Thinking About Ditching EFI
10-28-2019, 05:54 PM
#41
On The Tree
In your mind. I OWN 3 ls swapped vehicles 6 total. 2 with carbs. You wanna guess which is fastest and can (if not driven like a total jerk) get the best mileage? So If I or anyone wants a carb so what. And for the record I have gotten paid a bunch to tune carbs.
10-28-2019, 08:28 PM
#43
Built-in logic for boost control, nitrous (W/M control on HP/Dominator models), programmable inputs, programmable outputs that can be triggered on combinations of signals (e.g. "turn this output on if we're over 4000 RPM and 5 psi of boost"). Self-learning VE features based on feedback from wideband O2. Ability to re-scale X/Y axes on most tables to get resolution where you need it. Somewhat easier learning curve.
Basically, easier setup if you're starting over from scratch. Greater integration and flexibility if you're building a car that uses boost, nitrous, or other aftermarket gadgets.
Basically, easier setup if you're starting over from scratch. Greater integration and flexibility if you're building a car that uses boost, nitrous, or other aftermarket gadgets.
10-29-2019, 12:39 AM
#44
What it comes down to is can you tune or not, I found EFI tuning is no different than a carb and distributor. It's actually easier once you understand the software.
When it comes to EFI and non oem tunes, I would bet that most of the tunes people are running right now could be improved. Tuning to get the car/truck to run good is easy but to get all aspects of a tune dialed in correctly takes time and skill that most people don't have. My truck runs great but I'd be fool to think there isn't someone out there that could make it better. There are lots of good tuners but not nearly as many great ones.
When it comes to EFI and non oem tunes, I would bet that most of the tunes people are running right now could be improved. Tuning to get the car/truck to run good is easy but to get all aspects of a tune dialed in correctly takes time and skill that most people don't have. My truck runs great but I'd be fool to think there isn't someone out there that could make it better. There are lots of good tuners but not nearly as many great ones.
Last edited by LLLosingit; 10-29-2019 at 12:44 AM.
10-29-2019, 11:07 AM
#45
1) Closed Loop Fueling, even in WOT. The factory systems are only closed loop in light throttle cruise. Holley is able to correct AFR under most conditions including WOT. And is able to learn during these times as well.
2) Learning: This is just easier on the Holley. With the factory ECU + HP Tuners + Aftermarket wideband, you need to run logs, then get your histogram data, modify your tune, and reload. Holley's self learn is functionally the same thing, but does all of those steps more or less for you.
3) Interface: Holley Software is much more straightforward, IMO. You also have more resolution in fuel/spark maps, compared to the GM stuff.
4) Logging & Live Tuning: With the Holley, you can be connected, and watch live where you are in your tune at that moment, and I believe make live changes in real time to the tune (I have never tried that). The logging is really good, and you can record and then playback your runs at home. Again, you are watching your playback of all the signals you wanted, but then also you are seeing which cells the tune is in at that time. This makes it MUCH easier for the average joe to tune. I can datalog without any additional equipment in the car with me at the time (see note in #5 why its important for me).
5) Multiple tunes. I personally like having the 3.5" handheld. I have a GMC Jimmy (Convertible) with no top and no locking storage. So I don't want a laptop with me. You can store many tunes on the SD Card, and switch between them in a few seconds. So, for example, I have a "Known Good" Tune that always stays on there. If I make some changes and find issues on a test drive, I can always swap back to that one to get me home.
10-29-2019, 11:30 AM
#46
TECH Senior Member
The unique thing about the Holley compared to factory ECMs is that the Holley uses wide band O2 sensors full time rather than a MAF sensor. This enables the tuning-while-driving feature.
10-29-2019, 12:31 PM
#47
Launching!
The (possible) downside is that it's actually "wide band O2 sensor" (singular). The full-blown Dominator ECU can actually run two widebands, but the HP and Terminator lines do not support that.
It's also speed density or bust. No MAF, VAM, or anything like that. I think you can do Alpha-N if you want it, but that's probably not the greatest idea for a street car.
It's also speed density or bust. No MAF, VAM, or anything like that. I think you can do Alpha-N if you want it, but that's probably not the greatest idea for a street car.
10-29-2019, 04:34 PM
#48
The (possible) downside is that it's actually "wide band O2 sensor" (singular). The full-blown Dominator ECU can actually run two widebands, but the HP and Terminator lines do not support that.
It's also speed density or bust. No MAF, VAM, or anything like that. I think you can do Alpha-N if you want it, but that's probably not the greatest idea for a street car.
It's also speed density or bust. No MAF, VAM, or anything like that. I think you can do Alpha-N if you want it, but that's probably not the greatest idea for a street car.
10-30-2019, 06:00 AM
#49
Nothing wrong with a good carb set up. Lots of advantages even, all of which have been discussed a million times on a billion different internet threads. The challenge is sifting through all the ignorance.
I think a lot of the ignorance about carbs comes from equating them with 70's vintage OEM vehicles. Wide band O2 meters and the power of the internet make it possible to tune carbs to be very fine drivers.
I will tell you carb and EFI people seem to have a different outlook on self sufficiency. If you are the type of person who doesn't like the smell of gas on your hands than by all means, go EFI and hire a "tuner". If you like to tinker, want something that you can easily swap from vehicle to vehicle, something you can tune yourself, then a carb will give you what you want.
The more interesting phenomenon is why EFI people so often act threatened by carb'd motors. Don't understand why these threads always go so far off topic.
People driving fossil fuel vehicles complaining about living in the stone age, how funny is that?
I think a lot of the ignorance about carbs comes from equating them with 70's vintage OEM vehicles. Wide band O2 meters and the power of the internet make it possible to tune carbs to be very fine drivers.
I will tell you carb and EFI people seem to have a different outlook on self sufficiency. If you are the type of person who doesn't like the smell of gas on your hands than by all means, go EFI and hire a "tuner". If you like to tinker, want something that you can easily swap from vehicle to vehicle, something you can tune yourself, then a carb will give you what you want.
The more interesting phenomenon is why EFI people so often act threatened by carb'd motors. Don't understand why these threads always go so far off topic.
People driving fossil fuel vehicles complaining about living in the stone age, how funny is that?
10-30-2019, 10:14 AM
#50
TECH Senior Member
Wide band O2 meters... hey that's what EFI guys use! So they don't have to tinker as much...
Nobody is "threatened" by carbs. It's just that, as you say, they must be tinkered with repeatedly to keep them as well tuned as EFI keeps itself tuned. You tune EFI ONCE. DONE.
We proponents of EFI have a hard time seeing any advantage in such an antiquated system when a very good EFI system comes on EVERY LS ENGINE BUILT.
I would rather hook up an OBDII cable ONCE than fiddle with jets every time a parameter changes (altitude, DA, etc.)
We have moved on....
Nobody is "threatened" by carbs. It's just that, as you say, they must be tinkered with repeatedly to keep them as well tuned as EFI keeps itself tuned. You tune EFI ONCE. DONE.
We proponents of EFI have a hard time seeing any advantage in such an antiquated system when a very good EFI system comes on EVERY LS ENGINE BUILT.
I would rather hook up an OBDII cable ONCE than fiddle with jets every time a parameter changes (altitude, DA, etc.)
We have moved on....
10-30-2019, 11:25 AM
#51
Launching!
My main point was that the major differences between "factory EFI" and the Holley stuff (as well as all other full aftermarket systems I'm aware of) include the single wideband thing and the complete lack of support for air meters like MAFs, etc.
Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
If you are the type of person who doesn't like the smell of gas on your hands than by all means, go EFI and hire a "tuner". If you like to tinker, want something that you can easily swap from vehicle to vehicle, something you can tune yourself, then a carb will give you what you want.
That's not entirely fair, considering that a lot of EFI users can, and do, tune their own stuff. Although I'm not in the habit of popping engines out and putting them in other vehicles on a regular basis, that is obviously easier with a carbed setup.
10-30-2019, 02:08 PM
#52
They must be tinkered with repeatedly to keep them as well tuned as EFI keeps itself tuned. You tune EFI ONCE. DONE.
We proponents of EFI have a hard time seeing any advantage in such an antiquated system when a very good EFI system comes on EVERY LS ENGINE BUILT.
I would rather hook up an OBDII cable ONCE than fiddle with jets every time a parameter changes (altitude, DA, etc.)
We have moved on....
We proponents of EFI have a hard time seeing any advantage in such an antiquated system when a very good EFI system comes on EVERY LS ENGINE BUILT.
I would rather hook up an OBDII cable ONCE than fiddle with jets every time a parameter changes (altitude, DA, etc.)
We have moved on....
On my daily drivers the only thing I ever did was change the fuel and air filter and spray some carb cleaner on the butterflies to keep them clean.
There are many advantages to a carb but most have to do with reliability, I have never once been stranded due to a carburetor or points/HEI type ignition system, There is so little to fail that if something did go wrong it took minutes to figure it out and usually minutes to fix. EFI is considerably more complex and if something goes wrong you better hope it throws a code or you might be stuck chasing your tail trying to figure out what it is or sending it to a shop with scanner that most people can't afford to tell you what the problem is or spend hundreds on Hptuners, I'm all about efi because of the advantages it does have but I laugh when people talk **** about carburetors because it's usually obvious that they never knew how to tune one or never had a car with one.
10-30-2019, 02:15 PM
#53
Yeah, if I recall, that's there so you can run a gigantic cam and have some hope of having the thing idle despite the erratic vacuum signal to the MAP sensor.
My main point was that the major differences between "factory EFI" and the Holley stuff (as well as all other full aftermarket systems I'm aware of) include the single wideband thing and the complete lack of support for air meters like MAFs, etc.
.
My main point was that the major differences between "factory EFI" and the Holley stuff (as well as all other full aftermarket systems I'm aware of) include the single wideband thing and the complete lack of support for air meters like MAFs, etc.
.
10-30-2019, 02:29 PM
#54
TECH Senior Member
I have to ask how old you are? Because if you're over 45 and made that statement then you were obviously doing something wrong. I would tune my carb and they were good to go until they needed rebuilt and they would last years, When I raced we might make a jet change but not very damn often because it was rarely needed except in the early spring or fall when the temps were considerably colder and the air is dry, Most guys didn't bother making changes at all.
On my daily drivers the only thing I ever did was change the fuel and air filter and spray some carb cleaner on the butterflies to keep them clean.
There are many advantages to a carb but most have to do with reliability, I have never once been stranded due to a carburetor or points/HEI type ignition system, There is so little to fail that if something did go wrong it took minutes to figure it out and usually minutes to fix. EFI is considerably more complex and if something goes wrong you better hope it throws a code or you might be stuck chasing your tail trying to figure out what it is or sending it to a shop with scanner that most people can't afford to tell you what the problem is or spend hundreds on Hptuners, I'm all about efi because of the advantages it does have but I laugh when people talk **** about carburetors because it's usually obvious that they never knew how to tune one or never had a car with one.
On my daily drivers the only thing I ever did was change the fuel and air filter and spray some carb cleaner on the butterflies to keep them clean.
There are many advantages to a carb but most have to do with reliability, I have never once been stranded due to a carburetor or points/HEI type ignition system, There is so little to fail that if something did go wrong it took minutes to figure it out and usually minutes to fix. EFI is considerably more complex and if something goes wrong you better hope it throws a code or you might be stuck chasing your tail trying to figure out what it is or sending it to a shop with scanner that most people can't afford to tell you what the problem is or spend hundreds on Hptuners, I'm all about efi because of the advantages it does have but I laugh when people talk **** about carburetors because it's usually obvious that they never knew how to tune one or never had a car with one.
10-30-2019, 04:33 PM
#55
EFI is not high tech. Fuel injection has been used extensively since WWII aircraft, arguably the golden age of high performance motor development. Germans aircraft had direct injection motors with hydraulically driven, variable speed super chargers and nitrous. Back then it was high tech. Today? Nothing new here.
In my opinion very little on an LS motor is high tech. Short of maybe manufacturing techniques nothing is cutting edge. Most of it is just an evolutionary application of consumer electronics, technology that is typically multiple generations old, designed to meet smog standards. People who try and say otherwise look foolish.
10-30-2019, 06:04 PM
#56
EFI is not high tech. Fuel injection has been used extensively since WWII aircraft, arguably the golden age of high performance motor development. Germans aircraft had direct injection motors with hydraulically driven, variable speed super chargers and nitrous. Back then it was high tech. Today? Nothing new here.
10-30-2019, 08:46 PM
#57
Lol.. some good stuff here. I assure you, quite a few of us EFI guys get plenty of gas and oil on our hands..I just feel like sitting in the AC while dialing in the car.. 
Yea that def makes it handy for someone just getting into it and learning it. have been using HP Tuners for 10 years and not really doing anything too big with it, so it works for me.
I have done both a 0411 Red/Blue ECU and Now a Term X Maxx in my NA 6.0 GMC, which is a street cruise, not a race vehicle. Here are what I see the advantages are for the 'typical everyman'
1) Closed Loop Fueling, even in WOT. The factory systems are only closed loop in light throttle cruise. Holley is able to correct AFR under most conditions including WOT. And is able to learn during these times as well.
2) Learning: This is just easier on the Holley. With the factory ECU + HP Tuners + Aftermarket wideband, you need to run logs, then get your histogram data, modify your tune, and reload. Holley's self learn is functionally the same thing, but does all of those steps more or less for you.
3) Interface: Holley Software is much more straightforward, IMO. You also have more resolution in fuel/spark maps, compared to the GM stuff.
4) Logging & Live Tuning: With the Holley, you can be connected, and watch live where you are in your tune at that moment, and I believe make live changes in real time to the tune (I have never tried that). The logging is really good, and you can record and then playback your runs at home. Again, you are watching your playback of all the signals you wanted, but then also you are seeing which cells the tune is in at that time. This makes it MUCH easier for the average joe to tune. I can datalog without any additional equipment in the car with me at the time (see note in #5 why its important for me).
5) Multiple tunes. I personally like having the 3.5" handheld. I have a GMC Jimmy (Convertible) with no top and no locking storage. So I don't want a laptop with me. You can store many tunes on the SD Card, and switch between them in a few seconds. So, for example, I have a "Known Good" Tune that always stays on there. If I make some changes and find issues on a test drive, I can always swap back to that one to get me home.
1) Closed Loop Fueling, even in WOT. The factory systems are only closed loop in light throttle cruise. Holley is able to correct AFR under most conditions including WOT. And is able to learn during these times as well.
2) Learning: This is just easier on the Holley. With the factory ECU + HP Tuners + Aftermarket wideband, you need to run logs, then get your histogram data, modify your tune, and reload. Holley's self learn is functionally the same thing, but does all of those steps more or less for you.
3) Interface: Holley Software is much more straightforward, IMO. You also have more resolution in fuel/spark maps, compared to the GM stuff.
4) Logging & Live Tuning: With the Holley, you can be connected, and watch live where you are in your tune at that moment, and I believe make live changes in real time to the tune (I have never tried that). The logging is really good, and you can record and then playback your runs at home. Again, you are watching your playback of all the signals you wanted, but then also you are seeing which cells the tune is in at that time. This makes it MUCH easier for the average joe to tune. I can datalog without any additional equipment in the car with me at the time (see note in #5 why its important for me).
5) Multiple tunes. I personally like having the 3.5" handheld. I have a GMC Jimmy (Convertible) with no top and no locking storage. So I don't want a laptop with me. You can store many tunes on the SD Card, and switch between them in a few seconds. So, for example, I have a "Known Good" Tune that always stays on there. If I make some changes and find issues on a test drive, I can always swap back to that one to get me home.
11-03-2019, 12:03 PM
#58
Launching!
Thread Starter
Where did you come up with $650 from? I just checked, its $299 and you have to buy two credits for $50 each.....so $400. Do you need the pro? No.
You sound like you think your own self is stupid and cant learn how to tune. Thats what I think everytime I see someone making up excuses of why they went to a carb or thinking about going to a carb. Do you think anyone that tunes, just automatically knew how to do it? No. If you arent a complete idiot, you can read and have access to the internet, you can learn it too. Its not hard. But if you are a complete idiot (no offense meant....just making you think about this....) then yea, maybe you should go to a carb, I mean I guess I cant blame you, who would rather tap on buttons and change things than to unscrew bowls, mess with jets and get gas all over yourself and your engine. Now THAT doesnt sound boring. (had to throw in a little sarcasm....because why not? lol)
You sound like you think your own self is stupid and cant learn how to tune. Thats what I think everytime I see someone making up excuses of why they went to a carb or thinking about going to a carb. Do you think anyone that tunes, just automatically knew how to do it? No. If you arent a complete idiot, you can read and have access to the internet, you can learn it too. Its not hard. But if you are a complete idiot (no offense meant....just making you think about this....) then yea, maybe you should go to a carb, I mean I guess I cant blame you, who would rather tap on buttons and change things than to unscrew bowls, mess with jets and get gas all over yourself and your engine. Now THAT doesnt sound boring. (had to throw in a little sarcasm....because why not? lol)
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/h...8-02/overview/
11-03-2019, 12:04 PM
#59
Launching!
Thread Starter
I have done both a 0411 Red/Blue ECU and Now a Term X Maxx in my NA 6.0 GMC, which is a street cruise, not a race vehicle. Here are what I see the advantages are for the 'typical everyman'
1) Closed Loop Fueling, even in WOT. The factory systems are only closed loop in light throttle cruise. Holley is able to correct AFR under most conditions including WOT. And is able to learn during these times as well.
2) Learning: This is just easier on the Holley. With the factory ECU + HP Tuners + Aftermarket wideband, you need to run logs, then get your histogram data, modify your tune, and reload. Holley's self learn is functionally the same thing, but does all of those steps more or less for you.
3) Interface: Holley Software is much more straightforward, IMO. You also have more resolution in fuel/spark maps, compared to the GM stuff.
4) Logging & Live Tuning: With the Holley, you can be connected, and watch live where you are in your tune at that moment, and I believe make live changes in real time to the tune (I have never tried that). The logging is really good, and you can record and then playback your runs at home. Again, you are watching your playback of all the signals you wanted, but then also you are seeing which cells the tune is in at that time. This makes it MUCH easier for the average joe to tune. I can datalog without any additional equipment in the car with me at the time (see note in #5 why its important for me).
5) Multiple tunes. I personally like having the 3.5" handheld. I have a GMC Jimmy (Convertible) with no top and no locking storage. So I don't want a laptop with me. You can store many tunes on the SD Card, and switch between them in a few seconds. So, for example, I have a "Known Good" Tune that always stays on there. If I make some changes and find issues on a test drive, I can always swap back to that one to get me home.
1) Closed Loop Fueling, even in WOT. The factory systems are only closed loop in light throttle cruise. Holley is able to correct AFR under most conditions including WOT. And is able to learn during these times as well.
2) Learning: This is just easier on the Holley. With the factory ECU + HP Tuners + Aftermarket wideband, you need to run logs, then get your histogram data, modify your tune, and reload. Holley's self learn is functionally the same thing, but does all of those steps more or less for you.
3) Interface: Holley Software is much more straightforward, IMO. You also have more resolution in fuel/spark maps, compared to the GM stuff.
4) Logging & Live Tuning: With the Holley, you can be connected, and watch live where you are in your tune at that moment, and I believe make live changes in real time to the tune (I have never tried that). The logging is really good, and you can record and then playback your runs at home. Again, you are watching your playback of all the signals you wanted, but then also you are seeing which cells the tune is in at that time. This makes it MUCH easier for the average joe to tune. I can datalog without any additional equipment in the car with me at the time (see note in #5 why its important for me).
5) Multiple tunes. I personally like having the 3.5" handheld. I have a GMC Jimmy (Convertible) with no top and no locking storage. So I don't want a laptop with me. You can store many tunes on the SD Card, and switch between them in a few seconds. So, for example, I have a "Known Good" Tune that always stays on there. If I make some changes and find issues on a test drive, I can always swap back to that one to get me home.