Cartek 4x H/c = 10.41 @ 131.15
03-27-2007, 01:32 PM
#81
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Originally Posted by Big Mike
Ease up a little Alex. You are getting very defensive This is only a debate, we can all do without the personal attacks.
but its so much fun Mike!
03-27-2007, 01:32 PM
#82
Correction factors for DA and altitude?
We all agree that a substantially lower DA increases power output.
We all agree that a higher power output can/usually does hurt traction both at launch and during shifts.
We all agree that wind conditions can (positively or negatively) affect track times/MPH.
How do these "correction factors" that try to correlate/equalize one car running in TX (or FL or NC or....) to one running in NJ, MD, PA etc account for
1) the traction lost due to the car making more 'DA power' and ALSO the traction GAINS that the one running in supposedly worse air (remember, less power) gets
2) headwind/tailwind
3) driver error
4) overall track prep
Temps/DA obviously play a role in track times but let's not get carried away with the absolutes and finite results. I have found that there are even slight variances in the quality of air among even two similar very low DA days, I've run consistenly quicker/faster at -1050 feet than I did at -1800 feet all else (car set up, sixty foots, raceweight etc.) being equal. If simply running in negative DA were the sole reason why a car went faster then there is no way that a naturally aspirated car should go slower at 750 feet lower right?
SO many factors contribute to what can be called good air and to good track results, there is no way a simple correction can accurately account for all of them.
As for WS6 T/A's passes, I know what the air was like here last Wednesday and I was actually there when he ran the 10.47 on a warm Saturday, I too was shocked that he ran ETs/MPH so close together (on a worse sixty foot no less) even though the difference in DA was so big.
Congrats again Alex.
We all agree that a substantially lower DA increases power output.
We all agree that a higher power output can/usually does hurt traction both at launch and during shifts.
We all agree that wind conditions can (positively or negatively) affect track times/MPH.
How do these "correction factors" that try to correlate/equalize one car running in TX (or FL or NC or....) to one running in NJ, MD, PA etc account for
1) the traction lost due to the car making more 'DA power' and ALSO the traction GAINS that the one running in supposedly worse air (remember, less power) gets
2) headwind/tailwind
3) driver error
4) overall track prep
Temps/DA obviously play a role in track times but let's not get carried away with the absolutes and finite results. I have found that there are even slight variances in the quality of air among even two similar very low DA days, I've run consistenly quicker/faster at -1050 feet than I did at -1800 feet all else (car set up, sixty foots, raceweight etc.) being equal. If simply running in negative DA were the sole reason why a car went faster then there is no way that a naturally aspirated car should go slower at 750 feet lower right?
SO many factors contribute to what can be called good air and to good track results, there is no way a simple correction can accurately account for all of them.
As for WS6 T/A's passes, I know what the air was like here last Wednesday and I was actually there when he ran the 10.47 on a warm Saturday, I too was shocked that he ran ETs/MPH so close together (on a worse sixty foot no less) even though the difference in DA was so big.
Congrats again Alex.
03-27-2007, 01:53 PM
#83
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Originally Posted by silverbeast
You cant tell him ****... he already knows everything
I think that enviornmental factors DO play a role in E/T's- but not as pronounced as is often portrayed here. Again, soooo many factors (gas, tune, traction, reaction times, driver ability, power, torque, and even little things like motor oil- can make a difference.
Every once in a while, it ALL comes together.. as it has for Alex and Pete.
When I worked 4-12pm and would drive my Formula home, the air would be exactly what the car wanted.. you could literally feel it in 2nd gear.
This is probably annoying to Alex, Pete and Big Mike (all have/had Cartek set-ups) and many others who would post up #'s only to hear the "mineshaft-air" caveat.
Ohhh.. and Alex..Roman Helmet?!?! Don't tell me- I don't want to know.
03-27-2007, 01:59 PM
#84
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Originally Posted by WS6TransAm01
Really? Oh I bed to differ. And what should I recognize? You think the ONLY reason the car went so fast is because of air? Not because of my driving? Not because of CARTEK ability to make an awesome H/C setup?
You're right... it's all air...
You're right... it's all air...
Originally Posted by J-Rod
Again, I'd like to be clear.
I do not doubt for one second that your car is a very strong very fast car.
I do not doubt for one second that you are a good driver.
I do not doubt for one second that your ran the numbers you posted up.
I do not doubt for one second that your car is a very strong very fast car.
I do not doubt for one second that you are a good driver.
I do not doubt for one second that your ran the numbers you posted up.
Originally Posted by WS6TransAm01
That is the dumbest thing I ever heard off. That is the same as when silverbeast said "I know I only have a 3" ***** and in America that is tiny, but in China im HUGE!"
Really? SO the weather station of both Englishtown and up to 3 other racers are all off the same amount... J-Rob, you must have the only calibrated weather station in the whole of the United States...
I've only seen Cartek cars in person one time. I will cite Brett's car as an exmaple. At that time I believe he had gone a best of a 10.55 in negative DA conditions similar to the one we see you ran in. He came to a track where the DA started at around 0 and climbed in to the slightly positive ranges (I don't have the weather data handy, but I can get it if need be). Anyhow, I think he made approximately 30 passes that day. His best passes were in the 10.70 range.
His car ran strong, he was a fantastic driver, he drove his car well. But, his car didn't run the same record times it did in better weather.
Does that negate his 10.55, No.
Does it somehow diminish his accomplishments, No.
Point is, weather plays a role, good bad or otherwise...
Again, you can choose to disagree with me if you like. We may simply have to agree to disagree on this.
03-27-2007, 04:23 PM
#85
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Originally Posted by LS1LT1
SO many factors contribute to what can be called good air and to good track results, there is no way a simple correction can accurately account for all of them.
Good discussion here, for the most part.
Bob
03-27-2007, 05:50 PM
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Congrats again Alex. Just for the record, I think something similar happened to Matt with the GTO. They all said he wouldnt duplicate his magical Atco times in FL etc. He may not have quite duplicated his 10 second pass, but he did DRIVE his car to FLORIDA and WIN the event.
03-28-2007, 11:00 AM
#89
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Originally Posted by tektrans
I'd like to mention that Alex's #'s were run through mufflers that passed the tough Etown noise restrictions.
03-28-2007, 08:18 PM
#91
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Originally Posted by WS6TransAm01
That does not matter Mark, what matters is that we ran in negative DA air, and apparently CARTEK has the monopoly on good air, no one else can run in it.
Thank God I went to Cartek then! I wouldn't wanna miss out on that good air. 
03-31-2007, 12:30 AM
#93
Congrats. I concur on Richmond gears having no place on a street car and crap. 4.56 gears + sticky tires...I'm sure you had fun giving 2nd gear throttle blip demos to friends!!! 30-70 mph must FEEL better than 800-1000+ hp twin turbo LSx buildups with stock gear ratios.
03-31-2007, 08:57 AM
#94
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Originally Posted by Q
So..did he run the time or not? If he did...then great!
Of coarse I ran the time....
I'm Alex
03-31-2007, 08:59 AM
#95
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Originally Posted by defcon(ls)1
Congrats. I concur on Richmond gears having no place on a street car and crap. 4.56 gears + sticky tires...I'm sure you had fun giving 2nd gear throttle blip demos to friends!!! 30-70 mph must FEEL better than 800-1000+ hp twin turbo LSx buildups with stock gear ratios.
I don't know exactly why but with all the LSx cars I have driven, on the street, 3rd gear feels the best. Pull like a freight train!
03-31-2007, 08:06 PM
#96
Originally Posted by J-Rod
Congrats on your results.
But I will say that Negative DA has a huge effect on power output. Its simple physics. Thats not to take anything away from your time or you car's performance. But I would hope we can all agree that negative DA is "free HP".
Also, for a handheld station to read correctly it needs to be calibrated properly. Many folks don't calibrate their stations. That may be fine as long as you use the same station every time, you can keep your tuneup the same. But, if you are looking at a correction factor, it throws it off. Your -800 number seems rather conservative based on the relevant data.
In my experience you can't say its all temp. Its a combination. It all comes down to dense, cool, dry air makes big power, period. Atco has the advantage of having crazy barometric pressure unlike any area in the U.S. that I've raced. Cold damp (high humidity) air won't make good power. Cold dry air with no barometric pressure (like in Denver) won't make good power either. High baro is free supercharging.
We get "good" air in Houston, but nothing like Atco. We might see "freak" winter weather where we get 30.3 or 30.4. If you couple that with a North wind to keep the humidty down we can see good negative DA. We keep meticulous logs, and run a weather station as well.
If you get mid 40's and 30.6 or 30.7 that is halfway dry, that is "mineshaft" air. Keep in mind that DA like can yield +8-9% more crank HP. If you don't believe that, go dyno a car on a dyno jet and compare the uncorrected numbers over a zero, or positive DA day. We're talking +40-50HP I'm not saying your car doesn't perform well, but the weather does have some effect.
If you want a correlating event, why do all the Cartek cars that set a record do so in weather like that? Why were folks setting records and personal bests? Simple physics. There have been several track days or good weather days where cars at Atco have put down some incredible numbers. Its not to say the cars didn't run the number. Its just seems to me folks want to ignore the fact the weather has some effect on it.
As for the car running the same speed in different air. Wheelspin will increase trap speed.
Anyway, congrats on your combo. I'd expect you have some more time left in the car, and we can expect to see you improve even more. Best of luck to you on running even lower Et's....
But I will say that Negative DA has a huge effect on power output. Its simple physics. Thats not to take anything away from your time or you car's performance. But I would hope we can all agree that negative DA is "free HP".
Also, for a handheld station to read correctly it needs to be calibrated properly. Many folks don't calibrate their stations. That may be fine as long as you use the same station every time, you can keep your tuneup the same. But, if you are looking at a correction factor, it throws it off. Your -800 number seems rather conservative based on the relevant data.
In my experience you can't say its all temp. Its a combination. It all comes down to dense, cool, dry air makes big power, period. Atco has the advantage of having crazy barometric pressure unlike any area in the U.S. that I've raced. Cold damp (high humidity) air won't make good power. Cold dry air with no barometric pressure (like in Denver) won't make good power either. High baro is free supercharging.
We get "good" air in Houston, but nothing like Atco. We might see "freak" winter weather where we get 30.3 or 30.4. If you couple that with a North wind to keep the humidty down we can see good negative DA. We keep meticulous logs, and run a weather station as well.
If you get mid 40's and 30.6 or 30.7 that is halfway dry, that is "mineshaft" air. Keep in mind that DA like can yield +8-9% more crank HP. If you don't believe that, go dyno a car on a dyno jet and compare the uncorrected numbers over a zero, or positive DA day. We're talking +40-50HP I'm not saying your car doesn't perform well, but the weather does have some effect.
If you want a correlating event, why do all the Cartek cars that set a record do so in weather like that? Why were folks setting records and personal bests? Simple physics. There have been several track days or good weather days where cars at Atco have put down some incredible numbers. Its not to say the cars didn't run the number. Its just seems to me folks want to ignore the fact the weather has some effect on it.
As for the car running the same speed in different air. Wheelspin will increase trap speed.
Anyway, congrats on your combo. I'd expect you have some more time left in the car, and we can expect to see you improve even more. Best of luck to you on running even lower Et's....
Last edited by robz*; 04-01-2007 at 08:44 AM.
03-31-2007, 08:08 PM
#97
Originally Posted by silverbeast
Look needle dick, i didnt say your times werent real. i said you will not repeat those runs in the air we race in 90% of the time. I wish our track had that kind of DA but it dosent. I also said congrats on your setup, but as for me coming up north and running my car...maybe i will get a chance to one day. If i do i will bet my car runs the best it ever has.good day
Last edited by robz*; 04-01-2007 at 08:44 AM.
03-31-2007, 08:17 PM
#98
Originally Posted by silverbeast
I dont give a **** where you live or what times you run. I was just trying to help you understand the affects of good air verses bad air. Since you were downplaying as having no effect or not much at all. But you will find out yourself. We will see if your one of the dumbasses that post up in the middle of the summer saying " somethings wrong with my car, its slowed down 3-4 mph whats wrong??
Last edited by robz*; 04-01-2007 at 08:44 AM.
04-01-2007, 08:53 AM
#99
Originally Posted by WS6TransAm01
No I made them aaaaaaaaaaal up
Of coarse I ran the time....
I'm Alex
Of coarse I ran the time....
I'm Alex
I guess that proves it was a great run if the guy in the other lane(same day,same time,same conditions) has a 427 heads and cam c6Z with 100shot and ran a similar time. He's not Cartek so his car is not allowed the great air.
04-02-2007, 03:07 PM
#100
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Originally Posted by robz*
I guess that proves it was a great run if the guy in the other lane(same day,same time,same conditions) has a 427 heads and cam c6Z with 100shot and ran a similar time. He's not Cartek so his car is not allowed the great air.