Is the 4th Gen Camaro Collectible yet??? - Page 2 - LS1TECH - Camaro and Firebird Forum Discussion

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Is the 4th Gen Camaro Collectible yet???

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Old 05-15-2018, 04:15 PM
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^ I think you're on the high side with some of your value estimations. Getting over $20k for even a WS6 car [stock] is going to require some special attributes, such as super low mileage (under ~20k), being a more desirable '01/'02 car, being a highly desirable (and also hard to find) color (such as SOM), and/or some combination of the aforementioned. There was a '02 WS6 similar to yours (black, M6, stock, ~50k miles and proper condition) that was listed here last year. The final price was about $15k before the ad disappeared. Actually, I thought that car could have perhaps brought a little more due to being an '02, but it still took some time to sell until the price came down.

Again, asking prices don't necessarily mean sale prices. There can often be a significant disparity there.

I've also been offered thousands more than what my '71 is worth but, like you, I wasn't interested in selling at the time so I shrugged it off. I don't think that offer makes the car actually worth that much, since no deal was struck. Until cash changes hands it's not really a true data point of market value, and even then it could simply be a anomaly unless others have lately jumped to the same level.

In my area, I don't see mid-mileage (40-70k) early WS6 cars selling for $20k; if you want to get to that number it's going to take something more special (as mentioned above). I sometimes see listing prices in the $17-18k range for such cars but they don't seem to disappear quickly, which means they are likely selling for $15-16k, maybe less. That 88k mile car you linked above is definitely dreaming at $15k IMO. Granted, the market might be a bit different in your area. Most folks looking to pay [relative] big money would rather have an '01/'02, and enough of those have been stashed with low mileage that the less desirable earlier cars don't really break the $20k mark unless they are a 30th Anniversary car or ultra low mileage.

Again, I'm sure your car is very nice. Of all people, I definitely understand that intensive care, ideal storage, few owners and highly discriminate use can lead to a car looking much better than one would expect for the mileage (I could post pictures of my 18k mile '98 which would clearly illustrate my understanding of this). However, I don't think $20k or up is a realistic sale price for a stock 44k mile '99 black WS6 M6. Better deals have recently existed and currently exist, and will in the future.
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Old 05-15-2018, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by RPM WS6
I think you're on the high side with some of your value estimations.
My last post with those cars I linked is pretty inarguable, so I don't see who you're disagreeing with?

Originally Posted by RPM WS6
I don't see mid-mileage (40-70k)
Thats double the mileage.
30K and 60K are very different things.

Originally Posted by RPM WS6
However, I don't think $20k or up is a realistic sale price for a stock 44k mile '99 black WS6 M6. Better deals have recently existed and currently exist, and will in the future.
I know what my cars worth, Ive had very good offers. It's a highly desired car.
And your logic is ***-backwards, they get more rare and expensive as time goes on! Cmon man what are you talking about?
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Old 05-15-2018, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
My last post with those cars I linked is pretty inarguable, so I don't see who you're disagreeing with?
Inarguable? LOL. Those are just asking prices, not confirmed sales. Anyway, I already posted another 2002 WS6 with only 10k more miles (60k vs. 50k) than the white one, but with a $7k lower asking price ($14k) to start - and that's even with a more desirable M6 trans. Anyone else looking for a similar car would be able to find similar deals in the near term - especially if they are willing to shop over a large radius. There's no need to give in to the dreamers.

Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
Thats double the mileage.
30K and 60K are very different things.
That wasn't even the range I listed. I said: "In my area, I don't see mid-mileage (40-70k) early WS6 cars selling for $20k; if you want to get to that number it's going to take something more special (as mentioned above). I sometimes see listing prices in the $17-18k range for such cars but they don't seem to disappear quickly, which means they are likely selling for $15-16k, maybe less. "

In other words, whether it's 4x,xxx or 6x,xxx miles, they don't seem to be selling for $20k in my area, and examples within that mileage range can easily be in comparable condition.

Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
I know what my cars worth, Ive had very good offers. It's a highly desired car.
Unsolicited offers are not sales. Those sort of things often don't go through as planned when the time comes to put cash on the table (I know this from first hand experience). But we can simply agree to disagree. If someone pays $20k for a non-anniversary edition, stock 44k mile '99 WS6, it isn't because they had to; there are definitely better deals to be found. Here's one that's pretty comparable to your car, black M6 WS6 in "collector" condition - a '98 but it has only 32k miles vs. your 44k. It only managed to bid up to $13,700:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-Pontiac-Trans-Am-2-door/173258952478?hash=item285709cf1e:g:ueEAAOSwNOJasrY 1&vxp=mtr

2001-02 cars would be more "highly desired", all else being equal, vs. a '99. There weren't many options on an LS1 WS6 car in the first place, so not much difference between one that's a "base" WS6 and one that's "fully loaded." As for color, black is the single most common color (albeit popular), so there are often multiple comparable examples competing in the same market.
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Old 05-15-2018, 09:34 PM
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What you ask and what you sell are clearly different. Having sold a mint ‘00 camaro ss with 30k miles and t56 with a 12bolt for 11k three years ago...I can say with confidence no one is selling higher mileage examples for 15k let alone 20k. I cant tell you how many calls I had on it and people wasting time. I had it listed for 12,500. These cars are only getting older and they are not as good as the newer cars. For pure performance perspective paying 20k for a 4th gen that is stock and more than 10-15k miles when you can get a 2012-2014 camaro SS for not much more seems an easier decision.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:32 AM
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I don’t think 4th gens will ever be considered collectible cars. The demand isn’t there now, and I doubt it ever will be. The only thing thats helped these cars stabilize in value is that they’re excellent value drivers cars, and they have a sort of built in price floor, where at a certain price people just snap them up for their drivetrain for whatever drift car/sandrail/restomod project they have going on. Even looking at cars that have gone up in value or are regarded as collector cars from the 90's, like the GMC Sy/Ty's, Gen 1 Vipers, Cobra R's, E36 M3's, R32 GTR's, MKIV Supra's.. Adjusted for inflation (which is something that everyone seems to ignore for some reason), none of those cars are worth even close to their original MSRP.
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Old 05-16-2018, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by RPM WS6 View Post
Inarguable? LOL. Those are just asking prices, not confirmed sales.
I've kept an eye on cars like that for years and yea, they sell, the turnover is pretty consistent and finding real low mileage to low mileage WS6's or SLP SS's is getting tougher.


Thats not my opinion.
Originally Posted by RPM WS6
There weren't many options on an LS1 WS6 car in the first place, so not much difference between one that's a "base" WS6 and one that's "fully loaded." As for color, black is the single most common color (albeit popular), so there are often multiple comparable examples competing in the same market.
This is not true at all.
My car is LOADED compared to a basic Formula.
The WS6 package alone is a $3100 option.
I also have the power lumbar for both driver, passenger and steering wheel controls, to name a few.

Originally Posted by merim123 View Post
What you ask and what you sell are clearly different. Having sold a mint ‘00 camaro ss with 30k miles and t56 with a 12bolt for 11k three years ago.
Thats a modified car, its not worth anything.
I RARELY see an original WS6 or SLP SS driving around.

Originally Posted by merim123 View Post
For pure performance perspective paying 20k for a 4th gen that is stock and more than 10-15k miles when you can get a 2012-2014 camaro SS for not much more seems an easier decision.
Your missing the point entirely.
I am talking about rare, low mileage collector cars, not some average SS or Z28 driver.
My links prove that, without much anyone can do to argue?
They are different things by a million miles.

Even a low mileage LT1 Firehawk can pull over 15K.
But to answer the performance angle, something we are not talking about at all, a 2012 SS is faster then an Fbody by what, half a second or less? A 4000lb boat with IRS is not the best performance platform and those cars are average in popularity. Love the LS3 though.

Originally Posted by 02DroptopZ View Post
I don’t think 4th gens will ever be considered collectible cars.
Sorry, but this is just laughable.
Thats the most ridiculous thing I've read on this site in a long time.

A 1997 LT4 SS is not a collectible?
A 1999 30th Anniversary Trans-Am is not a collectible? Do you know rare it is to even see one? They have the blue powercoated wheels with white leather interior and are all numbered. Super rare, highly collectible car worth alot.
A 1995 Firehawk is not a collectible?
A 2000 Blackbird or new WS6 with little to no miles is not a collectible?
The 2002 last year Camaro's in red with the special graphics and the Firebirds in Yellow with the special graphics will also be collectible.


Sorry that your driving and modified cars aren't worth anything, thats how they lose value.

They are not worth anything compared to this:

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=477476812&zip=13669 &referrer=%2Fcars-for-sale%2Fsearchresults.xhtml%3Fzip%3D13669%26startYe ar%3D1993%26numRecords%3D100%26sortBy%3DmileageASC %26incremental%3Dall%26engineCodes%3D8CLDR%26first Record%3D0%26endYear%3D2002%26modelCodeList%3DFBIR D%26makeCodeList%3DPONT%26searchRadius%3D500&start Year=1993&numRecords=100&firstRecord=0&endYear=200 2&modelCodeList=FBIRD&makeCodeList=PONT&searchRadi us=500&makeCode1=PONT&modelCode1=FBIRD
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Old 05-16-2018, 07:13 AM
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not for another 40-50 years maybe for nonmolested low mileage garage queens.
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Old 05-16-2018, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by merim123
What you ask and what you sell are clearly different. Having sold a mint ‘00 camaro ss with 30k miles and t56 with a 12bolt for 11k three years ago.

Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
Thats a modified car, its not worth anything.
I RARELY see an original WS6 or SLP SS driving around.
-
You are absolutely right, had I know a 12 bolt rear end would cause the drop in value from 22k to 11k I would have thrown it to the curb. Let us know when you sell yours for 22k.


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Old 05-16-2018, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
A 1997 LT4 SS is not a collectible?
You mean like these cars that sold at Mecum - where suckers routinely overpay through the nose for cars - for $25k and $20k respectively? (Keep in mind, the LT4 package alone was a $17,000 option in 1997 money).
https://www.mecum.com/lots/LN1117-31...let-camaro-ss/
https://www.mecum.com/lots/KC1211-11...camaro-ss-coupe/

Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
A 1999 30th Anniversary Trans-Am is not a collectible? Do you know rare it is to even see one? They have the blue powercoated wheels with white leather interior and are all numbered. Super rare, highly collectible car worth alot.
Like this car that reached a high bid of $12,000?
https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0515-21...tiac-trans-am/

Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
A 1995 Firehawk is not a collectible?
Like this one that sold for $9,500?
https://www.mecum.com/lots/MN0610-93...bird-firehawk/

Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
and the Firebirds in Yellow with the special graphics will also be collectible.
Like this one that sold for $17.5k?
https://www.mecum.com/lots/DA0917-29...ector-edition/

And just for comparisons sake, here’s a 10k mile 2000 Civic Si that sold for almost 23k a few months ago on BaT.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2000-honda-civic-11/

Make no mistake though, I love that guys are preserving these cars and treating them like future investments. I bought mine as a graduation present to myself almost 10 years ago to the day from a guy who rarely ever took it out of the garage. It only had a couple thousand miles on it, it even still had the plastic on the radio and the airbag hangtag on the dash. It makes it so much easier to modify and enjoy when they’re still factory fresh
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:22 PM
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I' shocked any one is arguing about collectability or value for a car. It's so hard to predict future trends it's not funny what' in style to day could be out tomorrow and what's out of style today can be back in style.

My father grew up I the muscle car era and he says all the time he is shocked at some of the values of cars ones no thought twice about like Chevy Belair he said it was equilant to a dodge neone or Chevy cobalt. They sure were not power houses either.

The simple truth is that it all comes down to desirability and supply and demand and no one can predict that.
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:14 PM
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The Mecum auctions listed only re-enforce my point.
Not easy finding a LT4 SS for cheap or T-Top 30th Anniversary T/A with low miles is it? And an auction sale is always a cheaper, riskier purchase, and STILL the prices are high.

People are already putting them in car shows and keeping them as collectibles, to name a few.
And a real low mile WS6 LS1, in mint condition, with all options, 1 owner or few owners, with all paperwork can be worth some coin.

Originally Posted by Adam1203 View Post
The simple truth is that it all comes down to desirability and supply and demand and no one can predict that.
So true!
I've proven my point, folks, have a good one!
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
Thats not my opinion.
And it's not just my opinion that comparable cars can be had for much less money. I've already provided links to prove that above.

Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
This is not true at all.
My car is LOADED compared to a basic Formula.
The WS6 package alone is a $3100 option.
I also have the power lumbar for both driver, passenger and steering wheel controls, to name a few.
Yes, actually it IS true. There were not many options on a WS6, most items were standard at that trim level so most have extremely similar content. Who's comparing it to a basic Formula? Not me. You're just fabricating an argument that didn't even exist. LOL.

I bought a WS6 brand new in July of 2000, so I'm well aware of their optional content and sticker price. Those steering wheel controls were standard for your car. And most WS6s were optioned with those AQ9 seats. Items like the Hurst shifter (RPO BBS), traction control (RPO NW9), and 12-disc CD changer (RPO U1S) are the only optional content that really varies from one WS6 to another (other than the obvious, such as colors and trans type, convertible or T-top).

Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
Thats a modified car, its not worth anything.
Lots of modified cars have sold on this site for as much or more than some otherwise comparable stock examples. All depends on the quality and desirability of the modifications, and also who's in the market at the time. But the idea that they are valueless is absurd.

Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
I am talking about rare, low mileage collector cars, not some average SS or Z28 driver.
My links prove that, without much anyone can do to argue?
No, you're just choosing to ignore the facts that have already been presented. I've provided links to comparable cars that are listed for and/or have sold for much less, even one with 12k less miles than yours. You don't have to like it, but it's there and real. Deals like that are out there for anyone willing to search and shop around.

Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
I've proven my point, folks, have a good one!
Yes, you've proven that you really want to believe that you have a highly desirable collector vehicle, and that some listing prices start off in the clouds.

Beyond that, we'll have to agree to disagree for all the points already made and supported with evidence above.

Have a nice day.
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:43 PM
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Look at c5 vette prices. Best deal going right now.
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Old 05-16-2018, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by RPM WS6 View Post
And it's not just my opinion that comparable cars can be had for much less money. I've already provided links to prove that
You have provided nothing to counter any point I have made about a collectible 4th Gen.
I am linking cars to reputable dealerships who sell cars constantly and private 1 owners, your providing links to auctions, car's with mods and cars with miles.

Originally Posted by RPM WS6 View Post
Have a nice day.
Typical, I've lost and I am out comment.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...7625/overview/

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...1430/overview/

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...5634/overview/

Alot of talking by you, not much fact.
Yeah you can get a deal on a 70K Formula.
But a 10K mile Firehawk?
Dude, your getting pwned in this argument.

Originally Posted by RPM WS6 View Post

No, you're just choosing to ignore the facts that have already been presented.
You have presented ZERO facts to argue any claim I have made.

Originally Posted by RPM WS6 View Post

Lots of modified cars have sold on this site for as much or more than some otherwise comparable stock examples:
Modified cars are worth DICK compared to original cars.
This is common knowledge for any car guy.

But you don't sound like a car guy.
According to you, rare cars become cheaper and easier to find at the years go on.
I am done with you, you've shown us all enough of your 'modified cars with 30k' are the same thing nonsense.
Lol, I am actually enjoying your lack of knowledge, its intriguing.


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Old 05-16-2018, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
Typical, I've lost and I am out comment.
Yikes. Guess you should have reconsidered posting this one then:

Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
I've proven my point, folks, have a good one!
And this...

Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
Dude, your getting pwned in this argument.
...is a bit sophomoric and and some wishful thinking on your part, but perhaps that's your go-to when things aren't unfolding as you've hoped. Sorry if I burst your bubble in areas where you're a bit ill informed or lacking in knowledge, such as optional content or recent value regarding garden variety mid-mileage WS6s. Based on some of your statements, it's clear that you aren't highly experienced with these cars.

Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
I am linking cars to reputable dealerships who sell cars constantly and private 1 owners, your providing links to auctions, car's with mods and cars with miles.
I'm not sure how asking prices are a more definitive source of actual sales value than auction data, but you're certainly welcome to your opinion. That auction car had modifications that were as minor/reversible as yours, with nearly 30% less mileage, and went for thousands less than what you seem to believe cars such as yours are certainly worth.

Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
I am done with you
Please, yes, be done with me. Hopefully this means you won't keep trying to bait me into a different argument regarding examples of much lower mileage and/or greater collector desirability, nor continue to claim I've said things I never said, such as:

Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
According to you, rare cars become cheaper and easier to find at the years go on
That would be an excellent claim to dispute. Except I never made that claim at all (not sure why you keep insisting I did?), so I have no reason to defend it.
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:19 PM
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Would a 97 1LE Firebird Formula that is 99.99% original still has original brake pads on it....Never been tuned up..Runs..drives excellent...Be considered a collectable 4th gen..?
Actually the car realistically like any other car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it...The fact that it is an Ultra rare stripper with no creature comforts can hurt the value..Rare means Unpopular...Unpopular means less $$$$ in the car world...In 1997 only 14 of us bought them then..Why would there be anymore demand for them now...
Not saying they are worthless or not collectable...Just being realistic...

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Old 05-16-2018, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Z28tek View Post
The Mecum auctions listed only re-enforce my point.
...
I've proven my point, folks, have a good one!
I mean, I linked you to several “ultra collectible” 4th gens that got outsold at a collector car auction by a 2001 Honda Civic, including a rare 1 of 108 LT4 30th anniversary SS that had an original sticker price of over $60k, but uh, right on. You seem to be taking this stuff really personal, so I’ll just keep my eyes peeled for your car when it rolls across the block one day. Good luck with it.
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Old 05-17-2018, 06:25 AM
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I think a large part of the devaluation of cars value has less to do with the car and more to do with the generation. The younger people just aren' into them and nodding them
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Old 05-17-2018, 06:58 AM
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Give me a low mile "collectable" ws6 and I'll cut and gut it and make a racecar out of it!
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