Thinking About Ditching EFI
10-14-2019, 09:30 PM
#21
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (7)
This...I love to poke around on that site...but, if I went over there and posted about my cool fuel injected "LS" powered wagon, they would kick my *** and run me off.
But to the OP. I think you already have your answer...
10-15-2019, 12:51 AM
#23
It's called sarcasm, we are well trained with it in the military. Also trained to **** every feeling you have, at any time, any where. Cute attempt at an insult, you want to go down this road, hero?
This is a battle of wit, which you clearly are unarmed for.
You already seem to be offended at the light banter.. I haven't even started yet. You should learn to swap some thicker skin.
I'd hate to see the straight edge non-vulgar no fun garage you have.. are people allowed to drink stuff besides water?
This is a battle of wit, which you clearly are unarmed for.
You already seem to be offended at the light banter.. I haven't even started yet. You should learn to swap some thicker skin.
I'd hate to see the straight edge non-vulgar no fun garage you have.. are people allowed to drink stuff besides water?
WOOOOOOW! What a tough guy! Impressive sir. How does all of your toughness even fit on the internet!?!?!?!? They must have expanded the net just so your bulging, heaving, veiny, typing fingers can unleash your never before seen toughness.
Lol. Being an Internet tough guy and then explaining your as of yet only partially exposed tough skills as being part of your military training. LMAO. You genuinely made me smile. Smiling right now still. Any other military skills us weaklings should be wary of causing you to unleash. Like, what level douchebag training are you at now? How hard was "being a dick to people you'll never meet" bootcamp? I heard it can be brutal.
I'm curious what other military members think about your comments? Anyone?
10-15-2019, 07:05 AM
#24
WOOOOOOW! What a tough guy! Impressive sir. How does all of your toughness even fit on the internet!?!?!?!? They must have expanded the net just so your bulging, heaving, veiny, typing fingers can unleash your never before seen toughness.
Lol. Being an Internet tough guy and then explaining your as of yet only partially exposed tough skills as being part of your military training. LMAO. You genuinely made me smile. Smiling right now still. Any other military skills us weaklings should be wary of causing you to unleash. Like, what level douchebag training are you at now? How hard was "being a dick to people you'll never meet" bootcamp? I heard it can be brutal.
I'm curious what other military members think about your comments? Anyone?
10-21-2019, 10:48 PM
#25
Launching!
Thread Starter
10-21-2019, 10:52 PM
#26
Launching!
Thread Starter
If it works for you, go for it.
The challenge with EFI has always been understanding the software and the ECU design/concepts, what everything does. Systems like the new Terminator X bring in a much easier to use interface with a very good price point. I hated messing with HP tuners, and find the Holley setup much better for me. I would never go back to a factory ECU for my setups (swaps into older cars that don't need any other info from the ECU).
If you have an LS motor with typical OEM parts, it might be more expensive to go with a carb vs a base Terminator X setup. Intake, Carb, Spark box, carb tuning parts, etc. Cheaper if you already have carb parts.
IMO, tuning is the same, you have to figure out the same things whether its EFI or Carb. You need to tune Idle, cruise, WOT, pedal transitions, spark curves, etc. In the end, you have to understand what the car needs, and how to set it up.
With a carb, you test it, and change some parts (so you need a stock of assorted parts). And you need to figure out how you are getting data. Factoring in a wideband is more money. With a good EFI system, you already have the wideband and you also get datalogging that makes it much easier to tune. I would think this would be a benefit for drag racing also.
The challenge with EFI has always been understanding the software and the ECU design/concepts, what everything does. Systems like the new Terminator X bring in a much easier to use interface with a very good price point. I hated messing with HP tuners, and find the Holley setup much better for me. I would never go back to a factory ECU for my setups (swaps into older cars that don't need any other info from the ECU).
If you have an LS motor with typical OEM parts, it might be more expensive to go with a carb vs a base Terminator X setup. Intake, Carb, Spark box, carb tuning parts, etc. Cheaper if you already have carb parts.
IMO, tuning is the same, you have to figure out the same things whether its EFI or Carb. You need to tune Idle, cruise, WOT, pedal transitions, spark curves, etc. In the end, you have to understand what the car needs, and how to set it up.
With a carb, you test it, and change some parts (so you need a stock of assorted parts). And you need to figure out how you are getting data. Factoring in a wideband is more money. With a good EFI system, you already have the wideband and you also get datalogging that makes it much easier to tune. I would think this would be a benefit for drag racing also.
10-21-2019, 10:54 PM
#27
Launching!
Thread Starter
A system more intuitive than HP Tuners would be great. Is the Holley Terminator kit easier to get a handle on?
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G Atsma (10-22-2019)
10-21-2019, 11:42 PM
#29
For the OP, it will be quite easy to tune an engine that's stock or near stock. Pretty much just have to load up one of the baseline tunes that Holley provides and it will drive. I see this all the time with people doing stock and mild LS swaps with zero experience in tuning. It's that easy!
And since you're going to do incremental changes along the way, it shouldn't present too much of a challenge to update the tune as you go.
It's when you use a big cam that you really have to learn to be a tuner. Or you can just pay a shop to tune it for you, and then you sort out the few little driving issues that remain afterwards. But I'm not going to lie, tuning a rowdy engine can be a pain in the ***
And since you're going to do incremental changes along the way, it shouldn't present too much of a challenge to update the tune as you go.
It's when you use a big cam that you really have to learn to be a tuner. Or you can just pay a shop to tune it for you, and then you sort out the few little driving issues that remain afterwards. But I'm not going to lie, tuning a rowdy engine can be a pain in the ***
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G Atsma (10-22-2019)
10-22-2019, 06:57 AM
#30
Coming from zero experience, to me HP Tuners isn't terrible, but its the GM computer that is complex. I had the whole setup: GM 0411 ECU, Painless harness, HP Tuners, and a wideband. I bit the bullet this year, and switched to the terminator. I will be selling all of my old stuff on here, or ebay to make back half the cost.
Result: Within 2 days, the Holley had the truck running better than it ever had. Tuning is much easier to understand and does things the factory ECU could never do.
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G Atsma (10-22-2019)
10-22-2019, 11:52 AM
#31
Launching!
I've used SCT Flash and Binary Editor (with a Moates Quarterhorse) on Ford EEC-IV/V ECUs, SCT Flash on a 2013 Mustang (ugh, the dozens of timing tables!), RomRaider on Subaru 16 and 32-bit ECUs, HP Tuners on a GM P59 (speed density, 2-bar, DBW), and Holley Terminator X Max. They all have their own complexities, but the Terminator X Max has had the easiest learning curve and the best help documentation by far. It's been my experience that the big differences are:
1. Ability to edit things "live", while the engine is running. Reflash solutions typically require you to stop the engine, reflash the ECU (which can take anywhere from 30 seconds to several minutes), restart the engine, and test your changes. Live tuning drastically shortens the feedback cycle and makes tuning into a much more interactive and enjoyable experience. HP Tuners has some facility for live tuning on a lot of the supported ECUs, but due to memory restrictions, you can only do live edits on a few tables at a time. In the Holley stuff, you can do just about everything except for major setup changes (such as changing sensor mappings or reassigning inputs/outputs) on the fly.
2. Ability to get to a startup tune that is at least a decent basis for future work. If you are working with most reflash solutions, you typically need to get a base OS/image to put onto the ECU, and then you have to change a bunch of stuff to even get it into a tunable state. For example, you'll have to find and change all of the injector parameters, probably track down and temporarily disable traction control and torque truncation logic (otherwise, the ECU never delivers the amount of spark advance you're commanding, and you get to play games with that), probably change a few magic limits/constants, disable various emissions monitors, etc. The Holley stuff runs you through a wizard to build a startup tune, and although it won't necessarily run great, it does give you a decent starting point.
3. The degree to which you have to fight with extended functionality, most of which is added by manufacturers to meet emissions or warranty targets. Let's say you want to find optimal spark advance on a chassis dyno. If you're using something like HP Tuners, you have a lot of things that could get in your way, baked into the factory ECU logic. For example, the (actually quite useful) timing retard for coolant and air temp are set to be VERY aggressive on some setups. The "burst knock" logic causes the timing to do weird stuff to avoid knock on sudden pedal changes. There's some torque truncation, traction control, and transmission protection logic that will probably get in your way too. When you're working with an aftermarket ECU like the Holley stuff, those functions (to the extent they even exist) are "zeroed out" in your base tune, and you can choose to put reasonable values in them later. Basically, you spend less time wondering "why did the ECU do that?".
4. Limits. There tend to be some mathematical limits (maximum load/volumetric efficiency, maximum mass air flow) in any ECU design, since it's a computer and the data it stores only has so many bits. On some factory ECUs, these can be really noticeable. On Ford EEC-IV/V, for example, there is a maximum airflow value for the MAF. If you exceed that, you typically divide the whole table by two, then do the same to most of the injector values, the engine displacement constant, and a bunch of other stuff. This is less of an issue with aftermarket ECUs, either because they have higher limits, or because the software does a better job of hiding these implementation details from you.
5. Inputs and outputs. Factory ECUs tend to have inputs and outputs with fixed functions. Aftermarket systems often have programmable inputs and outputs that you can customize to do various things, like controlling pumps or fans based on custom logic.
The short version is that factory ECUs have their place, especially in applications where you need to pass a "plug in" emissions test, but aftermarket solutions like the Holley ECUs give you a bit more flexibility, a more "interactive" tuning experience, and you typically spend less time fighting with obscure ECU logic that is difficult to tune outside of an OE engine test cell.
1. Ability to edit things "live", while the engine is running. Reflash solutions typically require you to stop the engine, reflash the ECU (which can take anywhere from 30 seconds to several minutes), restart the engine, and test your changes. Live tuning drastically shortens the feedback cycle and makes tuning into a much more interactive and enjoyable experience. HP Tuners has some facility for live tuning on a lot of the supported ECUs, but due to memory restrictions, you can only do live edits on a few tables at a time. In the Holley stuff, you can do just about everything except for major setup changes (such as changing sensor mappings or reassigning inputs/outputs) on the fly.
2. Ability to get to a startup tune that is at least a decent basis for future work. If you are working with most reflash solutions, you typically need to get a base OS/image to put onto the ECU, and then you have to change a bunch of stuff to even get it into a tunable state. For example, you'll have to find and change all of the injector parameters, probably track down and temporarily disable traction control and torque truncation logic (otherwise, the ECU never delivers the amount of spark advance you're commanding, and you get to play games with that), probably change a few magic limits/constants, disable various emissions monitors, etc. The Holley stuff runs you through a wizard to build a startup tune, and although it won't necessarily run great, it does give you a decent starting point.
3. The degree to which you have to fight with extended functionality, most of which is added by manufacturers to meet emissions or warranty targets. Let's say you want to find optimal spark advance on a chassis dyno. If you're using something like HP Tuners, you have a lot of things that could get in your way, baked into the factory ECU logic. For example, the (actually quite useful) timing retard for coolant and air temp are set to be VERY aggressive on some setups. The "burst knock" logic causes the timing to do weird stuff to avoid knock on sudden pedal changes. There's some torque truncation, traction control, and transmission protection logic that will probably get in your way too. When you're working with an aftermarket ECU like the Holley stuff, those functions (to the extent they even exist) are "zeroed out" in your base tune, and you can choose to put reasonable values in them later. Basically, you spend less time wondering "why did the ECU do that?".
4. Limits. There tend to be some mathematical limits (maximum load/volumetric efficiency, maximum mass air flow) in any ECU design, since it's a computer and the data it stores only has so many bits. On some factory ECUs, these can be really noticeable. On Ford EEC-IV/V, for example, there is a maximum airflow value for the MAF. If you exceed that, you typically divide the whole table by two, then do the same to most of the injector values, the engine displacement constant, and a bunch of other stuff. This is less of an issue with aftermarket ECUs, either because they have higher limits, or because the software does a better job of hiding these implementation details from you.
5. Inputs and outputs. Factory ECUs tend to have inputs and outputs with fixed functions. Aftermarket systems often have programmable inputs and outputs that you can customize to do various things, like controlling pumps or fans based on custom logic.
The short version is that factory ECUs have their place, especially in applications where you need to pass a "plug in" emissions test, but aftermarket solutions like the Holley ECUs give you a bit more flexibility, a more "interactive" tuning experience, and you typically spend less time fighting with obscure ECU logic that is difficult to tune outside of an OE engine test cell.
10-22-2019, 05:25 PM
#32
Launching!
Thread Starter
No one drives around going: "Well, my car runs like crap, but at least I saved a couple bucks, so its all good".
Coming from zero experience, to me HP Tuners isn't terrible, but its the GM computer that is complex. I had the whole setup: GM 0411 ECU, Painless harness, HP Tuners, and a wideband. I bit the bullet this year, and switched to the terminator. I will be selling all of my old stuff on here, or ebay to make back half the cost.
Result: Within 2 days, the Holley had the truck running better than it ever had. Tuning is much easier to understand and does things the factory ECU could never do.
Coming from zero experience, to me HP Tuners isn't terrible, but its the GM computer that is complex. I had the whole setup: GM 0411 ECU, Painless harness, HP Tuners, and a wideband. I bit the bullet this year, and switched to the terminator. I will be selling all of my old stuff on here, or ebay to make back half the cost.
Result: Within 2 days, the Holley had the truck running better than it ever had. Tuning is much easier to understand and does things the factory ECU could never do.
10-28-2019, 08:49 AM
#35
On The Tree
Cavemen I have dabbled in tuning myself but I don't do it often enough to be good. I have paid multiple times to get crappy tuning done, so my last swap has a carb. It ended up way cheaper (used intake and msd box for coils) than even a holley system would be. That and no payout for tuning over and over.
10-28-2019, 09:08 AM
#36
Launching!
Basically, easier setup if you're starting over from scratch. Greater integration and flexibility if you're building a car that uses boost, nitrous, or other aftermarket gadgets.
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G Atsma (10-28-2019)
10-28-2019, 12:56 PM
#37
Carbs and low tension rings... be careful. These things wash out FAST if your fuel aint dialed right. For new swappers its best to tow it to a tuner and get it tuned. As a former carb guy who did just that? I havent used a carb since, this EFI stuff is the bees knees dont fear it, embrace it. If you do carb it err on the small side to keep the vac signal nice and strong. These engines do not like to run rich. Even a few minutes will wash out the rings
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G Atsma (10-28-2019)
10-28-2019, 01:00 PM
#38
TECH Senior Member
I have dabbled in tuning myself but I don't do it often enough to be good. I have paid multiple times to get crappy tuning done, so my last swap has a carb. It ended up way cheaper (used intake and msd box for coils) than even a holley system would be. That and no payout for tuning over and over.
10-28-2019, 01:21 PM
#39
Where did you come up with $650 from? I just checked, its $299 and you have to buy two credits for $50 each.....so $400. Do you need the pro? No.
You sound like you think your own self is stupid and cant learn how to tune. Thats what I think everytime I see someone making up excuses of why they went to a carb or thinking about going to a carb. Do you think anyone that tunes, just automatically knew how to do it? No. If you arent a complete idiot, you can read and have access to the internet, you can learn it too. Its not hard. But if you are a complete idiot (no offense meant....just making you think about this....) then yea, maybe you should go to a carb, I mean I guess I cant blame you, who would rather tap on buttons and change things than to unscrew bowls, mess with jets and get gas all over yourself and your engine. Now THAT doesnt sound boring. (had to throw in a little sarcasm....because why not? lol)
You sound like you think your own self is stupid and cant learn how to tune. Thats what I think everytime I see someone making up excuses of why they went to a carb or thinking about going to a carb. Do you think anyone that tunes, just automatically knew how to do it? No. If you arent a complete idiot, you can read and have access to the internet, you can learn it too. Its not hard. But if you are a complete idiot (no offense meant....just making you think about this....) then yea, maybe you should go to a carb, I mean I guess I cant blame you, who would rather tap on buttons and change things than to unscrew bowls, mess with jets and get gas all over yourself and your engine. Now THAT doesnt sound boring. (had to throw in a little sarcasm....because why not? lol)
Last edited by Kfxguy; 10-28-2019 at 02:01 PM.
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G Atsma (10-28-2019)