Project GatTagO

iTrader: (7)

The LS2 throttle body would have worked just as well. The Terminator X Max supports both the gold and silver blade TBs. With an automatic, you probably won't have issues with the big TB. With a manual transmission it makes it very hard to modulate the throttle with a big TB, especially when you are limited to the cam profile that is built into the lever. The air flow difference between a 90 and a 102 mm TB at low blade angles is huge. In fact, if you look at many stock GM TBs, you will see how they contour the entry in order to restrict air flow at low blade angles. This makes it much easier to drive a car at low speed. Also when tuning, the big TB will have a greater impact on how you need to approach AE tuning because the RoC for MAP will be much greater for a 102mm than for a 90mm. I cation customers against running big TBs, unless there are clear signs that a stock TB is a restriction, which in most cases, a 90mm TB, is more than plenty. DBW also offers the benefit of being able to tune the "cable cam" by allowing adjustments for pedal vs TPS. Also, adjusting the set screw on the throttle body becomes a laptop operation instead of a screw driver operation and it doesn't require a TPS Autoset.

Just food for thought.

Andrew

NCDEERE

iTrader: (1)

Not to highjack but I also have an old South bend, 1939 9"X48". If you contact South bend with your serial number they will send you some great information on your lathe. I have the name and date in 1939 of the person it was shipped to. An old gun shop.

Tuskyz28

Hagger, your attention to detail is serious and I like it. Your C4 go be a blast to drive when completed.

Haggar

So, work has been busy lately. Its kind of crazy trying to help run a huge engineering company from our houses. Its been 8 weeks working from home at this point. While the auto industry is slowed down, my area is in quoting and developing future products, so that continues, and we have a lot of activity quoting products for the Big 3 at the moment. But I was able to get an hour in today.

First up, I received my engine mounts. It's tough, because the things stuff that you'd either get from the store, or with 2 day shipping might take 2+ weeks to get now. These were "2 day priority mail".. that took 2 weeks.

Aynway, they are here. The old mounts shows serious cracking, as you can see here. I believe this occurs as the engine torques and tries to lift on the rubber (on the driver side).



So, get out the old baby gates 3 of them in a triangle and the 4th on top makes a makeshift table. This stuff is great.



Old school trick that I've used since swapping B-series motors into Honda CRXs.. use Urethane window adhesive to fill mounts to firm and strengthen them. So here I've filled all the voids between the existing rubber and the metal strap along the top. Should help strengthen it a little bit.



I use 3M Windo-Weld... its expensive and nasty stuff but it seems to be the goop of choice for years. About $30 a tube, and a seriously long list of safety precautions (Organ damage??). So wear gloves, works outside, and use a chemical respirator. It will cure on the outside pretty quick, but it will take days inside to cure. I won't be putting weight on these for a few days. In my Jimmy, I was able to fix my engine mounts (dirty dingo clamshell style) that sagged a good 1/2"-3/4". In that one, I was able to jack up the engine while in the vehicle, and fill the voids with it in place. It's holding good to this day.

Haggar

I also was able to obtain a power steering pulley remover. The pulley must be removed to fit around the ICT Billet brackets. I almost tried making one, but the local auto parts store had one and they are doing local deliveries.

If you haven't used these before, they are pretty simple. The split pieces go on either side of the pulley center, where there is a groove for this purpose. The puller with its nut goes in place as well, with the bottom part of the nut sitting inside those split pieces. The collar slips over to keep them together and a couple seconds with an impact to tighten the bolt and it presses right off.

Haggar

Last little bit for today was to do a little work on the alternator / power steering bracket. I am not using the recommended pump. Mine (form the TBSS pile of parts) doesn't clear the recessed area inside the ICT Billet bracket. It's close but needs about 2mm more space on one side.

The pump body is 80mm diameter. I don't own a boring head or fly cutter. In fact, the only tooling I have bought for this mill are some end mills and slitting saws. This thing is a Taiwanese round column Rong-Fu style (Poncho is the brand on it) that my grandpa bought new in the 80s, and I received after he passed away ~12 years ago. I looked in the small box of stuff that came with it, and there was an unused shell mill with about a 72mm diameter. Still covered in 40 yr old wax.. It has 4 tools in it, looks like brazed carbides on 1/2" tool blanks. So I found a stubby piece of 1/2" HSS in my piles of lathe tools, and ground a quick flat cutter. I just secured it slightly below the other 3 cutters (I left them in for balance) so that it was only cutting with the HSS. (The carbides had the wrong cutter shape to them). It's the cutter on the right. You can see the other end of the tool has a small point on it for some specific lathe operation.



I didn't grind quite enough side relief into the part, so it rubbed a little one it was deep into the work. But it cut it like butter and worked just fine for what I needed to do. Here's the cut in process/just started, you can see about how much I removed.



Yes, I'm lazy and just clamped it down on top of my milling vice. It was flat enough for my needs. Looking at finished cut, it's clearly *slightly* off level, but it feels good to the hand, flat enough for this purpose.



It left a really nice clean round edge...



Most importantly, the pump fits like a glove!



That's all for today. Tomorrow should be the arrival of my transmission. I am still waiting for my converter though, so I'll probably assemble the intake manifold/fuel injectors next, and keep working on the accessory brackets.

Haggar

Busy with work all day, no progress. Waiting on parts:

I contacted ICT billet about the missing countersunk M10 bolt, and they were nice and quickly sent me a full new hardware pack. Its got every single bolt.... Except the countersunk one. So clearly they have a pile of misbagged parts or something. I need to assemble it all and see why they use a countersunk one. The pump seems to fit in place, perhaps it would contact the belt.

My transmission was due Tuesday. Then UPS updated and it's due today. But there have been no tracking updates for 2 days... No showing it arrive in Michigan or out for delivery, so I'll be surprised to see it this week.

Yank says they've been running 6-8 business days on converters, I think it's day 10 on mine (ordered 14 days ago). Still no shipping notice there.

I have a new bulkhead fitting coming "tomorrow" for the gas tank, to allow more current for the Aeromotive 340 pump.

Starting to run out of things to work on, waiting for parts. But I have enough to keep busy through the weekend

Haggar

Tossing the accessory drive and intake just to make sure nothing interferes. Always makes the engine look better 😁

Haggar

We have progress! Got the old engine into a stand and the new one dropped in place. Fit looks good, no clearance issues anywhere. Seems like tons of clearance with the Holley oil pan and not hitting anything in the firewall. The engine is close to an inch forward from the stock position, which should give me the correct placement for the rear beam and driveshaft, since the new rear diff has a similarly longer snout. Motor mounts are all bolted down. I have a 2x4 between the firewall and engine to keep it from tipping back to much until the transmission is in. It will be here Monday, finally, but I am still waiting on the torque converter to ship.

Vette-byrd

nice progress. Is all that wiring for the bcm? Mines an ‘88 so all I have left is the wiring for lights pretty much.

Haggar

There are still a few wires there to prune out. But it's varied.. some to the AC and blower, some to the fuse block, some like the starter wire, etc. Quite a few just go from the battery are back into the firewall area there. I will re wrap and loom everything over the next few weeks.

Haggar

It's been a busy week, but back at it again. Shipping is still causing delays, but I'm getting there. My transmission arrived, after being delayed by UPS for several days. The current situation is difficult on everyone, for sure.

Anyway, here's my Permormabuilt Pro Race Level 2.


I need to adapt my C4 4L60 tailhousing to fit the new 4L60e. First, I checked the alignment of the 40 tooth reluctor wheel for the VSS. I have heard the position is a little different for the Vette.. Yep, you can see, it's pushed too far forward for the C4 VSS position. It needs to be roughly centered in the opening.



Also, its just barely running on the housing. This is another thing i've heard. MY 1992 tailhousing had a plastic speedo gear, not a tone wheel. So I used a cartridge roll to just clearance the inside a little, just by the opening for the VSS


So, now we need to pull that tone ring back. These are a press fit on the shaft. Not a ton of guidance out there on how to do this on the internet. But we just need to pull it back around 6-7MM or so. This was my first thought. I had a conveniently drilled piece of angle, so I ran a few long bolts through a bearing puller and slowly tightened. Well, didn't work. With the way the bolts are, they pulled unevenly, so, I stopped before I got much force.



I needed something more sturdy. Attempt 2. Same concept, but 3 bolts to have more pressure, and I have a single bolt from a puller to tighten, rather than tightening the individual bolts. Well, that tone wheel is on there good. Thats an old lathe backplate thats just been collecting dust (and I have duplicates of it, also collecting dust). It was the right size and shape. So I slotted it, and tried again. I new it was a gamble, probably a cast iron piece. And, yeah, it snapped the plate in half and didn't budget the wheel.



OK, no messing around this time. Trans is actually hanging suspended by the tone wheel (so its not pushing against the housing, just pulling on the reluctor). A few pumps with the handle, and it slid just fine.



After all that work, it's finally lined up in the center of the opening where I needed it.

Haggar

That VSS relocation was specifically done first, just on the off chance that I dinged the end of the shaft somehow. Because, the other thing I need to do, it shorten the output shaft. C4s had a unique shaft that was approx 15MM shorter than other 2WD shafts. I've never seen them for sale. Rumor is even GM just cut down regular ones, and it *does* look that way when you examine them.

So, lots and lots of measuring to make sure everything was correct, and I marked up the shaft.


I used an angle grinder and a 5" cutoff wheel and shortened the shaft and a flag disc to put a chamfer on the end of the splines to match original shaft. (And yeah, the OEM Corvette 4L60e looks just like this. No long taper or drilled center like the normal 2WD shaft).



And Boom, we have a built C4 transmission. New 1994 Vette VSS sensor and a new output shaft seal are installed into the housing. Just waiting on my Converter. FedEx shows it is in town, but not scheduled to arrive until Tuesday..

Haggar

So, I have a week off work, so hopefully I can get a few things done this week. As long as all goes well, I'll have the entire drivetrain done and installed by Wednesday. I need to see if I have flexplate bolts somewhere.

If it ever stops raining, I'll be heading to the pick-n-pull, and see if I can get a 4 pin alternator, just to save from making a little PWM controller for my current 2 pin. And I want to find a Sanden 508 to at least use as mockup. Its going to be VERY tight to fit in on the upper right side. I need to relocate the radiator hard lines from the upper tank down to the overflow tank, and also remove the old AC lines.

Once the drivetrains in, it's time to start stitching in all the differnet systems.

1) Throttle cable. I'll grab a couple from the junkyard to see what works.

2) Cooling. The factor upper hose has a T splice in it anyway (Used to have a line to heat the TB). So, I'll just remove that and I have a chunk of radiator hose (from a Silverado) which I have laying around from LS swapping the GMC. So I just need a straight 1.25" splice fitting (ordered, should arrive mid week). The factory lower rad hose *might* work with some trimming, we'll see. And then for the radiator hoses off the water pump, it's VERY tight there. But I got some molded 90* hoses that I think will just fit. We'll see.

3) Fuel: The C4 already has 3/8" hard lines with a filter near the engine. I am going to try to plumb in a regulator after the filter, and reuse as much of the OEM as possible. I have a new Tank bulkhead fitting from Racetronix with heavier wire, and will run a new relay and wiring to the tank to run my Aeromotive fuel pump.

4) Exhaust: I'll start measuring it once the drivetrain is in and in final position.

5) Air intake. Gotta see what will fit. I have removed the OEM air pump, which is in the front left corner, so I have space there, or else I'll do something like a C6 LS3/7 setup.

6) Wiring: Hopefully by late this week, I'll start stitching in the Terminator X wiring. It shouldn't be too bad.

JayinMI

I saw you mention you had sat in traffic at the Woodward Dream Cruise. Are you from Michigan?
What U-pull it yards do you hit up?

Jay

Haggar

I will be going to the U pull and save in Pontiac

https://www.u-pullandsave.com/

Its Its usu pretty picked over, but for what I need to get this week, it should be ok. When I need something like a throttle cable, I like bringing a measuring tape and just looking through different trucks to see what I can find, including grabbing a throttle bracket or two to modify. Same with grabbing wiring harness ends, relays, etc.

Haggar

Torque converter arrived, so I really wanted to get it all installed, so the engine would be fully secured. (Up until now, it has been supported by the two engine mounts and a 2x4 between the engine and firewall to keep it from leaning back too far.

Converter is a Yank SS3600. It weighed in at about 10 -11lbs lighter than stock (Yank was dry at this point and the purple one has some fluid in it,


This is the converter in it. I have some paperwork somewhere, I think it's just a stock style replacement that a P.O. had installed. The transmission also had gold-ish paint on it, so might have been rebuilt as well.



Now, you have the 2 key things to do when installing a converter. #1 is getting the converter seated correctly on the transmission. Besides the old 'clunk' method, I always measure the bellhousing to converter pads to check that its seated. This one went just to 1" deep, maybe a hair more. If I remember correctly, my other converter (A Yank PT3200 on a 4L65e) did the same. Did it twice and measured several times, feels correctly seated. I feel fine with it. The LS2 flexplate measured 0.841 from the block surface. So it should be in the right ballpark (I check this math before I jack up the trans). Once it's jacked up and in place. I find a drill bit that fits the gap between the flexplate and converter pad. Here you can see this one fits tight enough to stay in place without dropping. And measures out at 0.163. As long as it's between 0.0625 and 0.1875, it should be OK without any shims. So, it's bolted up, and torqued, with blue loctite.




I use blue for most everything. Not shown here, but the flexplate holes had to be slotted to fit the smaller circle of the old LT style converter. The bolts from flexplate to crank were also blue loctited, and torqued with the 3-step process, finalizing at 74 ft-lbs. Since it's the old style trans and converter, I installed a 0.400" crank spacer, the press in kind (I had one laying around already, so it was 'free'). And then lifted the trans up on a tall trans jack and pulled it into place. Always pull it in with your hands, don't draw the transmission up with the bolts. I like to tighten the bolts with fingers as tight as they can go, then grab one side of the trans and engine and "clamp" them together in my grip. Then tighten the bolts again, go to the other side, clamp with my hands, and tighten the bolts. If you don't tighten the bolts each time (again, just with fingers), then pulling one side usually pushes the other side of the bellhousing farther from the engine.

So, we now have the complete drivetrain in place. LS2 Stroker -> Yank SS3600 -> Performabuilt Pro Race Level 2 4L60e -> Factory Aluminum Dana 36 driveshaft with new u-joints -> Dana 44 rear with 3.33 gears and limited slip. The C-Beam that supports the back of the transmission is also the stock Dana 36 piece. Moving the engine forward around an inch lets you reuse these pieces, as the Dana 44 snout is also about an inch longer. I did not need to modify any of them.

Haggar

Speaking of weights, I've been trying to track them on the engine stuff.

The LT1 weighed in on my picker at 523 lbs. Now, the weight of the scale/chain/load balancer was 16 lbs, so we'll mark it at 507 lbs, which includes the PS pump and Alternator, and the oil is still in the block.





So, then the LS2 long block weighed in at 356 lbs, with the same chains, so we'll call that 340 lbs.



I pull the alternator, PS pump, pulley, brackets and bolts, It weighed 30.7 lbs



The Fast intake with the fuel rail and throttle body weighs 20 lbs



Add 11 lbs for oil...



So, That's 340 + 31 + 20 + 11 = 402 lbs. Now, I noticed that the LS block had the mounts on it, where the LT did not, when weighed. 3.5 lbs each, but also there is another piece and long bolt, so its about 5 lbs per side. So let's back up the LS2 to 392 lbs.

But the LT1 also had its exhaust manifold (not cats, tho), I didn't weight them because I don't want to remove them and possible break a bolt, but I heard they are 14 lbs each. So the 507 becomes 479 lbs.

So, that is 87 lbs weight saving, as close as I can get the two engines.

Now, I have more weight savings coming due to the swap. The cats weigh another 6 lbs each, so manifolds + cats would be 40 lbs, and I expect my headers to shave 10-15 lbs off this. Then, I was able to remove the ASR/throttle cable system, the vacuum actuator for the cruise control, the Air pump system, the TPS module, that was 11 lbs. As noted, the converter was another 11 lbs lighter. So 87 +15+11+11 = 124 lbs reduction, all off the nose of the car. So I'm happy with that. I currently have the spare tire removed, but I need to see if that helps or hurts. Its about 40 lbs for that setup, but it's weight behind the rear axle, so it might actually hurt traction by removing it. (I prefer to add the weight back with a subwoofer and amps ). Car is probably sitting around 3150-3200 lbs at the moment.

DMITTZ

Awesome swap thread.

Haggar

A few updates. I have been in more parts-waiting-mode. But some stuff as arrived.

First up, I could see leaves in the duct that feeds the radiator, and I wanted to pull the AC condenser out and pressure check it. So I pulled the radiator shroud off, which is a complete cover for the cooling system. You can't see the radiator at all with it in place. And.... gross. The front end on these things acts like a vacuum and traps all the road debris that comes along. I was just going to pressure wash it all, but on closer inspection, the lower rows of the radiator are sagging/separating. So I have a new radiator on the way, and a new AC condenser also. These items would be a complete pain to replace later, and don't cost much (I think it was $230 shipped for the pair), so I feel better replacing them with new stuff.




So, the new AC condenser arrived, as well as a B&M 70264 trans cooler. There's not a ton of space in front of the radiator to mount one, so I went with this one. Seems a popular cooler. I *believe* the radiator will arrive tomorrow, and then hopefully I can get it all installed this weekend.

Also, I got a 3-port cover for the oil cooler ports by the filter. I plugged one and use the other 2 ports for the factory C4 oil pressure and oil temp senders. I cut the oil temp sensor down on the lathe and made sure it sticks well into the oil stream (although it doesn't block the flow), and the pressure sensor doesn't stick into the space, since it doesn't need to. So my stock gauges should work. The oil temp sensor does stick down, but its higher than the filter so I don't there is any issue.