LS1GMCTruck

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MarksJunk...I think it would be a safe bet, that you have never owned a performance 351 Cleveland powered car. They ruled the dragstrip & NASCAR in their day ...Gar

marxjunk

WOW, when was their day? cuz i musta be high that decade. Or was it at an all ford show? Anyway, I wasnt trying to beat anyone up, just my opinion, thats all.

1bad70+94camaro

iTrader: (1)

to make a cleveland run as good as ls1 you need,roller cam,killer heads and a damn big pocket.lsx has already got killer aluminum heads,roller cam and an aftermarket support system that rivals the military.i have owned alot of fords being an ex ford guy and have owned 4 cleveland motors and my opinion they just dont cut it.i would rather stroke a 351 windsor than build a cleveland.i just want lsx to power it.plus i already have several lsx motors.i am just waiting to cut someone the money for an oil pan.

Charging TA

Hmm... sure about that? Nascar wise, in the 70s nothing touched Mopar, hence why Dodge was banned... Dodge was the first Nascar to exceed 200mph+. The 426 Hemi, 440 Sixpack and 440 were the kings of Nascar and NHRA back in the late 60s early 70s.

BLWN1

iTrader: (6)

Long live the hemi.... that is what my first thoughts were, Hemi's rule.... hell put a new hemi in the mach....

marxjunk

Afer sitting around for a while, and thinking about it,, i think 351 Bosses suck too! Turds!

nuckifuts

iTrader: (7)

i am a huge fan of LS motors but i couldnt put one in a 70 fastback. those cars are just too nice, i would have a 351 windsor with a YS trim and a carb. either way enjoy it and take some pics.

marxjunk

I like things that are different, thats why the LS1 is appealing to me in a non-ls1 car. If i was going to build a mustang, it's the ls1 for me, but if i wanted to be really fast, i'd do the 460 swap thing. I was just kidding about fords being junk. I've seen some fast ones, but they have always been 428 CJ's or BIG 460 based motors, or turbo'd small blocks. I personally have never seen or heard of a fast 351C, except on nascar stuff myself.....but i don't get out much and i drive a rambler.

1bad70+94camaro

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man,i love you guys.thanks for the input.if i cant do the swap(is there such a thing as cant do?)i will go 460 big block.either way i will get some pics.

Cop Car

iTrader: (14)

thread officialy hijacked...

um, that dosent sound right, from what i remeber is that in the late 60s/early 70s Dodge went out and made the Daytonas and their Plymouth counterpart (slips my mind, road runner maybe?) anyways made very low production number cars with huge hemis, outrageous aero packages and those huge wings. basicly NASCAR saw that next season that Ford/GM would do the same thing and you would have these wacky looking, non production cars running around the track at 200+ mph with minimal safty equipment. Mopar was a big baby and said "if we cant by our rules we are taking our toys and going home" and then basicly did. Isnt this is about the same time that Chrystler was really starting to have problems with money?

oh, and the very few Hemis that were out there were needy bitches, and needed constant attention of they were to be fast. these cars were also extremly rare, expecialy on the streets. GM muscle ruled the 60s...

Charging TA

I know my Mopar stuff. The Charger Daytona and the Superbird were production cars... Sure low number, but still production cars as in they came off an assembly line. There were 503 Charger Daytonas made. There were 1920 Superbirds produced. 43 Hemi Charger Daytonas and 93 Hemi Superbirds.

If you think these numbers are rare, then consider most people believe the Mclaren F1 is the worlds fastest production car... But there were only 107 produced.

Now these are not the only Hemis out there, theres thousands of Challengers, Cudas, Chargers, Superbees, Road Runners...

440s... there were plenty of them back in those days.

Edit: There are a total of 10,904 Street Hemis, not to mention 896 Race Hemis (drag racing versions).

And as for production cars... Mopar holds the world record for fastest accelerating production car, most people do not consider these because they were not street legal. Still production however.

1968 Plymouth S/S Barracuda 426 Hemi V8 HP: 525 1/4:10.5 sec 130mph

1968 Dodge S/S Hemi Dart 426 Hemi V8 HP: 525 1/4:10.5 sec 129mph

Other sources put both of these cars at 10.3 sec.

LS1GMCTruck

iTrader: (2)

You might be too young to remember, but there was a drag race team named "Gapp & Rousch" in the late 60's & all through the 70's and beyond, that was at the top of their game, mostly credited to the dominance of the 351 Clevelands that they used. The best blocks were cast by Ford in Australia for both NASCAR & Drag use, due to their slightly thicker main web casting before machining. You might have heard of the present day "Jack Rousch", who's Ford's biggest Performance engine guru in both sales & development. He was the "Rousch" in "Gapp & Rousch"...

67RSCamaroVette

iTrader: (63)

This thread officially bit the dust. I think he made another.

NHRAMAN

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I agree........

oscareltemblo

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LS it dude show them ford guys that even their cars are begging to be LS'ed so go with it I have a 68' c-10 and I'm also going to put a 6.0 in it screw originallity if it's not their in the first place.

andereck

This is funny watching people debate every muscle car but a Chevy on LS1 tech. For the 351C 4v haters, get off your magazines, you never had one, or one that ran. Today's Yates cylinder heads that are run in cup racing are based almost entirely off the 4v Cleveland and more correctly Boss 302 heads of the late 60's, early 70's. It takes damn near nothing to make well over 500 streetable horsepower with a 351C 4v head motor. A nice high lift solid cam and an 850 will get the job done with flattops.

On to the important but will get ignored stuff. The 70 Mustang will require a front sump oil pan or a rack and pinion conversion. I would convert to the rack and pinion as the stock sloppy power assisted centerlink just sucks. Period. I believe the spindles can be swapped side for side to convert to front steer. Ironically you may end up with 2v Cleveland headers with grafted LS1 flanges. Oil pan clearance may once again bite you. Motor mounts will be weird. There is a stub on each side of the mustang shock tower that the engine mounts to. With the staggered mount of the LS1 you may end up with some kind of motor plate. There's no crossmember under the engine as you know. The LS1 looks so short it will look funny I think when its in there. Good luck....

BLWN1

iTrader: (6)

Funny, stupid, same thing I guess.....

callys

iTrader: (2)

This is the 1st result on Google for this topic.

Updated information on this swap after years of research on my part:

1. I own a numbers matching, shaker, low mile, 351C 4V M Code 70 Mach 1. These are not fast cars. Magazine tests show they ran 15 second 1/4 miles. "Car Craft’s 351 four-barrel, four-speed Mach 1 road test car did the quarter-mile in 15.2 seconds at 94 mph without tweaks." Cars with the 3.00 rear ran a 16.0. A stock mass air flow fox body 5.0 ran 14s. It's also tough to blame the 351C's tires since it turned the same trap speed as the fox (power:weight). A new V6 Toyota Camry runs low 14s.
2. Most internet info about these cars comes from 50 years of urban legends and exaggerated anecdotes.
3. Not "rare" cars by muscle car standards. Ford made ~200k 1970 Mustangs. Dodge made ~165,000 Challengers in all four years1970-1974. The Mach 1 is the "GT" for 1970 - there is no 1970 Mustang GT. Common misconception that the Mach 1 is a special model above the GT as with the 2003-2004 cars. There was briefly a GT offered alongside the Mach 1 in 69, but it had poor sales. Ford made ~41k Mach 1 fastbacks in 1970 and ~72k Mach 1 fastbacks in 1969. There were just ~17k hardtop Challenger R/Ts made in 70-71. There are most likely more 351C 4V Mach 1s than Challenger R/Ts with all engine options combined. Ford sold ~2m Mustangs between 1964-1970.
4. First generation fastbacks have no significant front subframe, no real A pillar, B pillar, or C pillar. One of the flimsiest cars ever made and a poor basis for performance efforts. The fact that Shelby used them 50 years ago doesn't change any of this. Not like first generation Camaros where the front subframe unbolts and can be upgraded/improved/changed.
5. The M Code engine does not run on current pump gas and has to have the compression reduced (11:1 iron cylinder heads). I know, I tried.
6. Richard Holdener posts 351C videos on his channel. An 11:1 compression (once again no pump gas with iron heads) 4V 351C with a healthy cam, dyno temp water, open headers, no accessories, etc makes 450hp. A $700 LM7 5.3 with an aftermarket cam does the same in these conditions. 500hp does not "come easy" especially as installed in the car.
7. The 351C 4V heads flow big numbers on the intake side, but less than a square port LS head, with an even larger intake runner. Exhaust flow is poor.
8. Those recommending a Windsor swap - the Windsor deck height is taller than the C (9.5 vs 9.2). This means almost no aftermarket intake manifolds fit with the shaker. I've tested this. Shaker clearance is tight with the stock 351C manifold. Those recommending classic 351C performance items - big single plane and a solid flat tappet...those intakes aren't even close to fitting unless you want the carb protruding from the shaker opening.
9. 351C have limited modern ignition options. They share a distributor with the 460 engine family. The 460 did come with the TFI distributor, but only had the module mounted to the distributor in one year. These are available "built with new parts" on ebay for $299 as of this post. The TFI distributor with the remote mount module can be used with Holley EFI but it will require modification to the harness.
10. 351Cs can not use roller cams without significant head machining (unless you have a 71 Boss 351 which have a different rocker stand).
11. There are no affordable/factory serpentine options for 351Cs. V-belt high output alternators have challenges. Serpentine 351W accessories do not work. The 351C water pump rotates clockwise. In serpentine setups the water pump rotates counter-clockwise to facilitate the belt wrapping from the opposite direction so that the alternator and power steering pump can be driven clockwise. The inexpensive 351C serpentine setups on google using chinese pulleys will only work for water pump/alternator.
12. 351Cs are not priority main oiling and have a set of bandaids to address that. Hot Rod link to oil
13. Comparing the yates-headed competition engines to the factory 351C is like comparing an SB2 to a 1970 LT1.
14. Mustangs use an externally regulated alternator called the "1G" with a regulator on the passenger fender. Hot Rod link on newer alternators
15. First generation Mustangs do not have a "crossmember". There is a small, brace connecting bar that connects the front frame rails, which unbolts. The engine does not bolt to this. I personally tried the bolt-on rack and pinion conversion that utilizes the factory steering mounts. It is not much better due to the front wheels tendency to walk and hunt over every bump due to horrible strut-rod suspension geometry.
16. These Mustangs have a strange coil spring suspension with a rotating/binding spring perch that sits on top of the upper control arm and then bushes directly against the sheet metal body. This translates to plenty of NVH. It is not comparable to the GM captured coil, wishbone setups of the era.
17. Serious Mustang engine conversion/update attempts require replacing the front suspension. This requires removing/cutting out the front shock towers, cutting the front suspension off and welding/bolting a new front cradle from a manufacturer like TCI, Detroit Speed, etc...Much more serious change than bolting in a different push rod engine.
18. Small 22 or 24" radiator wide in the 67-70 fastbacks. Early cars (64.5-some 67 cutoff date) have even narrower radiators that struggled to cool the original engines. Options for these cars are to weld in the later core support or chop it up. Link to core support modifications
19. No known off the shelf engine mounts (unless someone wants to surprise me) to put the LS on the factory SBF/351C/FE frame stands. Conversions use a common LS engine-side motor mount, like the 4th gen F body or dirty dingo plates, and then fab frame stands.
20. The Hooker cast iron exhaust manifolds for LS clear in the first gen mustang in the wider, later 69-70 engine bay.
21. The 4L60E fits in the stock Mustang tunnel with no modifications and with the engine in the "normal" position. It may be possible to fit larger transmissions...TKO/T56/4L80E by moving the engine further several inches, but after measuring/mocking up with my car it will not fit stock without tunnel mods.
22. Different companies sell drop trans crossmembers for newer Ford automatics like the AOD and 4R70W. May help with using a 4L60E or 4L80E.
23. The LS deck height, 9.24, is almost identical to the 351C. Using a carb-style EFI manifold with a short throttle body, such as the Edelbrock 3878, will allow you to retain the shaker hood at its normal height.
24. No known way to retain the shaker with modern overhead cam Ford Engines.
25. 4th gen F body accessories clear the mustang engine bay.
26. The LS valve covers and passenger exhaust with the above mentioned Hooker manifolds clear the driver side factory PDB booster and steering box. They also clear the Borgeson conversion steering box better than the 351C manifold. The rear coils need to be relocated. There are no clearance issues with the passenger side. The LS starter is on the passenger side like the ford engines...also no clearance issues.
27. The GTO front/mid-front sump pan clears the factory Mustang steering center link, but the power ram can be a problem on power steering cars depending on the installed height of the conversion mounts. The power ram steering is all around terrible.
28. The LS1 power steering pumps are a good match for the borgeson conversion steering box, but not so much the original steering box due to pressure/flow differences.
29. Aftermarket fuel tanks with EFI pump modules are available for these cars.
30. 69 and 70 fastbacks have a single fuel feed line running up the driver's side that fed a mechanical fuel pump at the 5 o'clock position on the original engines. This fuel line has several sections of clamped on rubber hose - it will need to be completely replaced in an efi application even if the C5 corvette regulator is placed in the rear.
31. 69 and 70 mustangs, at least those sold in California, have a carbon canister/evap system in the passenger fenderwell with a small vent line feeding this system.
32. It is less expensive to weld leaf spring mounts onto an 8.8 that already has limited slip than deal with the small bearing/small housing/drum brake 28 spline 9" that came in 351C cars. I have weighed the factory rear vs a disc brake 8.8 from an SN95 cobra and the 8.8 is 60 lbs lighter. Internet dyno tests show the 8.8/12 bolt putting 10-15 more hp to the tires. Between weight and reduced drag an 8.8 should be considered a 20hp modification for these cars.
33. It is often assumed that the 351C cars shipped with the C4 or C6 automatic like other Fords from this era, but 351C cars originally came with Ford's FMX transmission. The FMX has a cast iron case, little aftermarket support, and is very heavy for a three speed automatic, comparable to a 4L80e in weight. Installing an aluminum LS and a 4L60e will remove over 200lbs from the front end of a Mustang. Weight thread for FMX
34. The factory front power discs on 351C cars are very strong for their era compared to competitors, and even out stop some 80s cars. These are probably OK for use in a mild LS setup.

G Atsma

That is a LOT of info!

Thank you!

callys

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np will add more as I remember