Hard Start issue !updated!
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: waco,tx
Hard Start issue !updated! Hey guys could use some help!! Me and my dad recently swap a LS408 into his 70 nova. We bought the vic jr intake setup that has the edelbrock ls1 timing module. Motor is pretty healthy. 13.3 cr and solid roller. We have it setup for E85. Has a quick fuel 750 mechanical secondaries. (its small i know ha!) The motor will not start on its own. You shoot some starter fluid down the carb and it will bust off and sound great. But will not start any other way. From what ive read the timing on the supplied pills setting at cranking rpm is pretty low. Like 15 degrees! The motor when EFI liked a lot more timing high 20's and liked high 20's even at idle. I'm wanting to know if i switch to the new MSD 6014 adjustable timing box, where i can raise the starting timing if this will fix the hard start issue were having.
Ask anything that i may have left out!
Thanks in advance!!
Ask anything that i may have left out!
Thanks in advance!!
Last edited by 00pewtertransam; Apr 9, 2017 at 02:47 PM.
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You need to get a 850 double pumper for that if its got some good flowing heads on it. IMO I would get rid of that Edy box and get the 6014 msd. Do not use the pills. Zero the map. We ran a Sullens carb. He has you run it rich with lots of timing. Our motor loved timing. We finally settled in at 37* ours was. 4* at start going straight to 37 at 800rpm then flat line straight across. Throttle response was insane. We are 14:1
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: waco,tx
You need to get a 850 double pumper for that if its got some good flowing heads on it. IMO I would get rid of that Edy box and get the 6014 msd. Do not use the pills. Zero the map. We ran a Sullens carb. He has you run it rich with lots of timing. Our motor loved timing. We finally settled in at 37* ours was. 4* at start going straight to 37 at 800rpm then flat line straight across. Throttle response was insane. We are 14:1
I've already downloaded the software and set up an inatial tune. Based off some of the timing from the EFI tune. Just wanting to make sure the next move is gonna help fix it not wanting to start up.
Is your motor E85? Cause I'm wondering how much the fuel is playing into the hard start issue.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: waco,tx
Breakdown of the motor in case it helps
Iron LS408ci
13.3 to 1 compression ratio
Trick flow 235cc heads
Callie's crank and rods
Custom diamond pistons
Total seal rings gapped for nitrous
Custom specd nitrous cam
654/647 lift 251/262 duration @50 111+4 lsa
ARP main and head studs
Edelbrock Vic JR
Quickfuel 750cfm E85 mechanical secondaries
Iron LS408ci
13.3 to 1 compression ratio
Trick flow 235cc heads
Callie's crank and rods
Custom diamond pistons
Total seal rings gapped for nitrous
Custom specd nitrous cam
654/647 lift 251/262 duration @50 111+4 lsa
ARP main and head studs
Edelbrock Vic JR
Quickfuel 750cfm E85 mechanical secondaries
Last edited by 00pewtertransam; Mar 14, 2017 at 06:49 PM.
Too much timing during cranking will make the car hard to start. firing the pulse too soon makes the starter work harder, especially with that much compression.
Adding a MAP sensor really helped my LS2 start more easily. Allowed me to pull out static timing and make up for it with vac advance. I run a stock cam and had to set my 500 RPM timing stupid low to get the idle speeds down while keeping 20 thousands of the transfer slot showing. Really helped spin the motor faster during cranking. You probably won't need to worry about that with your big *** cam but try reducing the timing at 500 RPM and add it back in at 1000 RPM
You confused me, you said you have already loaded a new tune? The Edlebrock boxes don't have a serial port, they won't let you hook up a lap top and don't allow custom tunes. If you already have the type of box that allows connecting a laptop than you don't need a 6014 box. With that much motor you absolutely must ditch the pills and tune by laptop.
Carb motors like more full RPM timing than EFI so be a little careful with EFI numbers.
What sort of cranking RPM are you reading on the laptop when trying to start the motor? Maybe you need a gear reduction starter. Big displacement, big compression, big cam = tough to crank.
Also how did you tune the carb, do you have a wideband O2 available? You checked for vac leaks?
Adding a MAP sensor really helped my LS2 start more easily. Allowed me to pull out static timing and make up for it with vac advance. I run a stock cam and had to set my 500 RPM timing stupid low to get the idle speeds down while keeping 20 thousands of the transfer slot showing. Really helped spin the motor faster during cranking. You probably won't need to worry about that with your big *** cam but try reducing the timing at 500 RPM and add it back in at 1000 RPM
You confused me, you said you have already loaded a new tune? The Edlebrock boxes don't have a serial port, they won't let you hook up a lap top and don't allow custom tunes. If you already have the type of box that allows connecting a laptop than you don't need a 6014 box. With that much motor you absolutely must ditch the pills and tune by laptop.
Carb motors like more full RPM timing than EFI so be a little careful with EFI numbers.
What sort of cranking RPM are you reading on the laptop when trying to start the motor? Maybe you need a gear reduction starter. Big displacement, big compression, big cam = tough to crank.
Also how did you tune the carb, do you have a wideband O2 available? You checked for vac leaks?
Last edited by Pop N Wood; Mar 15, 2017 at 04:35 AM.
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Those are good heads. What cc chambers do they have. Because it sounds like you got the same pistons we have. 13.3 Diamonds. We have 65cc chambers and it puts us at 14.2:1 to be exact with those pistons. Your cam specs are very close to what we had. Hopefully you got light weight valves in those heads. If not I would change them. We had Pac double springs good for a .650 lift and they were not strong enough. The valves would start floating around 6500. And make sure you have at least .120 wall push rods too. Hopefully this helps. That bad boy is going to thump hard. Ours is a father and son project as well. You guys are going to have a blast. Best of Luck.
Also, I was under the impression you had an Edy box. Those cannot be programmed. You can only use those pills. Like already stated, if you can program it, you will not need the 6014.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: waco,tx
Too much timing during cranking will make the car hard to start. firing the pulse too soon makes the starter work harder, especially with that much compression.
Adding a MAP sensor really helped my LS2 start more easily. Allowed me to pull out static timing and make up for it with vac advance. I run a stock cam and had to set my 500 RPM timing stupid low to get the idle speeds down while keeping 20 thousands of the transfer slot showing. Really helped spin the motor faster during cranking. You probably won't need to worry about that with your big *** cam but try reducing the timing at 500 RPM and add it back in at 1000 RPM
You confused me, you said you have already loaded a new tune? The Edlebrock boxes don't have a serial port, they won't let you hook up a lap top and don't allow custom tunes. If you already have the type of box that allows connecting a laptop than you don't need a 6014 box. With that much motor you absolutely must ditch the pills and tune by laptop.
Carb motors like more full RPM timing than EFI so be a little careful with EFI numbers.
What sort of cranking RPM are you reading on the laptop when trying to start the motor? Maybe you need a gear reduction starter. Big displacement, big compression, big cam = tough to crank.
Also how did you tune the carb, do you have a wideband O2 available? You checked for vac leaks?
Adding a MAP sensor really helped my LS2 start more easily. Allowed me to pull out static timing and make up for it with vac advance. I run a stock cam and had to set my 500 RPM timing stupid low to get the idle speeds down while keeping 20 thousands of the transfer slot showing. Really helped spin the motor faster during cranking. You probably won't need to worry about that with your big *** cam but try reducing the timing at 500 RPM and add it back in at 1000 RPM
You confused me, you said you have already loaded a new tune? The Edlebrock boxes don't have a serial port, they won't let you hook up a lap top and don't allow custom tunes. If you already have the type of box that allows connecting a laptop than you don't need a 6014 box. With that much motor you absolutely must ditch the pills and tune by laptop.
Carb motors like more full RPM timing than EFI so be a little careful with EFI numbers.
What sort of cranking RPM are you reading on the laptop when trying to start the motor? Maybe you need a gear reduction starter. Big displacement, big compression, big cam = tough to crank.
Also how did you tune the carb, do you have a wideband O2 available? You checked for vac leaks?
Sorry no i dont not have the 6014. I downloaded the software to check it out and see what it was about. I like it simple and straight forward.
The graph i have to start with ramps from 27* to 32*. EFI wise it made max power at 32* and liked to idle at 27*. And Ii know carb likes more timing so i thought this might be a good starting point.
i do not know on the cranking rpm. im still using the factory starter from my 2000 Trans AM. ha! We've had it smoking a few times trying to start this damn thing. LOL! We have talked about getting a different starter. Just not familiar with them and how much it may actually help.
Ive just done basic tuning so far on the carb. I haven't been able to get much past that. I do have a wide band. Just haven't pulled it out to use it yet. Vacuum leaks i haven't checked for. There's only one vacuum port and its for the map sensor that came with the edy box kit. The big port on the back of the intake is plugged. Car has manual brakes.
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Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: waco,tx
Yes our motor was E85. Just got sick of cleaning the carb after every time we ran it. But that's just my opinion. If it's below 60 degrees out side. Ours would hard start because E85 is harder to fire. I used a heat gun and would warm the intake up till it felt warm to the touch and then it would fire right up. And I mean one maybe two revolutions tops. Sounds like a lot, but we would do 6 full pumps on the accelerator and then it would fire right up. But that is just on a cold start. Summer time. Six pumps and one revolution and it would lite right up when cold.
Those are good heads. What cc chambers do they have. Because it sounds like you got the same pistons we have. 13.3 Diamonds. We have 65cc chambers and it puts us at 14.2:1 to be exact with those pistons. Your cam specs are very close to what we had. Hopefully you got light weight valves in those heads. If not I would change them. We had Pac double springs good for a .650 lift and they were not strong enough. The valves would start floating around 6500. And make sure you have at least .120 wall push rods too. Hopefully this helps. That bad boy is going to thump hard. Ours is a father and son project as well. You guys are going to have a blast. Best of Luck.
Also, I was under the impression you had an Edy box. Those cannot be programmed. You can only use those pills. Like already stated, if you can program it, you will not need the 6014.
Those are good heads. What cc chambers do they have. Because it sounds like you got the same pistons we have. 13.3 Diamonds. We have 65cc chambers and it puts us at 14.2:1 to be exact with those pistons. Your cam specs are very close to what we had. Hopefully you got light weight valves in those heads. If not I would change them. We had Pac double springs good for a .650 lift and they were not strong enough. The valves would start floating around 6500. And make sure you have at least .120 wall push rods too. Hopefully this helps. That bad boy is going to thump hard. Ours is a father and son project as well. You guys are going to have a blast. Best of Luck.
Also, I was under the impression you had an Edy box. Those cannot be programmed. You can only use those pills. Like already stated, if you can program it, you will not need the 6014.
well that's sounding great. sounds like the 6014 is bout to be ordered. Dad already said to order it if i think this will fix it. Just tryin to make sure first. ha!
The heads are right out of the box with 70cc chambers. The only change was the springs. i added PRC 675 lift springs. I do have a custom piston though. +10.6 dome.
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Staging Lane
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: waco,tx
What gear reduction starters have you guys used?
Doing a lil looking around. And i like what im seeing with the
Powermaster power plus max PN- 9009
I see one rating saying its good to 14-1 and another saying upwards of 16-1 compression. Either way that's more than i have.
Doing a lil looking around. And i like what im seeing with the
Powermaster power plus max PN- 9009
I see one rating saying its good to 14-1 and another saying upwards of 16-1 compression. Either way that's more than i have.
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,266
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We run the MSD starter. Whips it right over. Not sure on the price of the power master. But they are very good as well. Make sure on the valves. That was our problem. We had the ones that came with the heads. They were solid and heavy. They said they would be fine. Famous last words. We changed them to titainium intake and inconel exhaust. Call Trick Flow and see what is in them. Just to be sure. Oh and dont forget about the push rods. Don't forget. Well at least it sounds like your going to be spraying it. So take that into consideration on everything. You should be 700 plus HP for sure on motor. Sounds like a fun build. Enjoy
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: waco,tx
We run the MSD starter. Whips it right over. Not sure on the price of the power master. But they are very good as well. Make sure on the valves. That was our problem. We had the ones that came with the heads. They were solid and heavy. They said they would be fine. Famous last words. We changed them to titainium intake and inconel exhaust. Call Trick Flow and see what is in them. Just to be sure. Oh and dont forget about the push rods. Don't forget. Well at least it sounds like your going to be spraying it. So take that into consideration on everything. You should be 700 plus HP for sure on motor. Sounds like a fun build. Enjoy
I built motor for a good shot of spray. But dads not a fan of that. Do motor will be na for a while. Ha! But this box allows me to add it later now. I think I only have .080 wall rods now. But like I said we're not going for all out power at the moment. So won't be slot of high revving rpm's. Just want to be able to drive this thing a lil bit.
Powermaster power plus max 9009 on jegs for $190
Msd dynaforce gm ls series 5096 $302
Last edited by 00pewtertransam; Mar 15, 2017 at 11:51 AM.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: waco,tx
Well the first pump i ran was a meiling high pressure/high volume. And something was wrong with it. i had to use my trans pressure gauge to see exactly how much pressure i had it was so much. Just a blip of the throttle and it would have 180psi of oil pressure. Changed the spring and no better. i ended up with a ported LS6. it'll be 40psi at warm idle and close to 100psi WOT.
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Melling. But to use a standard volume, high pressure Melling. But that pump you got is very good. Sounds just like our oil pressure.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: waco,tx
But was curious as to Walmart plug your running with your motor. At the moment with it being to hard to start I've been having to run a pretty hot plug. Like a TR6. I know I need to atleast be a BR7EF on motor with maybe a small shot of spray and in the 8-9 heat range prolly on anything 200 shot and up. But anything non projected makes it even harder to start.
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We ran the R5671A-7 NGK Racing plugs. Non projected non resistor gapped at .035. They are way more hot than the resistor plugs. The timing was everything on start up and shut down. It seemed like 0-4 degrees on start up would let it shut down with 0 run on. Then we ramped straight to 37 by 800. But there you move from 400 to 800 to get it to start the quickest. We have the 58 tooth reluctor. Not sure if that matters. Our carb builder wanted us to try those plugs on spray too but we never did spray it when on E85. He had us doing things way different than everyone else does. It ran good too. Plugs looked good. Not sure how your carb was built, but if I was you, I would start off at like 26 and see what your motor likes at the track. As we came up in timing, when we hit 36, it was like someone flipped a switch. The throttle response off idle went crazy responsive. Then we hit 37 and it was even better mph wise. Tried 38 but nothing changed so we went back to 37. But that was ours, yours could be completely different. If you let it set for even a week, make sure you check the float bowls for gel. If it gets in the circuits and it will lean your tune out.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: waco,tx
We ran the R5671A-7 NGK Racing plugs. Non projected non resistor gapped at .035. They are way more hot than the resistor plugs. The timing was everything on start up and shut down. It seemed like 0-4 degrees on start up would let it shut down with 0 run on. Then we ramped straight to 37 by 800. But there you move from 400 to 800 to get it to start the quickest. We have the 58 tooth reluctor. Not sure if that matters. Our carb builder wanted us to try those plugs on spray too but we never did spray it when on E85. He had us doing things way different than everyone else does. It ran good too. Plugs looked good. Not sure how your carb was built, but if I was you, I would start off at like 26 and see what your motor likes at the track. As we came up in timing, when we hit 36, it was like someone flipped a switch. The throttle response off idle went crazy responsive. Then we hit 37 and it was even better mph wise. Tried 38 but nothing changed so we went back to 37. But that was ours, yours could be completely different. If you let it set for even a week, make sure you check the float bowls for gel. If it gets in the circuits and it will lean your tune out.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: waco,tx
Well got the new box on today. Haven't even uploaded a custom tune yet and the car is already starting up on its own. This new MSD 6014 is that much better than the edelbrock timing control module we had on the car. Just need to clean up some wiring and figure out how to connect and upload the tune i have written.