, 20% of 400hp is 80hp. 320rwhp is about right. Lets see some higher milage dyno's now.
Todd