LS Fox body project
07-27-2018, 09:23 AM
#21
I suppose anything is possible, but I've been involved with SVOs since the early 90's and have never seen one from the factory with anything other than a 7.5. The 7.5's in the SVO had longer axles ( I believe due to the disc brakes) and when I put the TC rear in my SVO, I had to use the original SVO axles.
I'm in the process of transplanting an LS2 in my SVO, and have a Maximum Motorsport MMK-1 K member. For fitment I bought the Holley 302-3 oil pan, the Hooker/Holley LT headers, and modded some SN-9/LS swap motor mounts. Since then, Holley has introduced their own mounts as part of their package. I believe that their combo will also work with a stock Ford K.
Here is a post from a Holley R&D guy who uses the screen name "Toddoky" . https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversio...ew-thread.html Lots of good info and pics there.
I'm in the process of transplanting an LS2 in my SVO, and have a Maximum Motorsport MMK-1 K member. For fitment I bought the Holley 302-3 oil pan, the Hooker/Holley LT headers, and modded some SN-9/LS swap motor mounts. Since then, Holley has introduced their own mounts as part of their package. I believe that their combo will also work with a stock Ford K.
Here is a post from a Holley R&D guy who uses the screen name "Toddoky" . https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversio...ew-thread.html Lots of good info and pics there.
07-27-2018, 09:26 AM
#22
I've never pulled an engine and tranny so had a hard time imagining how it could be done without your explanation. I believed you could mate either side to the other from underneath the car. How do you keep the oil from getting all over your floor when you have it angling in and out so many times? Did you fashion a plug with plywood or use some other method?
07-27-2018, 09:34 AM
#23
The Hooker Fox Body Mustang LS swap system components are indeed compatible with the stock K-member as long as you use the specific engine mounting brackets for the stock K-member and the K-member is from a 1984-95 model year car. The system components are also compatible with the Maximum Motorsports MMKM-1, AJE and Team Z K-members and 8 or 9 different GM and Tremec transmissions.
07-27-2018, 10:52 AM
#24
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@rtagg
I was hoping to find someone that was doing the same thing I'm planning so you're definitely a blessing. It's all about synergy! Check out what I was talking about concerning the SVO rear in this link.
I am relatively inexperienced but I have wrenched my own car for a few years and would know to drain a system before moving it. I suppose I should have said residual oil all over the floor to make my point clearer. I appreciate you going 60-0 in your assessment of my knowledge in order to accomodate me but perhaps in the future you could try scrubbing off some speed first 
Seriously, I consider having the ear of a former circuit racer a privilige but I'm not a complete dumbass. Passenger side battery in the back should be de-riguer for anyone seeking track time so that's good advice but how do you land on the PHB vs. Watts debate? Are sway bars the only things you use to tune your handling? I'm planning on making similar power with a car that weighs about as much, is a sticky 225/50-16 enough tire? Is the Trak-Loc rear a clutch type limited slip or something different? Wouldn't a torsen T2 be superior?
@Toddoky
Thanks for the heads up. I'll be studying up on these offerings and will be sure to have more questions. It never ends does it.
I was hoping to find someone that was doing the same thing I'm planning so you're definitely a blessing. It's all about synergy! Check out what I was talking about concerning the SVO rear in this link.
Originally Posted by Michael Yount
LOL - First thing you do before pulling the engine is----uh-----drain all the fluids.
Seriously, I consider having the ear of a former circuit racer a privilige but I'm not a complete dumbass. Passenger side battery in the back should be de-riguer for anyone seeking track time so that's good advice but how do you land on the PHB vs. Watts debate? Are sway bars the only things you use to tune your handling? I'm planning on making similar power with a car that weighs about as much, is a sticky 225/50-16 enough tire? Is the Trak-Loc rear a clutch type limited slip or something different? Wouldn't a torsen T2 be superior?
@Toddoky
Thanks for the heads up. I'll be studying up on these offerings and will be sure to have more questions. It never ends does it.
Last edited by yldouright; 07-27-2018 at 11:03 AM.
07-27-2018, 01:15 PM
#25
I checked out the link, and the only thing I saw was that the Lincoln MK VII axle shafts were used in the SVO (again, probably because they used the Lincoln rear disc brakes) but AFIK, they never put 8.8 diffs in the SVO from the factory.
If I can answer any swap questions for you, let me know.
If I can answer any swap questions for you, let me know.
07-27-2018, 01:23 PM
#26
It’s impossible to get all the fluid out - put your liquid spill granuals on it and sweep it up. I would talk to folks at Maximum Motorsports for your suspension needs - they can fix you up from mild to wild - they know what they're doing. My brother had an 86 using their stuff - coilovers front, castor/camber plates, 4 cyl sway bar (their recommendation with his setup/spring rates), subframe connectors, Panhard bar with the rear torque arm set up. It was pretty stout.
Mine’s adjustable perches, Eibach springs, Koni Sports, roll center correctors up front, cast/camb plates, strut tower bar, reinforced rear lower arms, adjustable Panhard and adj upper torque arms, poly bushes everywhere and 28mm/22mm bars. Stock rear discs; 12" rotors off of a C70 Volvo coupe and billet aluminum calipers from Wilwood. Don't forget -- none of this does much of anything unless two critically important things are addressed properly. One is tires (with appropriately sized wheels -- as light a combo as you can afford) and the second is tightening the nut behind the wheel. If you haven't been to a few driving schools and raced a bit --- then the car (even stock) will be WAY more competent than you are.
Mine’s adjustable perches, Eibach springs, Koni Sports, roll center correctors up front, cast/camb plates, strut tower bar, reinforced rear lower arms, adjustable Panhard and adj upper torque arms, poly bushes everywhere and 28mm/22mm bars. Stock rear discs; 12" rotors off of a C70 Volvo coupe and billet aluminum calipers from Wilwood. Don't forget -- none of this does much of anything unless two critically important things are addressed properly. One is tires (with appropriately sized wheels -- as light a combo as you can afford) and the second is tightening the nut behind the wheel. If you haven't been to a few driving schools and raced a bit --- then the car (even stock) will be WAY more competent than you are.
Last edited by Michael Yount; 07-27-2018 at 01:34 PM.
07-27-2018, 04:31 PM
#27
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@rtagg
From the following snippet:
I concluded the 85-86 SVO also had an 8.8" ring but your report indicates they only had the axle shafts in common. I don't suppose a prior owner could have switched out the rear. Is it possible the SVO pumpkin had a specially made roundish housing that looked like a 7.5" or that an 8.8" ring somehow fits the SVO housing? Again, I'm not doubting for the sake of doubt, just trying to figure things out
From the following snippet:
87-92 Lincoln Mark VII 8.8 axles are 30.5" (1.25" longer) per side, meaning total width is 2.5" wider.
brakes are 10.5" 5 lug vented rotors
gearing is normally 3.27 or 3.08
SVO and 87-93 Saleen shared these axle shafts.
brakes are 10.5" 5 lug vented rotors
gearing is normally 3.27 or 3.08
SVO and 87-93 Saleen shared these axle shafts.
07-27-2018, 04:45 PM
#28
I think a lot of people who drove their SVOs hard ended up swapping out the 7.5 for the 8.8, since the 7.5's broke so easily if you turned the boost up, and the 8.8's were pretty easy to find. No, an 8.8 diff won't go into a 7.5 housing, and there was nothing special about the SVO 7.5 housing. One of the parameters the SVO project head had to follow was that the car had to be built from off the shelf parts.
07-28-2018, 08:57 AM
#29
@G Atsma
+1. I would have said that if you hadn't said it first. I don't get the reference, what does Burbank/Laugh-In have to do with that car?
@Michael Yount
Noted, even the aluminum blocks come in at 478lbs. complete. Beautiful work! Who needs an M5 when you have that ride The chin spoiler up front makes the look of your car, how do I get one? All the notches I've seen come with a 7.5" ring, why add the install headache and ~40lbs. of an 8.8"? I was planning on an LC9 and a snail for my build, did you use the stock mount or get an aftermarket "K-member" to seat it? I have so many additional questions but I don't want to overwhelm you in one post.
@Stampede4ever
Thanks. Just to clarify, are you saying ALL 28 splines will fit ANY manufacturer ring gear differential, including torsens or that Ford 7.5" and 8.8" house the same axles? Has anyone done a compatilbilty list of axles and rears? I think I want a T2-R diff on my build but only if it isn't too much trouble.
+1. I would have said that if you hadn't said it first. I don't get the reference, what does Burbank/Laugh-In have to do with that car?
@Michael Yount
Noted, even the aluminum blocks come in at 478lbs. complete. Beautiful work! Who needs an M5 when you have that ride
The chin spoiler up front makes the look of your car, how do I get one? All the notches I've seen come with a 7.5" ring, why add the install headache and ~40lbs. of an 8.8"? I was planning on an LC9 and a snail for my build, did you use the stock mount or get an aftermarket "K-member" to seat it? I have so many additional questions but I don't want to overwhelm you in one post. @Stampede4ever
Thanks. Just to clarify, are you saying ALL 28 splines will fit ANY manufacturer ring gear differential, including torsens or that Ford 7.5" and 8.8" house the same axles? Has anyone done a compatilbilty list of axles and rears? I think I want a T2-R diff on my build but only if it isn't too much trouble.
Stampede.
07-28-2018, 09:57 AM
#30
TECH Senior Member
Nothing to do with the car. Refers to the "Farkle Family" skits on Laugh-In. Ferd Burfel would say "FIIINE lookin' family of Farkles you got there Fred". Of course the joke there was ALL the kids looked like Ferd…...
07-28-2018, 10:06 AM
#31
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@G Atsma
LOL, I remember that!
@Michael Yount
Can your PHB pivot from either side of the axle (reversible mount)? I've rented track time intermmitantly three times a year for most of my adult life and I know the basics of body dynamics. In most cases, any stock Fox or LX would be a bottleneck for me. I haven't driven the SVO but I've been told the sloppy rear and body flex on that car will also limit my time around a track. I know the unsprung weight and tire patch are inseparable from the other suspension decisions but would that prevent you from giving us a general impression of how much tire would be enough for ~400whp and ~3200lbs. GVWR?
@rtagg
Thanks for the link above, I've been studying intently even though there are too many "are we there yet" posts in that thread, LOL. Is your project complete? I noted your impatience and didn't yet see your conclusion.
LOL, I remember that!
@Michael Yount
Can your PHB pivot from either side of the axle (reversible mount)? I've rented track time intermmitantly three times a year for most of my adult life and I know the basics of body dynamics. In most cases, any stock Fox or LX would be a bottleneck for me. I haven't driven the SVO but I've been told the sloppy rear and body flex on that car will also limit my time around a track. I know the unsprung weight and tire patch are inseparable from the other suspension decisions but would that prevent you from giving us a general impression of how much tire would be enough for ~400whp and ~3200lbs. GVWR?
@rtagg
Thanks for the link above, I've been studying intently even though there are too many "are we there yet" posts in that thread, LOL. Is your project complete? I noted your impatience and didn't yet see your conclusion.
07-28-2018, 07:22 PM
#32
Not sure I understand the 'reversible' question -- since it connects rear axle to body and locates the axle relative the body laterally -- any 'reversible' set up would have to have mounting points on the axle and the body on both sides. That would take up a bunch of real estate on any car. My car came from the factory with a Panhard rod. I use the stock mount on the body (driver's side) and the stock Volvo mount that's been welded to the Ford 8.8" rearend in the Volvo/OEM location. The rod itself is adjustable for length. It is not reversible.
As I said - contact the folks at Maximum Motorsports and begin your discussion about suspension and dynamics there. You can get plenty of tire under the front and back of a fox body for what you're talking about. I think I mentioned sub-frame connectors earlier - they are a must. Even better would be a cage -- but I never recommend one in a street car. Too easy to hit an un-helmeted head on one. You can set the fox body up to handle quite well.
As I said - contact the folks at Maximum Motorsports and begin your discussion about suspension and dynamics there. You can get plenty of tire under the front and back of a fox body for what you're talking about. I think I mentioned sub-frame connectors earlier - they are a must. Even better would be a cage -- but I never recommend one in a street car. Too easy to hit an un-helmeted head on one. You can set the fox body up to handle quite well.
07-29-2018, 07:15 AM
#33
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@Michael Yount
Thanks for your input. It will be a street car too so no roll cage, just underframe support. I think you've understood me, a reversible mount would have symmetrical mountings so the PHB can be optimized for any road course (biased for right or left turning). The MM PHB is NOT reversible because its design would interfere with the exhaust if mounted the 'wrong' way. As I understand it, the PHB will have a different roll center on left and right turns as it raises and lowers the rear. Does your experience corroborate this understanding? Why would two additional mounts take up a bunch of real estate, is there any more to it than that? Sub-Frame connectors are on my list, do you think the longer ones are worth the extra cost and weight? Yes, the fox wheel wells can fit 255's and 8" wheels without fender flares but why add roll resistance and unsprung weight if you can avoid it? That's why I asked your opinion on the adequacy of VR 225/50-16's for an 8lb/hp car weighing ~3300lbs.
@rtagg
I saw the link where you sold off your headers and mounts so I'll assume you got your complete now. A truck LS has taller heads than those in the F and Y body cars, if you used a truck motor, did you have any hood clearance issues?
Thanks for your input. It will be a street car too so no roll cage, just underframe support. I think you've understood me, a reversible mount would have symmetrical mountings so the PHB can be optimized for any road course (biased for right or left turning). The MM PHB is NOT reversible because its design would interfere with the exhaust if mounted the 'wrong' way. As I understand it, the PHB will have a different roll center on left and right turns as it raises and lowers the rear. Does your experience corroborate this understanding? Why would two additional mounts take up a bunch of real estate, is there any more to it than that? Sub-Frame connectors are on my list, do you think the longer ones are worth the extra cost and weight? Yes, the fox wheel wells can fit 255's and 8" wheels without fender flares but why add roll resistance and unsprung weight if you can avoid it? That's why I asked your opinion on the adequacy of VR 225/50-16's for an 8lb/hp car weighing ~3300lbs.
@rtagg
I saw the link where you sold off your headers and mounts so I'll assume you got your complete now. A truck LS has taller heads than those in the F and Y body cars, if you used a truck motor, did you have any hood clearance issues?
Last edited by yldouright; 07-29-2018 at 07:27 AM.
07-29-2018, 10:05 AM
#36
No, I'm using an LS2 from a '07 Corvette. The headers I sold were Speed Engineering LTs that wouldn't fit with the MMK-1 K memeber. Same thing with the motor mounts I sold off, they were designed for one of the different aftermarket Ks, and didn't fit the way I wanted, so I bought the Hooker headers and modified some SN-95 motor mounts with some spacer blocks. All in all it was a much cleaner fit. AFIK, a truck intake won't clear a stock Fox hood, but don't quote me on it.
07-29-2018, 11:12 AM
#37
If you're truly building a street car - I can't imagine that the ability to reverse the Panhard is a big deal. Fact is, having a Panhard at all is a huge step forward in laterally locating the axle in a Fox body compared to the stock angled upper control arms. What did MM say when you asked them about a reversible Panhard? You could go Watts -- but that really takes up room. 8" wheel isn't wide enough for 255 tires....
I can't answer your question about how much tire is enough. How hard do you want it to corner? That will direct you towards your tire size choice. Compound equally, if not more, important. If you have a suspension and unibody cable of really planting the tire, you can get an awful lot of cornering force out of sticky 225's on 3300 lbs. My gut tells me you'll want 245-255 on 9-10" wheels.
Late add - my Cayman S was capable of right at 1G with 235/265 sport Pilots. About 3k lbs
I can't answer your question about how much tire is enough. How hard do you want it to corner? That will direct you towards your tire size choice. Compound equally, if not more, important. If you have a suspension and unibody cable of really planting the tire, you can get an awful lot of cornering force out of sticky 225's on 3300 lbs. My gut tells me you'll want 245-255 on 9-10" wheels.
Late add - my Cayman S was capable of right at 1G with 235/265 sport Pilots. About 3k lbs
Last edited by Michael Yount; 07-29-2018 at 11:44 AM.
07-29-2018, 12:31 PM
#38
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@Michael Yount
A great answer satisfies a question and that was exemplary. Thanks. The Watts solves the problem (if it really is one) of the 0.25" sagitta but it shares the same change in roll center of the PHB unless you mount it below the axle which is too low for street. I just discovered the Grand Marquis and Crown Vic of that era had a Watts ahead of the axle. I wonder if that unit will fit a fox? (Hey, @rtagg, any info on this?) I was planning on weekend racing club events and possibly some SVRA so if I can get an edge with a reversible PHB, why not look for one with that feature? Those were great numbers on the Cayman, did you use the same width wheels front and rear even though the tires were wider in the back? I guess a wider wheel will minimize the sidewall deflection on hard cornering but I've been reading more and more people saying they have gotten use to that 'squishiness' and they say a tire that stands slightly proud breaks more controllably. Has your experience been different?
@rtagg
I sent an email to MM to ask about the clearance with a stock hood and truck intake and will report what they say. When you pulled out your SVO, did you happen to notice how much space was under the intercooler? Was there enough to mount a duct?
A great answer satisfies a question and that was exemplary. Thanks. The Watts solves the problem (if it really is one) of the 0.25" sagitta but it shares the same change in roll center of the PHB unless you mount it below the axle which is too low for street. I just discovered the Grand Marquis and Crown Vic of that era had a Watts ahead of the axle. I wonder if that unit will fit a fox? (Hey, @rtagg, any info on this?
) I was planning on weekend racing club events and possibly some SVRA so if I can get an edge with a reversible PHB, why not look for one with that feature? Those were great numbers on the Cayman, did you use the same width wheels front and rear even though the tires were wider in the back? I guess a wider wheel will minimize the sidewall deflection on hard cornering but I've been reading more and more people saying they have gotten use to that 'squishiness' and they say a tire that stands slightly proud breaks more controllably. Has your experience been different?@rtagg
I sent an email to MM to ask about the clearance with a stock hood and truck intake and will report what they say. When you pulled out your SVO, did you happen to notice how much space was under the intercooler? Was there enough to mount a duct?
07-29-2018, 01:05 PM
#39
Good rule of thumb to get the most out of the tire is the wheel no less than 1” to 1.5” narrower than the section width of the tire. So - 245/25.4 = 9.64” less 1”-1.5” .... 8.5” or 9” wheel. If I recall correctly the Cayman had 9’s on the front and 10 or 10.5” on the rear. I would ignore counsel about a too-narrow wheel resulting in more manageable breakaway characterisitcs.
Vic/Marquis info seems wrong to me; can’t imagine why Ford would go Watts on the land barges when they wouldn’t even go Panhard on the Stang; how would you even use a Watts in front of a solid axke?
Edit - had to look it up -- memory failed me (old = happens all the time) ; 2010 Cayman S -- frt 235/40/18 on 8" wheel; rear - 265/35/18 on 9" wheel.
Vic/Marquis info seems wrong to me; can’t imagine why Ford would go Watts on the land barges when they wouldn’t even go Panhard on the Stang; how would you even use a Watts in front of a solid axke?
Edit - had to look it up -- memory failed me (old = happens all the time) ; 2010 Cayman S -- frt 235/40/18 on 8" wheel; rear - 265/35/18 on 9" wheel.
Last edited by Michael Yount; 07-29-2018 at 05:49 PM.
