We have talked about this in passing a couple times. As carb guys, do we have different needs for a wideband than the EFI guys?

There are so many choices and so many options that it makes my head spin. Currently I am leaning toward the LM-2 basic.

What say you?

 

I use a simple NGK setup. it was 249. It came with a quality NTK sensor.
It is not a pretty guage, but it is easy to see since it has a BRIGHT red number display.
I dont think carb guys need anything different than efi guys, we need to have a referance to what is happening in the motor. you can go simple with something like what I run, or you can go fancy with something that datalogs so you can look over the data later, instead of while driving.
If you go with a setup that data logs, I recommend getting a unit that can log more than just the A/F ratio, as you will need to reference the A/F to something else to be able to understand the data.
A/F, rpm and throttle position vs time, would be ideal, but just A/f and rpm vs time would do.

I have heard BAD things about the LM-2's rpm input, and that it is not reliable, just an FYI.
Barrett

 

I'm planning on getting the FAST Dual wideband setup.

 

I have read a several places that the reading that the NGK unit gives is different from all the other units. That is read a .5 higher or something like that and you have to "interpret" the number or apply a formula to it. I thought that was really odd. Can you explain this?

 

No, I cant explain it, I dont know anything about that. All I know is I remove my O2 sensor and calibrate it before I start in on a tuning session.

 

i run the AEM uego along with several of my buddies $200 with a guage and LED readout.

My only gripe is there is no tach input/datalog software, but that is on the more expensive ones only. Maybe in a year or two I'll sell mine and buy one when I find that piggy bank money

 

I have the cheap Inovate wide band(200$), love it, helped me dial from a 14.5-15:1 to 12.5-13.0:1, picked up a couple MPH at the track tonight.

 

I have the LM2. It took a couple of tries to get the RPM right, but haven't had much trouble with it since. I know the early units had very bad RPM input, but Innovate issued sometype of firmware update a year or two back.

The unit itself is a little flaky at times. It only likes certain SD cards, gets hung up and needs to have the power cycled from time to time. Probably shouldn't happen with a unit this expensive, but it's not hard to work around either. It only drops out occasionally so it still returns plenty of info to tune.

have to agree with the others who say you really need the RPM data to make sense of anything. The LM2 has 4 analog inputs in addition to the tach. Pretty easy to record vacuum from the map sensor. Add a TPS to the carb and you have a lot of info.

 

I use an Innovate LM-1 + their RPM convertor. Bought together, they are # IN-3724. While these are not the newest models, they can still be purchased new from various sources. (E-bay, etc.) I chose them for a couple of reasons......from reading various threads on Inovates forum, it seemed to me they had less problems than the LM2. Another reason for me was the RPM convertor uses a 5 volt source to log from sensors, so I could use the 5 volt source on my MSD 6010. (I wanted to log my MAP sensor and I will eventually log a TP sensor. RPM is logged by simply hooking up a wire to the tach. I didn't want a permanent guage. The LM-1 has a large lighted face that you can read easily, but I don't like trying to read a guage when the hammer is DOWN, LOL. You can log from a few seconds up to 45 minutes with the LM-1 and also store the file on your PC. One thing I really like is it logs in hundreths of a second. You can stage at say 1600 RPM, hammer the throttle and go through the gears to, say 5500RPM....let off, and with your MAP and RPM and AFR logged, you can tell to the hundreth when you matted the throttle and to the hundreth and also the exact RPM you let off. You also have a graph showing the AFR when you hit it (accelerator pump) and whether it leans out or richens during the run. Kind'a like a mini drag strip, LOL. If you want to see what the logs look like, go to www.innovatemotorsports.com and download their firmware, then go into the forum where people post files all the time. You can also register and use their search for some interesting info. I got a heck of a deal when I bought mine off E-bay. Brand new, except someone had robbed the exhaust bung out of it. Ron

 

Do you all think data logging is necessary or a carbed engine?

 

From what these guys are saying it seems like the data logging would invaluable in dialing in the carb. I'm sold! I got an auto meter catalog in the mail the other day and they have a new line of guages that data log the readings from all of em! Kinda pricey but really cool! They're called Ultra Lite Pro.

 

The most cost effective solutions that I have read about for Data Logging are the Innovate products. The LM2 is a self contained portable unit which has had quite a bit of criticism for problems. The cheapest being the LC1 which comes with free laptop data logging software and is very popular, but I have also read about people having problems with them. So, I guess the question becomes: What is the most cost effective, reliable and accurate total solution for wideband with data logging?

 

Well I'm going with the poor man's approach this coming spring, a digital camera mounted to my roll bar pointed at the wideband, since the innovate stuff is known for having issues, so I'm unsure what is reliable. I do know lots of people use the AEM uego like i do and use it with hp tuners to datalog an efi motor with no issues.

 

i have the lc1 on my turbo sbc and it works great, just make sure it has a good ground(opps).

 

I have had 0 problems with my LM-1, RPM convertor combination. I like to be able to save the log files so I can go back anytime and compare them. This way you can actually see if you have made improvements from small changes over a period of time. Some changes are so subtle, you would never notice the results on a guage. The software has many extra tools you can use to compare files directly to each other. The set up I have is still available new with free shipping on E-bay for $379.00. I don't know how that compares to others.

 

Have you ever tried to log your MAP sensor data with that too?

 

Yes, I log the MAP sensor on my MSD 6010. As I mentioned in the previous post, the RPM convertor needs a 5 volt source to log up to 4 different sensors. I log my MAP by simply tapping into the MAP sensor signal wire (LT GRN Pin-B) and the 5 volt supply wire (ORNG Pin-C) The tach is logged by splicing into the YELLOW wire (Pin-H). You can also set up a separate 5 volt source by using cheap parts from Radio Shack to build a small convertor if you prefer. This is covered in the instructions or you can find it on their forum. The software allows you to log the MAP in PSIA, like MSD does, or in inhg like most would do. Logging the RPM and vacuum lets you see what the AFR is doing under different loads and in my case lets me see the exact instant the throttle is matted (vacuum goes to almost 0 ) or when you lift (just the opposite). I can follow the RPM line and tell the exact moment I reach say 5000RPM in high gear. If I have made changes in timing or jetting, or driving technique or whatever, I can go back and look at previous files and see if I have made any improvement, or if the time has increased, LOL. Although I haven't tried it, you can even overlay the files to see subtle changes. A lot of the guys on Innovates forum log Throttle position sensors to see what % of throttle they are at when trying to calibrate a carb for mileage and some log fuel pressure to find problems in the fuel supply. There are many ways to use the capability of logging various sensors. Besides that...It's kind'a fun!

 

I can see how I might get into that. We must be nuts.

 

I did tons of research before ordering my setup. I went with a zeitronix wide band with a map sensor and sensor for my fuel pressure. I also tapped into my TPS for my bauman trans controller and my MSD for my RPM referance. Pretty awesome to log AFR, Fuel Press, TPS, RPM, and Manifold pressure. Going to be very helpful when I intall the Blower in a week or two.

I am very happy with the quality of the zeitronix and you have the option of a Pod mount display that you can scroll through all the inputs you give it with the push of a button or a rectangular display that shows them all at once. I went with the pod mount.

 

I have used a LC1 on my mustang for years with no problems. I have a LM1 also and it works great. I use data logging for anything other than drivability and idle stuff.

Tim