F-Body owners that have gone to Corvettes
06-05-2011, 05:20 PM
#62
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After owning a fully built F-body setup for canyon carving ...
I can say that I'm much happier with my bone stock 2004 C5Z06 in many ways.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvette_C5_Z06
Active Handling
In 1998 General Motors developed a system called "Active Handling" which has a stability control feature that uses on-board sensors to measure the vehicle's lateral acceleration, yaw rate, and steering wheel position. These sensors work in conjunction with the vehicle's Anti-lock braking system and traction control system which automatically assist a vehicle's driver in understeering and oversteering situations. The Z06 came standard with the second generation "Active Handling" system. The second generation system added the following substantial improvements to the original system:
New Pressure Modulator
The second-generation Active Handling system utilizes the Bosch version 5.3 hydraulic pressure modulator. Bosch improved this version to become smaller, quieter and more efficient at lower temperatures. The new modulator can operate at -4 °F (-20 °C) resulting in accelerated functioning capacity after cold startups. The pressure sensor originally located in the master cylinder was also integrated into the new pressure modulator.
Dynamic Rear Proportioning
The second-generation Active Handling system utilizes a newly designed dynamic rear brake proportioning system. The new enhancement is a software driven improvement which balances the rear brake pressure electronically thus preventing rear brake bias also known as "Brake Lockup". The new system replaces the physically standard brake proportioning valve and its tubing components thus reducing weight and overall complexity.
Sideslip Angle Rate Control
The second-generation Active Handling system received a major addition in the form of a sideslip angle rate control. This addition is software based and senses a driver's response time to changing vehicle movements during handling maneuvers. The system compensates for driver errors by utilizing the vehicles braking and traction control systems to maintain the stability of the vehicle based upon the parameters programmed by General Motors.
Coefficient of Friction Estimation
The second-generation Active Handling system received another software upgrade in the form of improved calibration algorithms that estimate the friction coefficient of road surfaces. As traction on roads decreases (such as slippery road surfaces), a vehicle is biased towards slipping sideways. The new coefficient estimation takes this traction problem into account and factors it in with the rest of the Active Handling system inputs.
Rear Brake Stability Control
The second-generation Active Handling system also added another software enhancement in the form of a rear brake stability control. This addition releases brake pressure on the inside rear wheel during high lateral acceleration maneuvers. This system assists drivers who do not estimate radius turns correctly during high speed and light braking. The system compensates for driver errors by utilizing the vehicle's braking system thus allowing for a more predictable maneuver while keeping the vehicle on its initial vector.
Better Coordination
As has already been stated the Active Handling system works in conjunction with the Traction Control System. The second generation system continues this relationship but has been modified and refined to target specific rear brake pressures and control engine torque based upon the parameters programmed by General Motors. This modification results in improved acceleration and fewer engine sags.
Competitive Mode
The second-generation Active Handling system incorporated into the Z06 has a unique featured labeled "Competitive Mode". When activated this feature turns the vehicle's Traction Control system off while still employing all the other components of the "Active Handling" system. To enable this feature a driver merely presses down on the Active Handling button for five seconds. This can be done even while the vehicle is in motion.
[edit] Sensors
Steering Angle Sensor: This digital sensor actively monitors the driver's steering inputs and communicates the applied steering wheel angle back to the system. It is accurate to within one degree of steering wheel angle change, and is located inside the steering wheel column.
Yaw-Rate Sensor: This solid-state device utilizes a tiny pair of ceramic tuning forks to measure the actual rate at which the vehicle is pivoting (or yawing) about its center-of-gravity. This data is continuously fed into the Corvette's computer where the yaw rate is compared to the steering angle. Any variation beyond a pre-programmed set of values will result in activation of the appropriate assist feature(s) of the Active Handling System. The yaw-rate sensor on the Corvette is located inside the center console.
Lateral Acceleration Sensor: The lateral accelerometer measures the centrifugal force created during a turn, and is located beneath the passenger seat. The data it provides is weighed against all of the other inputs and is used to calculate whether or not the performance limits of the vehicle are being exceeded under the current speed and traction conditions.
The Second-Generation Active Handling System provides better performance with less perceived intrusion, and is more adept than the original system in controlling the vehicle whenever necessary. The improved agility of the vehicle allows average drivers to perform better during spirited driving, and provides a greater safety margin in emergency situations.
[edit] Summary of Active Handling System Modes
Three different modes are provided in the Active Handling System:
ON — Active Handling is automatically enabled when the vehicle is started. This is also true of the ABS and Traction Control systems.
OFF — Like Traction Control, the Active Handling System may be manually disabled if the driver so desires. This is not true of the ABS, which is always enabled.
COMPETITIVE DRIVING — In this mode, Active Handling and ABS are both enabled, but Traction Control is disabled.
The "OFF" and "COMPETITIVE DRIVING" modes are important features on a high-performance sports car, as skilled drivers may find that some wheelspin and oversteer can be beneficial to their lap times in competitive events. The Corvette's system allows them to operate the car in this fashion when appropriate, although Chevrolet recommends against selecting these modes for street use.[10]
Event.................Performance
0-60 mph.................3.9 sec[5]
0-100 mph.................9.2 sec[6]
0-100-0 mph.................13.56 sec[6]
1/4 Mile.................11.9 sec[3]
Skid Pad.................1.03 G[6]
Top Speed.................171 mph (275 km/h)
Nürburgring Nordschleife Lap Time * 7:56[7]
.
I can say that I'm much happier with my bone stock 2004 C5Z06 in many ways.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvette_C5_Z06
Active Handling
In 1998 General Motors developed a system called "Active Handling" which has a stability control feature that uses on-board sensors to measure the vehicle's lateral acceleration, yaw rate, and steering wheel position. These sensors work in conjunction with the vehicle's Anti-lock braking system and traction control system which automatically assist a vehicle's driver in understeering and oversteering situations. The Z06 came standard with the second generation "Active Handling" system. The second generation system added the following substantial improvements to the original system:
New Pressure Modulator
The second-generation Active Handling system utilizes the Bosch version 5.3 hydraulic pressure modulator. Bosch improved this version to become smaller, quieter and more efficient at lower temperatures. The new modulator can operate at -4 °F (-20 °C) resulting in accelerated functioning capacity after cold startups. The pressure sensor originally located in the master cylinder was also integrated into the new pressure modulator.
Dynamic Rear Proportioning
The second-generation Active Handling system utilizes a newly designed dynamic rear brake proportioning system. The new enhancement is a software driven improvement which balances the rear brake pressure electronically thus preventing rear brake bias also known as "Brake Lockup". The new system replaces the physically standard brake proportioning valve and its tubing components thus reducing weight and overall complexity.
Sideslip Angle Rate Control
The second-generation Active Handling system received a major addition in the form of a sideslip angle rate control. This addition is software based and senses a driver's response time to changing vehicle movements during handling maneuvers. The system compensates for driver errors by utilizing the vehicles braking and traction control systems to maintain the stability of the vehicle based upon the parameters programmed by General Motors.
Coefficient of Friction Estimation
The second-generation Active Handling system received another software upgrade in the form of improved calibration algorithms that estimate the friction coefficient of road surfaces. As traction on roads decreases (such as slippery road surfaces), a vehicle is biased towards slipping sideways. The new coefficient estimation takes this traction problem into account and factors it in with the rest of the Active Handling system inputs.
Rear Brake Stability Control
The second-generation Active Handling system also added another software enhancement in the form of a rear brake stability control. This addition releases brake pressure on the inside rear wheel during high lateral acceleration maneuvers. This system assists drivers who do not estimate radius turns correctly during high speed and light braking. The system compensates for driver errors by utilizing the vehicle's braking system thus allowing for a more predictable maneuver while keeping the vehicle on its initial vector.
Better Coordination
As has already been stated the Active Handling system works in conjunction with the Traction Control System. The second generation system continues this relationship but has been modified and refined to target specific rear brake pressures and control engine torque based upon the parameters programmed by General Motors. This modification results in improved acceleration and fewer engine sags.
Competitive Mode
The second-generation Active Handling system incorporated into the Z06 has a unique featured labeled "Competitive Mode". When activated this feature turns the vehicle's Traction Control system off while still employing all the other components of the "Active Handling" system. To enable this feature a driver merely presses down on the Active Handling button for five seconds. This can be done even while the vehicle is in motion.
[edit] Sensors
Steering Angle Sensor: This digital sensor actively monitors the driver's steering inputs and communicates the applied steering wheel angle back to the system. It is accurate to within one degree of steering wheel angle change, and is located inside the steering wheel column.
Yaw-Rate Sensor: This solid-state device utilizes a tiny pair of ceramic tuning forks to measure the actual rate at which the vehicle is pivoting (or yawing) about its center-of-gravity. This data is continuously fed into the Corvette's computer where the yaw rate is compared to the steering angle. Any variation beyond a pre-programmed set of values will result in activation of the appropriate assist feature(s) of the Active Handling System. The yaw-rate sensor on the Corvette is located inside the center console.
Lateral Acceleration Sensor: The lateral accelerometer measures the centrifugal force created during a turn, and is located beneath the passenger seat. The data it provides is weighed against all of the other inputs and is used to calculate whether or not the performance limits of the vehicle are being exceeded under the current speed and traction conditions.
The Second-Generation Active Handling System provides better performance with less perceived intrusion, and is more adept than the original system in controlling the vehicle whenever necessary. The improved agility of the vehicle allows average drivers to perform better during spirited driving, and provides a greater safety margin in emergency situations.
[edit] Summary of Active Handling System Modes
Three different modes are provided in the Active Handling System:
ON — Active Handling is automatically enabled when the vehicle is started. This is also true of the ABS and Traction Control systems.
OFF — Like Traction Control, the Active Handling System may be manually disabled if the driver so desires. This is not true of the ABS, which is always enabled.
COMPETITIVE DRIVING — In this mode, Active Handling and ABS are both enabled, but Traction Control is disabled.
The "OFF" and "COMPETITIVE DRIVING" modes are important features on a high-performance sports car, as skilled drivers may find that some wheelspin and oversteer can be beneficial to their lap times in competitive events. The Corvette's system allows them to operate the car in this fashion when appropriate, although Chevrolet recommends against selecting these modes for street use.[10]
Event.................Performance
0-60 mph.................3.9 sec[5]
0-100 mph.................9.2 sec[6]
0-100-0 mph.................13.56 sec[6]
1/4 Mile.................11.9 sec[3]
Skid Pad.................1.03 G[6]
Top Speed.................171 mph (275 km/h)
Nürburgring Nordschleife Lap Time * 7:56[7]
.
06-07-2011, 06:24 PM
#65
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Pretty one sided argument here, its REALLY easy to screw up the suspension on Fbodies, the majority of parts out there for them are for drag, which kills handling and ride quality. You can have thousands in suspension but the car could handle and ride like crap because they have all the wrong parts just thrown on the car blindly. Shitty shocks, oversized rear swaybar/undersized front bar, goofy spring rates, binding poly suspension parts, short torque arm, heavy aftermarket rear ends, etc etc.
This couldn't be further from the truth. These cars rattle mainly because of the horrible stock shocks (or cheap replacement shocks, or drag shocks) because they cannot dampen worth a damn and leave the car feeling like its driving on wooden tires, its not the chassis (which is fairly stiff for what its worth). Not to mention the cheap, poorly fitting interior bits. Im not easy on my car by any means, and I noticed no difference from adding SFC's (which were added after shocks and other mods). On the other hand putting Konis on this car made more of a difference than any other mod by a long shot. Rattles all gone, ride quality dramatically improved (think german sports sedan), handling, balance, control, feel all dramatically improved. The car felt like one solid piece.
Setup an fbody correctly (which is really not that hard, or expensive) and you can most definitely walk by stock vettes on a road course. You certainly won't get the feel of IRS, 50/50 weight balance, and 3000lbs but that doesn't mean you cant beat them. That being said the Corvette obviously has way more potential, and is still the better performance car.
This couldn't be further from the truth. These cars rattle mainly because of the horrible stock shocks (or cheap replacement shocks, or drag shocks) because they cannot dampen worth a damn and leave the car feeling like its driving on wooden tires, its not the chassis (which is fairly stiff for what its worth). Not to mention the cheap, poorly fitting interior bits. Im not easy on my car by any means, and I noticed no difference from adding SFC's (which were added after shocks and other mods). On the other hand putting Konis on this car made more of a difference than any other mod by a long shot. Rattles all gone, ride quality dramatically improved (think german sports sedan), handling, balance, control, feel all dramatically improved. The car felt like one solid piece.
Setup an fbody correctly (which is really not that hard, or expensive) and you can most definitely walk by stock vettes on a road course. You certainly won't get the feel of IRS, 50/50 weight balance, and 3000lbs but that doesn't mean you cant beat them. That being said the Corvette obviously has way more potential, and is still the better performance car.
06-07-2011, 09:17 PM
#66
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i just purchased my 07 c6 in february. absolutely love the car! but, i still have the camaro. i have always liked the camaros but really like the vette. i will probably keep the camaro, altho the wife says different lol.
06-07-2011, 11:59 PM
#67
I have said for along time now that the Vette is the better street car and the f-body is the better drag car.
06-08-2011, 01:53 AM
#68
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I'm thinking about making the switch from a 01 ws6 to a c5. My trans am makes to many noises aka rattle box and it makes me not wanna drive it cause I'm OCD about it. I love the looks alot more than a c5 but I want something similiar just more refined. Is 20k enough for a decent low milage 01-04 c5? Or should I just save more and go with a c6. I've driven plenty of both and I really like the c6 more its just alittle over my price range plus I'm only 20 so my insurance might alot higher on a c6 but it'll be my second car.
06-09-2011, 02:14 PM
#69
20K is overkill for a C5 unless you're going for a C5Z.
Personally, I'd go for the C5Z. I've driven both and the C5Z makes me happy in my pants while the base C5 not so much. Both are a pleasure to drive, for sure. Especially coming from a stock F-Body. But I don't think I could ever go to a base C5 after daily driving my C5Z.
Honestly, the C5Z is a fantastic daily driver. Although it a bit more rough on the road, it still feels more refined than the F-body (by a long shot) and it's still a LOT smoother. There's very little body roll in the C5Z as well, while you can still feel body roll in the base/vert.
You can get a decent C5Z with relatively low miles for under $20K. When I bought my first C5Z, I got it for $19.5K with 24K miles on the clock. The car was MINT. Still smelled like new car inside too.
I got my current C5Z for $25K and it had 19K miles on the clock. But it's Millennium Yellow which was a hard thing to find completely stock and in near mint condition. So it was worth the extra money.
C6's are nice, but wouldn't want a base. The minimum C6 for me would a GS with a manual. The base/vert looks too plain. One of the very common complaints about the C6 is the tame/numb feeling. While the C5Z gives you a lot of feedback from the road and lets you know what you're doing, the C6 (even with the Z51) doesn't really give you a lot of feedback and feels more like a fast touring car than a sports car.
It's all personal opinions though. Test drive them both to see.
Personally, I'd go for the C5Z. I've driven both and the C5Z makes me happy in my pants while the base C5 not so much. Both are a pleasure to drive, for sure. Especially coming from a stock F-Body. But I don't think I could ever go to a base C5 after daily driving my C5Z.
Honestly, the C5Z is a fantastic daily driver. Although it a bit more rough on the road, it still feels more refined than the F-body (by a long shot) and it's still a LOT smoother. There's very little body roll in the C5Z as well, while you can still feel body roll in the base/vert.
You can get a decent C5Z with relatively low miles for under $20K. When I bought my first C5Z, I got it for $19.5K with 24K miles on the clock. The car was MINT. Still smelled like new car inside too.
I got my current C5Z for $25K and it had 19K miles on the clock. But it's Millennium Yellow which was a hard thing to find completely stock and in near mint condition. So it was worth the extra money.
C6's are nice, but wouldn't want a base. The minimum C6 for me would a GS with a manual. The base/vert looks too plain. One of the very common complaints about the C6 is the tame/numb feeling. While the C5Z gives you a lot of feedback from the road and lets you know what you're doing, the C6 (even with the Z51) doesn't really give you a lot of feedback and feels more like a fast touring car than a sports car.
It's all personal opinions though. Test drive them both to see.
06-09-2011, 04:33 PM
#70
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I'm thinking about making the switch from a 01 ws6 to a c5. My trans am makes to many noises aka rattle box and it makes me not wanna drive it cause I'm OCD about it. I love the looks alot more than a c5 but I want something similiar just more refined. Is 20k enough for a decent low milage 01-04 c5? Or should I just save more and go with a c6. I've driven plenty of both and I really like the c6 more its just alittle over my price range plus I'm only 20 so my insurance might alot higher on a c6 but it'll be my second car.
This thread doesn't need to rehash the debate about a base C5 vs. Z06. My opinion is that the Z06 is a fantastic package for those looking for a car to do basic bolt ons and just drive. Once you throw major mods into the mix, it isn't worth the premium. Others have differing a opinions. A quick search will turn up threads covering this subject. You really can't go wrong with with either.
As far as the F-body vs. C5 debate goes, unless you prefer the styling of the f-car or need the rear seats, the C5 is by far the better car. The last 2 F-bodies I drove even with the handling modifications done still felt awkward and unbalanced compared to the Vette.
06-10-2011, 05:36 PM
#71
I can agree with just about all of that.
I DEFINITELY agree that the stock C5 suspension does feel like you're driving a Buick. LOL First time I drove my dad's Vert I was a little confused. I expected the car to be less bumpy and have more body roll than my car, but THAT was just ridiculous.
The Z06's suspension and the Z51's suspension are almost identical, as you said. The rear springs on the Z06 are stiffer and correct me if I'm wrong, but the Z06 has *slightly* thicker sway bars. I believe the shocks are the same, until 2004, where the Z06 got better shocks than the Z51.
A lot of people test drive Corvettes expecting them to be handling machines, and then they test drive a non-z51 base and don't understand what the hype is about.
Definitely test drive everything you can get your hands on. A C6 base, C6 Z51, C5 base, C5 Z51, and most importantly (in my opinion) a C5 Z06. The C6 Z51 is *supposed* to be on par with the suspension of the C5 Z06, but you still lose the feedback you get from the C5.
I DEFINITELY agree that the stock C5 suspension does feel like you're driving a Buick. LOL First time I drove my dad's Vert I was a little confused. I expected the car to be less bumpy and have more body roll than my car, but THAT was just ridiculous.
The Z06's suspension and the Z51's suspension are almost identical, as you said. The rear springs on the Z06 are stiffer and correct me if I'm wrong, but the Z06 has *slightly* thicker sway bars. I believe the shocks are the same, until 2004, where the Z06 got better shocks than the Z51.
A lot of people test drive Corvettes expecting them to be handling machines, and then they test drive a non-z51 base and don't understand what the hype is about.
Definitely test drive everything you can get your hands on. A C6 base, C6 Z51, C5 base, C5 Z51, and most importantly (in my opinion) a C5 Z06. The C6 Z51 is *supposed* to be on par with the suspension of the C5 Z06, but you still lose the feedback you get from the C5.
06-11-2011, 11:48 AM
#72
Without going into detail I went from a 00 FRC to a 02 Turbo Camaro. Thought my plans for a high hp street car would be a little easier on the wallet with a F body. But honestly I could not wait to get back into a vette.....Absolutely no comparison from the looks you get to the performance and the ride!
06-15-2011, 07:59 PM
#76
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traded in my 2000 ws6 for my 01 z06. i love the vette dont get me wrong, but there is just something about that trans am thats hard to beat! lol my next car=trans am
06-15-2011, 08:06 PM
#77
They didn't own Z06s. I can tell right away.
I've driven LOTS of Corvettes, stock and not-so stock. I've driven 580RWHP Z06s and my dad even has a bone stock C5 Vert.
Let me tell you that the difference between a stock coupe/vert and a stock C5 Z is immense. The suspension, steering, sound and raw feel of the car is so unbelievably different. The Z06 feels like a race car. It sounds like a race car. You can feel everything in the road and the car gives you as much feedback as you can take. On the other hand, the Coupe and Vert are the complete opposite. The wheel firmness is not nearly the same, the suspension is a far too soft (for me), and you can feel body roll in them. They're definitely not the same car.
And, yes, as MY99TAWS6 mentioned, the HUD is bitchen. I wouldn't want a car without one.
I've driven LOTS of Corvettes, stock and not-so stock. I've driven 580RWHP Z06s and my dad even has a bone stock C5 Vert.
Let me tell you that the difference between a stock coupe/vert and a stock C5 Z is immense. The suspension, steering, sound and raw feel of the car is so unbelievably different. The Z06 feels like a race car. It sounds like a race car. You can feel everything in the road and the car gives you as much feedback as you can take. On the other hand, the Coupe and Vert are the complete opposite. The wheel firmness is not nearly the same, the suspension is a far too soft (for me), and you can feel body roll in them. They're definitely not the same car.
And, yes, as MY99TAWS6 mentioned, the HUD is bitchen. I wouldn't want a car without one.
Actually one of them was a C5 Z06 but to each their own, everybody is different and what one guy thinks isn't going to be the same as the next.
06-29-2011, 10:26 AM
#79
I finally broke down and bought a 06 Z51. Now what got me there is I have driven a zr1 with exhaust and a pulley I must say goddam! pulls like a train and fun. The down side was it lack personality, and ******* expensive. I dont like the breaks they dont work cold and the blower whine is aliitle annoying. Now I driven a c6 zo6 with a huge cam and exhaust. That car was ******* wicked. the sound of a pissed off 427 at 7.3 k is sexy as hell. that z06 was the ****, shifting and it just pulled and pulled. Now the 08 c6 z51 I test drove was nice also handle great and I had the salesmen shitting bricks. I will say this a 2004 c5 zo6 feels stronger than a ls3 I guess its in the weight but the c5z is a gocart with a v8 point it where ya wanna go and your there. Im coming from a 800+ hp z28 to a bone stock c6 Im enthuesd about it but it wont have the personality my z28 did.
07-16-2011, 02:02 PM
#80
Not even close I know the original poster has already made up his mind on the issue, but I figured that I would throw my two cents into the mix for any others currently in his situation since I am currently an owner of both a 2002 base C5 coupe and a 2002 Camaro SS convertible. Both similarly modded and M6 of course.
I tormented myself for quite some time over whether or not to sell my beloved SS and "upgrade" to a C5, especially since the prices on them have come down so much recently. A few weeks ago, thanks to a deployment to Afghanistan, I was able to afford to buy a C5 outright and still keep my SS which made the decision much easier.
I have seen people argue on this thread that the jump from a nice F-body to a base C5 coupe isn't worth the hassle, and that couldn't be further from the truth - my C5 is head and shoulders better than my F-body in just about every possible category. It is far more comfortable (felt better after a 12 hour drive in it than I did after 2 hours in the SS), the build quality is outstanding (very tight with no squeaks/rattles), handling and braking are obviously a night and day difference, and it's generally much smoother and more refined while still retaining a rawness that makes it a blast to drive aggressively. That's not to say that I don't still enjoy driving my SS - it has an unrefined charm that still makes it fun to take out every once in a while. However, minus the novelty of it's ruggedness and maybe a stoplight drag race from a dig, any comparison between the two is not even close.
There is a reason that the Corvette has always been GM's flagship sports car, and this is coming from a die-hard F-body fan who daily drove his SS for almost six years.
I tormented myself for quite some time over whether or not to sell my beloved SS and "upgrade" to a C5, especially since the prices on them have come down so much recently. A few weeks ago, thanks to a deployment to Afghanistan, I was able to afford to buy a C5 outright and still keep my SS which made the decision much easier.
I have seen people argue on this thread that the jump from a nice F-body to a base C5 coupe isn't worth the hassle, and that couldn't be further from the truth - my C5 is head and shoulders better than my F-body in just about every possible category. It is far more comfortable (felt better after a 12 hour drive in it than I did after 2 hours in the SS), the build quality is outstanding (very tight with no squeaks/rattles), handling and braking are obviously a night and day difference, and it's generally much smoother and more refined while still retaining a rawness that makes it a blast to drive aggressively. That's not to say that I don't still enjoy driving my SS - it has an unrefined charm that still makes it fun to take out every once in a while. However, minus the novelty of it's ruggedness and maybe a stoplight drag race from a dig, any comparison between the two is not even close.
There is a reason that the Corvette has always been GM's flagship sports car, and this is coming from a die-hard F-body fan who daily drove his SS for almost six years.