do a little research and you will end up saving a lot of money. 
The Poorman's M5, E60 w/LS7 V8
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Teching In
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The Poorman's M5, E60 w/LS7 V8 I am new to the forum and wanted to say "hello." I am hoping to meet some hardcore BMW techies here, perhaps even technicians that work at dealerships.
I have a 2005 530i w/6spd, which I upgraded with the ESS TS2 supercharger kit. Based on the ESS ratings, my car should have about 340 hp, but torque is only about 320ft-lb. I love the way the car feels & drives, which I am sure is the reason all BMW owers love their cars. My car has good power but I am looking for 500hp with potential for more. I can not see spending 100k on an M5 just for an extra 150 hp. Especially when I love all the characteristics of my car except the lack of power.
Looking around on the internet, I ran into www.1geezersgarage.com. It got me to thinking, why could I not make a "poor man's" M5 by swapping in an LS6 or LS7 V8 w/6spd into my E60? A new LS7 engine (505hp/470lb-ft) costs about $12k but in a couple of years, there should be engine's with transmissions with less than 30k miles for like $7000. This give me some time to save money, gather information, study wiring diagrams, etc.
For what I have learned thus far, mounting the engine into the car is much less difficult than dealing with the electronics. Obviously, things like the original BMW gages, climate control, and navigation system all have to work after the swap. So, I wanted to see if anyone here understood how the DCS in the E60 interface with the engine and other systems? Is it one single computer which manages the engine control and everything else in the car? Or perhaps you could guide me to a place where I can learn about this stuff.
Cheers!
Mike
I have a 2005 530i w/6spd, which I upgraded with the ESS TS2 supercharger kit. Based on the ESS ratings, my car should have about 340 hp, but torque is only about 320ft-lb. I love the way the car feels & drives, which I am sure is the reason all BMW owers love their cars. My car has good power but I am looking for 500hp with potential for more. I can not see spending 100k on an M5 just for an extra 150 hp. Especially when I love all the characteristics of my car except the lack of power.
Looking around on the internet, I ran into www.1geezersgarage.com. It got me to thinking, why could I not make a "poor man's" M5 by swapping in an LS6 or LS7 V8 w/6spd into my E60? A new LS7 engine (505hp/470lb-ft) costs about $12k but in a couple of years, there should be engine's with transmissions with less than 30k miles for like $7000. This give me some time to save money, gather information, study wiring diagrams, etc.
For what I have learned thus far, mounting the engine into the car is much less difficult than dealing with the electronics. Obviously, things like the original BMW gages, climate control, and navigation system all have to work after the swap. So, I wanted to see if anyone here understood how the DCS in the E60 interface with the engine and other systems? Is it one single computer which manages the engine control and everything else in the car? Or perhaps you could guide me to a place where I can learn about this stuff.
Cheers!
Mike
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jan 2008
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I was thinking about the LS3 crate motor with some mods since it was about half the price of LS7. The crate motor will have everything including the computer, right?
Anyway, I am a long way from buying anything. I have to find out how the BMW engine computer integrates into the car. I will stay with the 3.0L I6, if I can't integrate a new LSx engine fully.
Anyway, I am a long way from buying anything. I have to find out how the BMW engine computer integrates into the car. I will stay with the 3.0L I6, if I can't integrate a new LSx engine fully.
great idea. Cant imagine the nightmare it would be to sort out the electronics. Not to mention how many features you could lose. E60s rely heavily on CAN.
Either way that would make one potent car.
Either way that would make one potent car.
Teching In
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20
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From: Tulsa, OK
Hey Mike,
Good luck on your swap. It'll be an awesome(r) car with an LSX in it.
Have you visited bimmerforums.com? That's a good place to find BMW techs and other fanatics with good knowledge of all things Roundel.
LS1Tech is a great place to learn about various swaps and LSX engines, but heavily slanted to the bowtie side of the equation.
I haven't seen an E60 swap planned or completed. Rob has a running LS1 powered E36 and I see him on both forums often. I've seen E30 swaps, E36 swaps, a few E34s in various stages of completion, 1 E39 swap completed, another planned; so there are several experienced swappers out there. And you've already seen Wayne's "Geezer" E28 swap video series.
You stated one goal of keeping everything looking stock and working on the interior. What are your HP/TQ goals? How do you want to go about making that power? There are stock powerplant options that now go to 620 HP (new ZR1 engine), but as was pointed out earlier there are cheaper ways to make big power from an LSX engine than buying a higher HP crate engine.
If you have the money and want a warranty, go for the new engine. If you want the most bang for the buck, start with an LS1 and mod away. I'm going for 400 RWHP from an LS1 with nothing more than ported heads and a cam.
Welcome to the club!
- Troy
Good luck on your swap. It'll be an awesome(r) car with an LSX in it.
Have you visited bimmerforums.com? That's a good place to find BMW techs and other fanatics with good knowledge of all things Roundel.
LS1Tech is a great place to learn about various swaps and LSX engines, but heavily slanted to the bowtie side of the equation.
I haven't seen an E60 swap planned or completed. Rob has a running LS1 powered E36 and I see him on both forums often. I've seen E30 swaps, E36 swaps, a few E34s in various stages of completion, 1 E39 swap completed, another planned; so there are several experienced swappers out there. And you've already seen Wayne's "Geezer" E28 swap video series.
You stated one goal of keeping everything looking stock and working on the interior. What are your HP/TQ goals? How do you want to go about making that power? There are stock powerplant options that now go to 620 HP (new ZR1 engine), but as was pointed out earlier there are cheaper ways to make big power from an LSX engine than buying a higher HP crate engine.
If you have the money and want a warranty, go for the new engine. If you want the most bang for the buck, start with an LS1 and mod away. I'm going for 400 RWHP from an LS1 with nothing more than ported heads and a cam.
Welcome to the club!
- Troy
sounds like one great swap. as a former bmw tech, im not sure how get all that working without the bmw DME, i wasnt there long enough to really understand the networks in those cars. def would be a better car with a LSx engine in it thoug. good luck and keep us updated!
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Teching In
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I work at a BMW dealership and everything in the newer BMW's are wired incredibly tight. It would be a hell of a time to get all the gauges and so on to work. There is the central DME and that modules that control all the electronic goodies in the car, so doing the swap you would lose pretty much everything. Speedo is based off the left rear wheel speed sensor and run through the DME.
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Teching In
Joined: Jan 2008
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Hey Mike,
Good luck on your swap. It'll be an awesome(r) car with an LSX in it.
Have you visited bimmerforums.com? That's a good place to find BMW techs and other fanatics with good knowledge of all things Roundel.
LS1Tech is a great place to learn about various swaps and LSX engines, but heavily slanted to the bowtie side of the equation.
I haven't seen an E60 swap planned or completed. Rob has a running LS1 powered E36 and I see him on both forums often. I've seen E30 swaps, E36 swaps, a few E34s in various stages of completion, 1 E39 swap completed, another planned; so there are several experienced swappers out there. And you've already seen Wayne's "Geezer" E28 swap video series.
You stated one goal of keeping everything looking stock and working on the interior. What are your HP/TQ goals? How do you want to go about making that power? There are stock powerplant options that now go to 620 HP (new ZR1 engine), but as was pointed out earlier there are cheaper ways to make big power from an LSX engine than buying a higher HP crate engine.
If you have the money and want a warranty, go for the new engine. If you want the most bang for the buck, start with an LS1 and mod away. I'm going for 400 RWHP from an LS1 with nothing more than ported heads and a cam.
Welcome to the club!
- Troy
Good luck on your swap. It'll be an awesome(r) car with an LSX in it.
Have you visited bimmerforums.com? That's a good place to find BMW techs and other fanatics with good knowledge of all things Roundel.
LS1Tech is a great place to learn about various swaps and LSX engines, but heavily slanted to the bowtie side of the equation.
I haven't seen an E60 swap planned or completed. Rob has a running LS1 powered E36 and I see him on both forums often. I've seen E30 swaps, E36 swaps, a few E34s in various stages of completion, 1 E39 swap completed, another planned; so there are several experienced swappers out there. And you've already seen Wayne's "Geezer" E28 swap video series.
You stated one goal of keeping everything looking stock and working on the interior. What are your HP/TQ goals? How do you want to go about making that power? There are stock powerplant options that now go to 620 HP (new ZR1 engine), but as was pointed out earlier there are cheaper ways to make big power from an LSX engine than buying a higher HP crate engine.
If you have the money and want a warranty, go for the new engine. If you want the most bang for the buck, start with an LS1 and mod away. I'm going for 400 RWHP from an LS1 with nothing more than ported heads and a cam.
Welcome to the club!
- Troy
Teching In
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20
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From: Tulsa, OK
I've seen several people get shot down on bimmerforums for asking questions before using the (intermittently functioning) search function of that site, and they can come off as snobs. But I've also seen some real professionals give good advice to DIYers and offer assistance if they're close geographically. There's a relatively new Engine Conversions subforum there (like this one), and I think you'll find the members there very helpful. But when you're blazing trails (and you are with this swap), there's no one with specific experience to help.
The cooling, motor mounts, and transmission mounts will have similarities to other swaps, but will likely require custom fabrication due to differences in your chassis. The wiring challenges will be unique due to the technical advances that the E60 has over the E39 / E36 / E34 / E30 / E28.
Which leads me to BMW wiring diagrams. They are guarded like state secrets as long as the model in question is "current". Or until Bentley publishes them, whichever comes first. It doesn't look like they've published an E60 manual yet:
http://tech.bentleypublishers.com/ca...tegoryName=bmw
Their E34 manual combined with posts on bimmerforums have kept my 1990 with 220,000 miles out of the shop and (for the most part) out of my pocketbook so far!
If you can get the wiring diagrams from your local dealer, great. If not, it may be worth the wait for Bentley to publish a manual for your car. IIRC, though, the Bentley E39 manual didn't have complete wiring diagrams. So there's no guarantees.
Wiring diagrams for LS1s are easier to come by.
HTH,
Troy
The cooling, motor mounts, and transmission mounts will have similarities to other swaps, but will likely require custom fabrication due to differences in your chassis. The wiring challenges will be unique due to the technical advances that the E60 has over the E39 / E36 / E34 / E30 / E28.
Which leads me to BMW wiring diagrams. They are guarded like state secrets as long as the model in question is "current". Or until Bentley publishes them, whichever comes first. It doesn't look like they've published an E60 manual yet:
http://tech.bentleypublishers.com/ca...tegoryName=bmw
Their E34 manual combined with posts on bimmerforums have kept my 1990 with 220,000 miles out of the shop and (for the most part) out of my pocketbook so far!
If you can get the wiring diagrams from your local dealer, great. If not, it may be worth the wait for Bentley to publish a manual for your car. IIRC, though, the Bentley E39 manual didn't have complete wiring diagrams. So there's no guarantees.
Wiring diagrams for LS1s are easier to come by.
HTH,
Troy
Teching In
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20
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From: Tulsa, OK
BTW, Post #1 in this thread and ALL the links in it should be required reading for anyone considering swapping an LS1 into any BMW.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-swaps/825472-bmw-e36-lsx-project-starting-point.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-swaps/825472-bmw-e36-lsx-project-starting-point.html
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 566
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From: Dallas
Plan on double the project time and roughly 2.5 for the costs.
I'm going to hedge and say the E60 will be a electrical nightmare unless you completely strip it and then go back and retroactively do the engine pcm first and foremost. Then you'll get to have fun with integrating the BMW wiring with this.
Then comes the trial and error, you'll be guinea pigging a lot of mounting, engine, and transmission. You'll also get to test the rear end strength on them because of the large torque disparity, let alone a new gear ratio if it's not friendly.
I'm going to hedge and say the E60 will be a electrical nightmare unless you completely strip it and then go back and retroactively do the engine pcm first and foremost. Then you'll get to have fun with integrating the BMW wiring with this.
Then comes the trial and error, you'll be guinea pigging a lot of mounting, engine, and transmission. You'll also get to test the rear end strength on them because of the large torque disparity, let alone a new gear ratio if it's not friendly.
The wiring will be tough (actually not the wiring but sorting out the CAN bus), but that only relates to the gauges, the rest of the systems should be easy to deal with; it is like any other swap.
just briefly looking at them you stand to lose the stock gauges,DSC,stock fuel pump (has some CAN control),A/C compressor control
Best way to go about it break down the electrical part first. I have attached some stuff that might help to start with.
The first is the powertrain CAN schematic.
Second is the instrument cluster wiring diagram
Third is the pin assignments for the cluster
Forth is the pin assignments for DME
EDIt:The files are a pain to attach here. If you have an email I can send the files to, let me know
Last edited by Schitzo; Jan 27, 2008 at 11:44 AM.
CAN is basically a computer network; the gauges take their signals form the network in language form, not just from sensors.
The fuel pump and AC compressor are easy to deal with. DSC is probably impossible and there are several ways to go with the gauges.
The fuel pump and AC compressor are easy to deal with. DSC is probably impossible and there are several ways to go with the gauges.
Teching In
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20
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From: Tulsa, OK
oo, oo, me too pleae Best way to go about it break down the electrical part first. I have attached some stuff that might help to start with.
The first is the powertrain CAN schematic.
Second is the instrument cluster wiring diagram
Third is the pin assignments for the cluster
Forth is the pin assignments for DME
EDIt:The files are a pain to attach here. If you have an email I can send the files to, let me know
The first is the powertrain CAN schematic.
Second is the instrument cluster wiring diagram
Third is the pin assignments for the cluster
Forth is the pin assignments for DME
EDIt:The files are a pain to attach here. If you have an email I can send the files to, let me know
TIA,
Troy
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Hey Mike,
Good luck on your swap. It'll be an awesome(r) car with an LSX in it.
Have you visited bimmerforums.com? That's a good place to find BMW techs and other fanatics with good knowledge of all things Roundel.
LS1Tech is a great place to learn about various swaps and LSX engines, but heavily slanted to the bowtie side of the equation.
I haven't seen an E60 swap planned or completed. Rob has a running LS1 powered E36 and I see him on both forums often. I've seen E30 swaps, E36 swaps, a few E34s in various stages of completion, 1 E39 swap completed, another planned; so there are several experienced swappers out there. And you've already seen Wayne's "Geezer" E28 swap video series.
You stated one goal of keeping everything looking stock and working on the interior. What are your HP/TQ goals? How do you want to go about making that power? There are stock powerplant options that now go to 620 HP (new ZR1 engine), but as was pointed out earlier there are cheaper ways to make big power from an LSX engine than buying a higher HP crate engine.
If you have the money and want a warranty, go for the new engine. If you want the most bang for the buck, start with an LS1 and mod away. I'm going for 400 RWHP from an LS1 with nothing more than ported heads and a cam.
Welcome to the club!
- Troy
Good luck on your swap. It'll be an awesome(r) car with an LSX in it.
Have you visited bimmerforums.com? That's a good place to find BMW techs and other fanatics with good knowledge of all things Roundel.
LS1Tech is a great place to learn about various swaps and LSX engines, but heavily slanted to the bowtie side of the equation.
I haven't seen an E60 swap planned or completed. Rob has a running LS1 powered E36 and I see him on both forums often. I've seen E30 swaps, E36 swaps, a few E34s in various stages of completion, 1 E39 swap completed, another planned; so there are several experienced swappers out there. And you've already seen Wayne's "Geezer" E28 swap video series.
You stated one goal of keeping everything looking stock and working on the interior. What are your HP/TQ goals? How do you want to go about making that power? There are stock powerplant options that now go to 620 HP (new ZR1 engine), but as was pointed out earlier there are cheaper ways to make big power from an LSX engine than buying a higher HP crate engine.
If you have the money and want a warranty, go for the new engine. If you want the most bang for the buck, start with an LS1 and mod away. I'm going for 400 RWHP from an LS1 with nothing more than ported heads and a cam.
Welcome to the club!
- Troy
I am without a hot rod right now, so maybe I need to consider getting another car for a swap. I really like the E39.