Need to decide on which LSX to use! BMW.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Need to decide on which LSX to use! BMW. I have a 1997 BMW 328i, 5 speed manual, 2.8L I6, 190hp, 205lbft, etc. You can find some pictures here:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=659909
Everything listed under "long term plans" has since changed... to what this thread is about.
I'm going to do an LSX swap. I need help deciding which engine to go with.
I'm going to get the full setup - 6spd, V8, and everything else already on there.
My roommate is convinced that the LS6 is the best bang-for-the-buck at this point.
What are the typical prices for a used but great condition:
LS1 setup (inc. 6spd tranny, etc):
LS6 setup:
LS2 setup:
other?:
What are the number comparisons?
A few things you should know before making a recommendation:
-I hope to make this as smooth as possible. I want it to be fairly quiet, fairly smooth - kind of a "sleeper' concept. I want people riding in it to suspect it's stock until I mash the gas pedal.
-400hp/350lbft is enough to push this car to its limit of traction VERY fast, so I don't need whatever is "easy to get to 700hp", etc.
-As far as additional modifications, I plan to do whatever bolt-ons make it more efficient - like an intake that breathes better, etc. I'd pretty much do any "power mods" that would in fact increase fuel economy, but other than that, I feel no need to further sacrifice fuel economy for more power when it will already have plenty.
-I'm a college student, and as such the more expensive this is going to be in total, the longer it's going to be until I can do it, as I'm not going to take out a loan - I have to save.
I'll add more points later as I think about them. Curious to hear your opinions!
-Evan
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=659909
Everything listed under "long term plans" has since changed... to what this thread is about.
I'm going to do an LSX swap. I need help deciding which engine to go with.
I'm going to get the full setup - 6spd, V8, and everything else already on there.
My roommate is convinced that the LS6 is the best bang-for-the-buck at this point.
What are the typical prices for a used but great condition:
LS1 setup (inc. 6spd tranny, etc):
LS6 setup:
LS2 setup:
other?:
What are the number comparisons?
A few things you should know before making a recommendation:
-I hope to make this as smooth as possible. I want it to be fairly quiet, fairly smooth - kind of a "sleeper' concept. I want people riding in it to suspect it's stock until I mash the gas pedal.
-400hp/350lbft is enough to push this car to its limit of traction VERY fast, so I don't need whatever is "easy to get to 700hp", etc.
-As far as additional modifications, I plan to do whatever bolt-ons make it more efficient - like an intake that breathes better, etc. I'd pretty much do any "power mods" that would in fact increase fuel economy, but other than that, I feel no need to further sacrifice fuel economy for more power when it will already have plenty.
-I'm a college student, and as such the more expensive this is going to be in total, the longer it's going to be until I can do it, as I'm not going to take out a loan - I have to save.
I'll add more points later as I think about them. Curious to hear your opinions!
-Evan
Staging Lane
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
From: Louisville KY
On The Tree
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
you might find some useful information here:
http://www.vorshlag.com/ls1bmw0.php
My opinions on engines:
regarding general price (low to high):
LQ4 = LQ9 < LS1 < LS6 < LS2 <<<<<< LS7
Horsepower (low to high):
LQ4 = LS1 < LQ9 < 2001 LS6 < '02-up LS6 = LS2 < LS7
300 = 300-330 < 345 < 385 < 400 = 400 < 505
Engine weight (low to high):
LS7 <? LS2 = LS6 = LS1 < LQ4/LQ9 (Al heads) < LQ4/LQ9 (Iron heads)
http://www.vorshlag.com/ls1bmw0.php
My opinions on engines:
regarding general price (low to high):
LQ4 = LQ9 < LS1 < LS6 < LS2 <<<<<< LS7
Horsepower (low to high):
LQ4 = LS1 < LQ9 < 2001 LS6 < '02-up LS6 = LS2 < LS7
300 = 300-330 < 345 < 385 < 400 = 400 < 505
Engine weight (low to high):
LS7 <? LS2 = LS6 = LS1 < LQ4/LQ9 (Al heads) < LQ4/LQ9 (Iron heads)
TECH Resident
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 841
Likes: 0
From: Baltimore, MD.
Hey Boss....
I'd suggest you start doing some serious shopping....
The LS1 motors will probably be the least expensive of the alum LSx motors. The LS6's and LS2's, being higher output and newer (respectively) will cost you a fair bit more....
The truck motors are certainly something to think long and hard about. The iron block alum head motors (the 4.8, 5.3, and 6.0) all weigh the same, and are a bit heavier than the alum block motors (something like 80 lbs). But the advantage is they are much less expensive (like probably half the money you'd spend on an alum block motor). The iron block motors are also stronger, and can be overbored without issues (not so for the alum blocks). And the 6.0L LQ4 is rated at 300 to 325 hp, depending upon specific application, so its about on par with the LS1 in F-bodies, a little short compared to the Vettes....
That said, a big variable is what accessories and such do you need for the conversion? If you need f-body accessories, for example, you might do better (budget-wise) to get a complete takeout (engine trans harness access, etc) rather than piece together the drivetrain (engine from this, trans from that, harness from something else). The piecemeal approach allows you to spend in smaller chunks, which might be very appetizing, but might cost you more in total.
Good luck with the project....
'JustDreamin'
I'd suggest you start doing some serious shopping....
The LS1 motors will probably be the least expensive of the alum LSx motors. The LS6's and LS2's, being higher output and newer (respectively) will cost you a fair bit more....
The truck motors are certainly something to think long and hard about. The iron block alum head motors (the 4.8, 5.3, and 6.0) all weigh the same, and are a bit heavier than the alum block motors (something like 80 lbs). But the advantage is they are much less expensive (like probably half the money you'd spend on an alum block motor). The iron block motors are also stronger, and can be overbored without issues (not so for the alum blocks). And the 6.0L LQ4 is rated at 300 to 325 hp, depending upon specific application, so its about on par with the LS1 in F-bodies, a little short compared to the Vettes....
That said, a big variable is what accessories and such do you need for the conversion? If you need f-body accessories, for example, you might do better (budget-wise) to get a complete takeout (engine trans harness access, etc) rather than piece together the drivetrain (engine from this, trans from that, harness from something else). The piecemeal approach allows you to spend in smaller chunks, which might be very appetizing, but might cost you more in total.
Good luck with the project....
'JustDreamin'
Trending Topics
TECH Resident
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 841
Likes: 0
From: Baltimore, MD.
The LS6 and LS2 basically make the same power. LS6 was rated at 405hp, the LS2 is rated at 400 hp / 400 ft-lbs of torque.
The potential problem with either of those engines is cost. The LS6 was only installed in Z06 'vettes and CTS-V's (neither are particularly cheap or high production volumes). The LS2 is better since it is or was installed in more platforms, including the base vette (starting in I think '05) and GTO's (now out of production) and I think the SSR (again, out of production). Basically, it boils down to there aren't that many motors floating around salvage yards and such, so you're going to pay for them.
The LS1 in the C5 and F-body was rated at 325 to 350hp and 300 to 325 hp respectively (the F-body's were under-rated). There are some minor differences (between the two models and year to year variations). The cylinder heads, camshafts, and intakes are the biggest differences. The LS1 had much higher production numbers (thanks to the Z28) so there are alot more of them around.
But be warned, the alum block motors can't be overbored to speak of. You're allowed a .005" or .010" overbore (depends upon year of the motor) and that's it. Which means if you've got a block with a scored cylinder wall or big ridges, its junk. Reason it's junk is you can't just put sleeves in it like used to be done for little money at your local machine shop. To re-sleeve a block is BIG money (like $2500) so basically, you buy a fresh block. So, moral of the story is to be careful buying a used alum engine. Make sure you know what you're getting.
The truck motors are attractive from a durability and cost standpoint. I picked up the 6.0L LQ4 that's in my Bravada for $1200 complete (but with no accessories). Heads are basically the same as the LS2 heads (with slightly larger chambers for lower compression, so it'll run happily on 87oct). And 325hp / 370 ft-lb ratings to boot. And I've since swapped to the LS6 intake (which is probably good for a little power and the tall truck intake didn't clear the hood) and a slightly more aggressive tune, so it's probably making a little bit more than those numbers (but not much). Food for thought. And since they're dimensionally identical, you could always put an alum block motor in later, when finances might be a bit more robust....
BTW, I like the Beemer....I've thought on more than one occasion that I'd like to pick one up and do this swap to it. But until I've got a garage built (this years project) and there's a bit more information / parts available, I'll be holding off. Heck, I've still got loose ends to tie up on the Bravada (and it's been running for 6 months).
'JustDreamin'
The potential problem with either of those engines is cost. The LS6 was only installed in Z06 'vettes and CTS-V's (neither are particularly cheap or high production volumes). The LS2 is better since it is or was installed in more platforms, including the base vette (starting in I think '05) and GTO's (now out of production) and I think the SSR (again, out of production). Basically, it boils down to there aren't that many motors floating around salvage yards and such, so you're going to pay for them.
The LS1 in the C5 and F-body was rated at 325 to 350hp and 300 to 325 hp respectively (the F-body's were under-rated). There are some minor differences (between the two models and year to year variations). The cylinder heads, camshafts, and intakes are the biggest differences. The LS1 had much higher production numbers (thanks to the Z28) so there are alot more of them around.
But be warned, the alum block motors can't be overbored to speak of. You're allowed a .005" or .010" overbore (depends upon year of the motor) and that's it. Which means if you've got a block with a scored cylinder wall or big ridges, its junk. Reason it's junk is you can't just put sleeves in it like used to be done for little money at your local machine shop. To re-sleeve a block is BIG money (like $2500) so basically, you buy a fresh block. So, moral of the story is to be careful buying a used alum engine. Make sure you know what you're getting.
The truck motors are attractive from a durability and cost standpoint. I picked up the 6.0L LQ4 that's in my Bravada for $1200 complete (but with no accessories). Heads are basically the same as the LS2 heads (with slightly larger chambers for lower compression, so it'll run happily on 87oct). And 325hp / 370 ft-lb ratings to boot. And I've since swapped to the LS6 intake (which is probably good for a little power and the tall truck intake didn't clear the hood) and a slightly more aggressive tune, so it's probably making a little bit more than those numbers (but not much). Food for thought. And since they're dimensionally identical, you could always put an alum block motor in later, when finances might be a bit more robust....
BTW, I like the Beemer....I've thought on more than one occasion that I'd like to pick one up and do this swap to it. But until I've got a garage built (this years project) and there's a bit more information / parts available, I'll be holding off. Heck, I've still got loose ends to tie up on the Bravada (and it's been running for 6 months).
'JustDreamin'
LS1 Tech Stories
The Best V8 Stories One Small Block at Time
Topdon ONE vs. Artidiag 800 BT2: Which is the Diagnostic Tablet For You?
Pouria Savadkouei
Gas Monkey Built a 6-Wheel Ferrari Testarossa With a Corvette LT4 Engine
Verdad Gallardo
7 Most Reliable High-Performance Engines GM Has Ever Built
Verdad Gallardo
Amazing '71 Camaro Restomod Is Modern Muscle Car Under the Skin
Verdad Gallardo
6 Common C5 Corvette Failures and What's Involved In Repairing Them
Pouria Savadkouei
Retro Modern Bandit Pontiac Trans AM Comes With Burt Reynolds' Autograph
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Greatest Cadillac V Series Performance Models Ever, Ranked
Pouria Savadkouei
Top 10 Most Powerful Chevy Trucks Ever Made!
Hennessey's New Supercharged Silverado ZR2 Has 700 HP
Verdad Gallardo
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,084
Likes: 1
From: Keller, Texas
id just go ls1, with a set of headers a small cam and an ls6 intake manifold you can see the numbers you are looking for. plus the price will hte the lowest.
also the search function is your friend on here. adn welcome to the forum BTW
also the search function is your friend on here. adn welcome to the forum BTW
Teching In
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by Ahheck01
Okay, how about going with the LS6 in my 328i, and getting an e34 (mid/early 90's 5 series) and putting a built LQ4 with some sort of forced induction as my big car/DD 
Dude...I thought you said money was an issue...?? Dreaming is nice, I do it all day in class, but as a fellow college kid doing one of these, unless your parents are loaded and willing to help then money really is an issue. I'd go LS1, T56. Cheapest, lightest. Also, for a little extra you can cam and head it and you will have PLENTY of power for our bimmers. Also, and I'm just curious here...are you going to be doing the work yourself or will you have a shop do it?
Oh yeah...from your sig in bimmerforums I always thought that your car was like a lightish green, lol. You might want someone to chop you a new one...
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by garretvs
Dude...I thought you said money was an issue...?? Dreaming is nice, I do it all day in class, but as a fellow college kid doing one of these, unless your parents are loaded and willing to help then money really is an issue. I'd go LS1, T56. Cheapest, lightest. Also, for a little extra you can cam and head it and you will have PLENTY of power for our bimmers. Also, and I'm just curious here...are you going to be doing the work yourself or will you have a shop do it?
Oh yeah...from your sig in bimmerforums I always thought that your car was like a lightish green, lol. You might want someone to chop you a new one...
Oh yeah...from your sig in bimmerforums I always thought that your car was like a lightish green, lol. You might want someone to chop you a new one...
Srsly though, I'm tyically the one that gets asked to do others' sigs, heh.
Anywho, I was kinda joking about the two setups, and yes, money is somewhat of an issue. What is the difference in price between LS6+T56 and LS1+T56 with all the fixings?
-Evan
TECH Resident
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 841
Likes: 0
From: Baltimore, MD.
Due to the limited availability of LS6's (only available in ZO6's, CTS-V's, and as crate motors) I don't know that there is a rule.
But I'd guess probably $2k to $3k difference in price.....
And for that kind of money difference, you can buy the intake and upgrade to ported LS6 heads and still have some $$$ left over.
But hey, start shopping.....Ebay, this forum, Car-Part.com, there's lots of places to go looking.....Just make sure you have the jingle ($$$) before you run up your credit card.....
Just as a point of reference, I've got $7k+ in the LQ4 swap in my Bravada. That does include the engine (6.0L LQ4, $1200), trans (4L80E, $800), Tcase (custom NV146, $1k), harness & PCM programming ($1k), but also includes lots of other odds and ends that add up VERY quickly. Like exhaust, cooling, driveshafts, various bits and pieces to fabricate crossmembers & such.
Basically, don't be suprised by all the little costs that up.
'JustDreamin'
But I'd guess probably $2k to $3k difference in price.....
And for that kind of money difference, you can buy the intake and upgrade to ported LS6 heads and still have some $$$ left over.
But hey, start shopping.....Ebay, this forum, Car-Part.com, there's lots of places to go looking.....Just make sure you have the jingle ($$$) before you run up your credit card.....
Just as a point of reference, I've got $7k+ in the LQ4 swap in my Bravada. That does include the engine (6.0L LQ4, $1200), trans (4L80E, $800), Tcase (custom NV146, $1k), harness & PCM programming ($1k), but also includes lots of other odds and ends that add up VERY quickly. Like exhaust, cooling, driveshafts, various bits and pieces to fabricate crossmembers & such.
Basically, don't be suprised by all the little costs that up.
'JustDreamin'
Last edited by 'JustDreamin'; Mar 6, 2007 at 08:11 PM.
Originally Posted by JustDreamin
Hey Boss....
I'd suggest you start doing some serious shopping....
The LS1 motors will probably be the least expensive of the alum LSx motors. The LS6's and LS2's, being higher output and newer (respectively) will cost you a fair bit more....
The truck motors are certainly something to think long and hard about. The iron block alum head motors (the 4.8, 5.3, and 6.0) all weigh the same, and are a bit heavier than the alum block motors (something like 80 lbs). But the advantage is they are much less expensive (like probably half the money you'd spend on an alum block motor). The iron block motors are also stronger, and can be overbored without issues (not so for the alum blocks). And the 6.0L LQ4 is rated at 300 to 325 hp, depending upon specific application, so its about on par with the LS1 in F-bodies, a little short compared to the Vettes....
That said, a big variable is what accessories and such do you need for the conversion? If you need f-body accessories, for example, you might do better (budget-wise) to get a complete takeout (engine trans harness access, etc) rather than piece together the drivetrain (engine from this, trans from that, harness from something else). The piecemeal approach allows you to spend in smaller chunks, which might be very appetizing, but might cost you more in total.
Good luck with the project....
'JustDreamin'
I'd suggest you start doing some serious shopping....
The LS1 motors will probably be the least expensive of the alum LSx motors. The LS6's and LS2's, being higher output and newer (respectively) will cost you a fair bit more....
The truck motors are certainly something to think long and hard about. The iron block alum head motors (the 4.8, 5.3, and 6.0) all weigh the same, and are a bit heavier than the alum block motors (something like 80 lbs). But the advantage is they are much less expensive (like probably half the money you'd spend on an alum block motor). The iron block motors are also stronger, and can be overbored without issues (not so for the alum blocks). And the 6.0L LQ4 is rated at 300 to 325 hp, depending upon specific application, so its about on par with the LS1 in F-bodies, a little short compared to the Vettes....
That said, a big variable is what accessories and such do you need for the conversion? If you need f-body accessories, for example, you might do better (budget-wise) to get a complete takeout (engine trans harness access, etc) rather than piece together the drivetrain (engine from this, trans from that, harness from something else). The piecemeal approach allows you to spend in smaller chunks, which might be very appetizing, but might cost you more in total.
Good luck with the project....
'JustDreamin'
Well written reply as far as the $. It seems like 99% of the members here seem to overlook the 5.3L motor! As far as my costs for the LM7 Supra & L33 Mazda, here is what I recall:
LM7-
Motor: $400 (used from JY, local pickup)
"F" Oil pan/tray/tube/stick: $250 (new from Dal)
"F" Intake/TB/rails: $150 (used from here)
"F" Alt/starter/water pump: $150 (used from JY/here)
Gaskets/misc: $100
Total: $1050
Add $400 for the L33, the remainder is about the same.
I can live w/o the extra 400 ccs for $950. The L33 (I did add a Z06 cam & new springs) is a blast in the RX7.
The best bang for the buck is the 5.3 iron truck motors; I would use a LS1 because by the time you get everything you need for the truck motor the cost won't be all that different from a complete drop out from an Ls1 F-body. If you start "upgrading" any of the motors the costs build rapidly.
there seems to be alot of talk on how the 97-98 blocks can only be maxed to a .005 hone. funny thing is unless you are beating the **** out of the eng. and something goes south in the cyl. why would you ever need to punch it out??? look at everyone who thinks they have a bad *** old school 350 because it's " a corvette (insert Z28 or whatever makes you feel big) 350 punched .030 over and has a oversized cam " really WOW......
90% never need any boring unless you broke a ring and scored the cyl. or for some reason the eng. really did oval the bore. with that out of the way by all means get the latest and greates ls1 you can find for your budget but if a good deal on a 97-98 falls in your lap check it out you don't need to run if it is in good shape and passes a comp. test. not to mention if the deal is good and it comes with most if not ALL the bolt on parts if the motor needs replacing down the road the ls1 short blocks are pretty cheap and easy to come by.
that's what i did
90% never need any boring unless you broke a ring and scored the cyl. or for some reason the eng. really did oval the bore. with that out of the way by all means get the latest and greates ls1 you can find for your budget but if a good deal on a 97-98 falls in your lap check it out you don't need to run if it is in good shape and passes a comp. test. not to mention if the deal is good and it comes with most if not ALL the bolt on parts if the motor needs replacing down the road the ls1 short blocks are pretty cheap and easy to come by.
that's what i did
$4000 for our LS1 & T56 & harness & PCM & driveshaft. Foster Auto parts in Portland OR sent it up to us with no shipping charge. 55kmi on engine; 53kmi on tranny. Both very clean (weren't washed by Foster). Engine being used in "e30-LS1 Buildup!" www.bimmerforums.com
Last edited by Steve VanS; Aug 20, 2007 at 05:35 PM.
Budget and LS1 are mutually exclusive! Did some low-price shopping on Car-part.com in the Midwest region where you live, looks like a limited market, I guess y'all drive better there than here and don't total out as many vehicles 
:
2005 5.3 LM7 Engine:
Chevy Truck Silverado 1500 5.3 RUNS GOOD 124,000 $649 Sharp Auto Parts USA-MN(Stillwater)
2002 LS1 Engine:
Chevy Camaro 5.7L,DYNO TAKEOUT, $1900 Midwest Auto, Truck & Spring USA-MI(Canton)
T56:
2000
Transmission
Chevy Camaro REMANT T56 6SPD NEED TAG WRNTY REMAN $1450 Zumbrota Auto Parts USA-MN(Zumbrota)
So, to sum up the parts (I would not pay this much, but if you need it right away, these are fair prices) :
LM7: $650
Pan/accessories/wiring/manifold/misc: $750
T56: $1450
Total: $2850
Of course, on both motors & the T56, you will probably add your own clutch & exhaust, so this is not figured here.
If you do some shopping & negotiating, you can reduce this figure to well under $2500.
You save quite a bit of $ & lose around 30-40 HP & some TQ. You can, of course, add in a cam & springs to more than make up the power difference. TA 4.8L truck motor responded well to a turbo (542 HP @ 5200 & 603 TQ @ 4400, page 129) in the How to Build High Performance Chevy LS1/LS6 V-8s book written by Will Handzel. Only mods were 42# injectors and 80 psi fuel pressure. Boost was 8 psi.
To answer your bang for the buck question:
If you have a lot of cash to layout up front, go for an LS1/LS6/T56 combo where you don't have to chase after so many parts (you will end up doing this on any swap regardles of how "complete" it is).
If you want to spend a little at a time, consider the truck motors and some performance parts as you can afford them. Shop aggressively for the T56 to save even more.
:2005 5.3 LM7 Engine:
Chevy Truck Silverado 1500 5.3 RUNS GOOD 124,000 $649 Sharp Auto Parts USA-MN(Stillwater)
2002 LS1 Engine:
Chevy Camaro 5.7L,DYNO TAKEOUT, $1900 Midwest Auto, Truck & Spring USA-MI(Canton)
T56:
2000
Transmission
Chevy Camaro REMANT T56 6SPD NEED TAG WRNTY REMAN $1450 Zumbrota Auto Parts USA-MN(Zumbrota)
So, to sum up the parts (I would not pay this much, but if you need it right away, these are fair prices) :
LM7: $650
Pan/accessories/wiring/manifold/misc: $750
T56: $1450
Total: $2850
Of course, on both motors & the T56, you will probably add your own clutch & exhaust, so this is not figured here.
If you do some shopping & negotiating, you can reduce this figure to well under $2500.
You save quite a bit of $ & lose around 30-40 HP & some TQ. You can, of course, add in a cam & springs to more than make up the power difference. TA 4.8L truck motor responded well to a turbo (542 HP @ 5200 & 603 TQ @ 4400, page 129) in the How to Build High Performance Chevy LS1/LS6 V-8s book written by Will Handzel. Only mods were 42# injectors and 80 psi fuel pressure. Boost was 8 psi.
To answer your bang for the buck question:
If you have a lot of cash to layout up front, go for an LS1/LS6/T56 combo where you don't have to chase after so many parts (you will end up doing this on any swap regardles of how "complete" it is).
If you want to spend a little at a time, consider the truck motors and some performance parts as you can afford them. Shop aggressively for the T56 to save even more.
TECH Resident
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 841
Likes: 0
From: Baltimore, MD.
Where'd this thread come from, the graveyard???
Posts previous this weekend were all in MARCH....And the original poster hasn't even been on LS1Tech since MAY....
I think all of you guys have some good advice, but I'm not sure if anybody is listening....
'JustDreamin'
Posts previous this weekend were all in MARCH....And the original poster hasn't even been on LS1Tech since MAY....
I think all of you guys have some good advice, but I'm not sure if anybody is listening....
'JustDreamin'