180 at idle, 210 driving.
what T-Stat did you use ?.. you have to use the correct ones that are designed for Gen III/IV engines.. Gen I or II ones will not work correctly.
Yes.. Timing should be taken out as needed.. the question is... is timing being taken out from the 48 degree or is it staying at 48 while driving or under load at the 2200+ rpm's ?... if not.. there is something wrong with the tune. As you stated by the tuner (post #17) it should.. just something to check or monitor with a scanner while driving.
As you stated (post #1).. and I stated.. too much timing will make it run hot.
Are you able to capture data ?.. if so... email that data file to the tuner to have him review it.
BC
Yes.. Timing should be taken out as needed.. the question is... is timing being taken out from the 48 degree or is it staying at 48 while driving or under load at the 2200+ rpm's ?... if not.. there is something wrong with the tune. As you stated by the tuner (post #17) it should.. just something to check or monitor with a scanner while driving.
As you stated (post #1).. and I stated.. too much timing will make it run hot.
Are you able to capture data ?.. if so... email that data file to the tuner to have him review it.
BC
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 276
Likes: 1
From: Mid Mo via Lancs. England
BC,
Used a thermostat listed for a Escalade, as that is the water pump I had to use to clear the LS6 intake with no modifications. Did the same thing with both thermostats though.
The timing indeed does back off to high teens/low twenties under a load, so it is losing a lot of advance under a load which is a good thing.
No way of capturing data that I know of, although I am doubting the tune at this point.
Yesterday I did some little experiments....
At 70MPH, in overdrive the temp is just under 210 degree's.
At 70MPH in 3rd gear, it got to 222 degrees, then I shifted back into overdrive.
So it isnt load related, as much as RPM related.
The radiator is a double pass 2 row from FSR. Is it possible that the coolant is going through the radiator TOO fast? Or an airflow issue? Or a weak water pump?
Thanks all
Martin
Used a thermostat listed for a Escalade, as that is the water pump I had to use to clear the LS6 intake with no modifications. Did the same thing with both thermostats though.
The timing indeed does back off to high teens/low twenties under a load, so it is losing a lot of advance under a load which is a good thing.
No way of capturing data that I know of, although I am doubting the tune at this point.
Yesterday I did some little experiments....
At 70MPH, in overdrive the temp is just under 210 degree's.
At 70MPH in 3rd gear, it got to 222 degrees, then I shifted back into overdrive.
So it isnt load related, as much as RPM related.
The radiator is a double pass 2 row from FSR. Is it possible that the coolant is going through the radiator TOO fast? Or an airflow issue? Or a weak water pump?
Thanks all
Martin
If it's rpm related, I would look into lower hose being sucked shut or there being a restriction somewhere else in the line.
Post up some pictures of your radiator, hoses, water pump setup, heater hoses and how the air gets through it all.
Post up some pictures of your radiator, hoses, water pump setup, heater hoses and how the air gets through it all.
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 276
Likes: 1
From: Mid Mo via Lancs. England
Will do. Have some running around this morning, then will get some pics and post them up.
Sorry for my delayed replies, had a little fab work yesterday involving some 3/4" thick, 4x4 angle iron, that took a "while" to cut...
Martin
Sorry for my delayed replies, had a little fab work yesterday involving some 3/4" thick, 4x4 angle iron, that took a "while" to cut...
Martin
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 276
Likes: 1
From: Mid Mo via Lancs. England
sorry for the delay. Some parts came in for my wife's Range Rover and she wanted it back! So I sorted that out then started to gather parts for a "garage sale" that are left over from my 3yr build...
Will try to snap some pictures tomorrow morning and post them up for the folks with the knowledge to look over.
Martin
Will try to snap some pictures tomorrow morning and post them up for the folks with the knowledge to look over.
Martin
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 276
Likes: 1
From: Mid Mo via Lancs. England
Here are some pictures, please let me know if they make sense or not. The upper and lower rad hoses are not kinked in any way. The extra hose wrapped is wrapped around the lower hose to protect it from rubbing on the frame.
No room between the rad and condenser for any type of air dam etc.
Martin
No room between the rad and condenser for any type of air dam etc.
Martin
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 276
Likes: 1
From: Mid Mo via Lancs. England
Going to go fire it up and get to operating temp. Then hold it at a higher idle to see if any hoses collapse etc.
Hopefully the transmission doesn't get too mad at me..although the way it's shifting it wouldn't break my heart. I did notice on a short drive that when over 3k rpm's (when the POS transmission decides to shift), there is a vibration.
Martin
Hopefully the transmission doesn't get too mad at me..although the way it's shifting it wouldn't break my heart. I did notice on a short drive that when over 3k rpm's (when the POS transmission decides to shift), there is a vibration.
Martin
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 276
Likes: 1
From: Mid Mo via Lancs. England
Some numbers. Cant see any hoses collapsing etc.
Engine temp reading 216, idle set at @2300 rpm's
Top hose connection on radiator 190, lower hose connector 160.
Thermostat housing is 197.
Water pump upper outlet is 207
Exhaust manifold temps in bank order (1.3.5.7)
600,640,700,520 fluctuating..
(2,4,6,8)
550,560,590,650
Unplug No 7 injector, rpm's drop.
Cylinder head temp, between cyl's 1 and 3, then 5 and 7
285 and 272
Between 2 and4, then 6 and 8
265 and 270
Top row of radiator is 201. Bottom row is 186. Both on passenger side where the necks are.
Looks like there is only a @10 degree difference between the upper outlet on the water pump, to the lower inlet on the thermostat housing. Cylinder exhaust manifold temps are also not good IMO.
Turning on the ac drops rpm's by @300, although there is no ac request wire to the ecm
Just noticed the radiator cap is weeping. This cap is @3 months old and a genuine Stant 26-32 psi model. Rover header tank is @30 psi, so had to get a higher than standard radiator cap.
Thoughts??
Engine temp reading 216, idle set at @2300 rpm's
Top hose connection on radiator 190, lower hose connector 160.
Thermostat housing is 197.
Water pump upper outlet is 207
Exhaust manifold temps in bank order (1.3.5.7)
600,640,700,520 fluctuating..
(2,4,6,8)
550,560,590,650
Unplug No 7 injector, rpm's drop.
Cylinder head temp, between cyl's 1 and 3, then 5 and 7
285 and 272
Between 2 and4, then 6 and 8
265 and 270
Top row of radiator is 201. Bottom row is 186. Both on passenger side where the necks are.
Looks like there is only a @10 degree difference between the upper outlet on the water pump, to the lower inlet on the thermostat housing. Cylinder exhaust manifold temps are also not good IMO.
Turning on the ac drops rpm's by @300, although there is no ac request wire to the ecm
Just noticed the radiator cap is weeping. This cap is @3 months old and a genuine Stant 26-32 psi model. Rover header tank is @30 psi, so had to get a higher than standard radiator cap.
Thoughts??
Last edited by leftlanetruckin; Apr 24, 2015 at 02:23 PM.
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Launching!
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 276
Likes: 1
From: Mid Mo via Lancs. England
Replaced the AC compressor, as when I turned it on to put a load on the engine, it started sparking etc.....Ooops.
Put a spare on that has a very free spinning pulley, and the temp went to 214, then I turned the fan on. Dropped to 207 and would go no lower. So not the AC pulley.
Going to pull the torque converter bolts, as the trans temp got to jut over 180 at the pan where the Autometer sender unit is today when testing. Between that and shifting high (@3k rpms's) and very firm, looking like it is not the best. Bought used, along with the torque converter, so history unknown.
Will do the test again after the trans and torque converter are out of the equation and report back. In my mind, at an ambient temp of @60 degrees, the Taurus electric fan should be able to cycle on and off at higher RPM's, as it does at idle RPM's.
Martin
Put a spare on that has a very free spinning pulley, and the temp went to 214, then I turned the fan on. Dropped to 207 and would go no lower. So not the AC pulley.
Going to pull the torque converter bolts, as the trans temp got to jut over 180 at the pan where the Autometer sender unit is today when testing. Between that and shifting high (@3k rpms's) and very firm, looking like it is not the best. Bought used, along with the torque converter, so history unknown.
Will do the test again after the trans and torque converter are out of the equation and report back. In my mind, at an ambient temp of @60 degrees, the Taurus electric fan should be able to cycle on and off at higher RPM's, as it does at idle RPM's.
Martin
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 276
Likes: 1
From: Mid Mo via Lancs. England
After removing the torque converter bolts, it did run a little cooler initially. I let it get to 220, and then kicked the fan on. It brought it down to 207 and that was as low as it got.
Within @20 seconds, top hose is very hard too, then gets softer within @30 seconds of shut off.
So, I am thinking two issues, one trans had a shift kit of some sort in it, two a head gasket/cylinder issue. After we let it sit, started it up and gave it some 4k rpm gas pedal, and got blue smoke from the exhaust......
Also the small vibration you feel over 3k rpms when driving it is still there, all be it very slightly.
Martin
Within @20 seconds, top hose is very hard too, then gets softer within @30 seconds of shut off.
So, I am thinking two issues, one trans had a shift kit of some sort in it, two a head gasket/cylinder issue. After we let it sit, started it up and gave it some 4k rpm gas pedal, and got blue smoke from the exhaust......
Also the small vibration you feel over 3k rpms when driving it is still there, all be it very slightly.
Martin
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 276
Likes: 1
From: Mid Mo via Lancs. England
Front row, left to right, cylinders 1,3,5,7. Back row left to right, 2.4,6,8.
Something isnt happy...Especially considering the lower manifold temperature on No 7 exhaust manifold...
Something isnt happy...Especially considering the lower manifold temperature on No 7 exhaust manifold...
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 276
Likes: 1
From: Mid Mo via Lancs. England
Compression on 5 and 7, 180 and 185 psi warm.
Leakdown , at 100psi input
1,3,5,7 = 86,90,98,91 psi
2,4,6,8 - 89,92,98,88 psi
Rough and ready leakdown with valve covers on, feeling for air being pumped out of the hose...all I had time for.
Only air was through the oil filler neck, no bubbles in coolant.
I almost wish it HAD blown bubbles, at least it would have pointed a finger.
Martin
Leakdown , at 100psi input
1,3,5,7 = 86,90,98,91 psi
2,4,6,8 - 89,92,98,88 psi
Rough and ready leakdown with valve covers on, feeling for air being pumped out of the hose...all I had time for.
Only air was through the oil filler neck, no bubbles in coolant.
I almost wish it HAD blown bubbles, at least it would have pointed a finger.
Martin
Are you running the Trans cooler line through the Radiator or a standalone cooler.
I know when I ran it into the Radiator.. my engine temp was higher.. I then bypassed it to a stand alone cooler and my engine temp was much lower.
BC
I know when I ran it into the Radiator.. my engine temp was higher.. I then bypassed it to a stand alone cooler and my engine temp was much lower.
BC
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 276
Likes: 1
From: Mid Mo via Lancs. England
Thanks
Martin
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 276
Likes: 1
From: Mid Mo via Lancs. England
Thinking valve seals on the fouled plug, injectors all test out OK when unplugging one at a time, it sounds the same at every injector. Crude I know but......
There was some oil being burned at the tailpipe when I fired it back up after the leakdown etc tests.
As far as cooling, possible it is flowing through the double pass radiator TOO fast? Think I will try a restrictor in the lower hose....worth a shot to slow teh coolant down while sat still>
Martin
There was some oil being burned at the tailpipe when I fired it back up after the leakdown etc tests.
As far as cooling, possible it is flowing through the double pass radiator TOO fast? Think I will try a restrictor in the lower hose....worth a shot to slow teh coolant down while sat still>
Martin
I can't understand why it would build pressure in the coolant system so fast, sounds like compression leaking into coolant system, which would cause this overheating issue.
Stupid questions but is the back side of the belt on the water pump pulley? Also, is there for sure a divider in the radiator forcing it to "dual pass"?
Can you start it up from cold with the radiator cap removed and watch the coolant start to circulate when it gets up to 195-197?
I can't imagine it flowing too fast through the radiator.
Stupid questions but is the back side of the belt on the water pump pulley? Also, is there for sure a divider in the radiator forcing it to "dual pass"?
Can you start it up from cold with the radiator cap removed and watch the coolant start to circulate when it gets up to 195-197?
I can't imagine it flowing too fast through the radiator.
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 276
Likes: 1
From: Mid Mo via Lancs. England
I can't understand why it would build pressure in the coolant system so fast, sounds like compression leaking into coolant system, which would cause this overheating issue.
Leakdown test came out excellent though, with the only feedback of air being out of the oil filler neck
Stupid questions but is the back side of the belt on the water pump pulley? Also, is there for sure a divider in the radiator forcing it to "dual pass"?
You wont believe how many times I have Googled that...and yes the flat side of the belt is on the water pump pulley, reverse rotation. I can see a horizontal divider on the neck side of the radiator inside
Can you start it up from cold with the radiator cap removed and watch the coolant start to circulate when it gets up to 195-197?
Header tank cap yes, although not to that temp.
I can't imagine it flowing too fast through the radiator.
Leakdown test came out excellent though, with the only feedback of air being out of the oil filler neck
Stupid questions but is the back side of the belt on the water pump pulley? Also, is there for sure a divider in the radiator forcing it to "dual pass"?
You wont believe how many times I have Googled that...and yes the flat side of the belt is on the water pump pulley, reverse rotation. I can see a horizontal divider on the neck side of the radiator inside
Can you start it up from cold with the radiator cap removed and watch the coolant start to circulate when it gets up to 195-197?
Header tank cap yes, although not to that temp.
I can't imagine it flowing too fast through the radiator.
I agree 100% about it making sense to have a bad HG, but tests say otherwise. I almost wished for a bad leak down reading, and bubbling coolant, just so I knew what it was....lol
This afternoon, after some other jobs, I put a support slightly thinner than the hose ID, in the lower hose to make sure it doesn't collapse, and thinned out the coolant/water mixture a bit after doing some reading. So far, at @2500rpms', the fan cycled on and off. Willl let it cool, top it off, and see how it does on a drive tomorrow if not tonight.
You said you installed a 160 temp T stat and in another post you said you had a caddy T state in there.
Have you verified the T stat is a 160* temp T stat??? If its a stock replacement caddy T-stat most likely its a 190*
Have you verified the T stat is a 160* temp T stat??? If its a stock replacement caddy T-stat most likely its a 190*
Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 276
Likes: 1
From: Mid Mo via Lancs. England
Martin
The water pump is for a 6.0 Escalade, so a LSx water pump, but with a neck that works with truck style front accesories AND the LS6 intake with no mods needed. Thermostat was ordered for the same vehicle as the water pump, so they should match up perfectly yes. The thermostat had 160 on it, so am ASSuming it is right
Martin
Martin
I don't think the temps are out of line for that engine. In a normal system the fans shut off at a certain speed. Being a swap, You have to have the correct amount of airflow past the radiator to keep it cool. There is a reason why GM went to a 34 in core on they started using E-fans in 05 trucks.
Along with air flow across the radiator, the air has to go some where.
I am not overly familiar with the Vehicle you swapped it into.