Torque arm question
01-05-2009, 12:04 PM
#21
Outlaw that's the issue I'm having, I'm on a 3.5 inch dual exhaust with a pair of 44 series mufflers to meet Etown's noise rules, which it does with no problems, so that I can't really just ditch as much as I'd like to.
Believe me, the tq arm gets changed from the bmr stuff I have on the car a madman one is the only thing I am even considering. I had a spohn, it worked o.k. but I was never really thrilled with the results.
I went to a BMR and attached it to the TH400 crossmember they sell, and it's worked out pretty good, but I still feel like there's a good bit left that I'm not seeing.
As it is, this summer I will be ordering the full afco setup in an attempt to get the car leaving better, I am sure that Brain's valving that he does with them will be better then the 12 way qa1 rears and r series front shocks I have been running, but while I"m changing things if there's something to be gained by swapping the tq arm I will do that at the same time.
I'm gonna leave the 12 bolt in the car and probably just narrow it and at this point I don't ever see that becoming a weak link for what I want to do so this will be the last tq arm I ever buy for the car, if/when I change it.
Having the ability to pick Brain's brain some too, is of as much or more value then the parts themselves I think, just the advise that came with the travel limiters got the car under control and leaving consistantly, now it's just a matter of getting the thing where it should/can be.
Believe me, the tq arm gets changed from the bmr stuff I have on the car a madman one is the only thing I am even considering. I had a spohn, it worked o.k. but I was never really thrilled with the results.
I went to a BMR and attached it to the TH400 crossmember they sell, and it's worked out pretty good, but I still feel like there's a good bit left that I'm not seeing.
As it is, this summer I will be ordering the full afco setup in an attempt to get the car leaving better, I am sure that Brain's valving that he does with them will be better then the 12 way qa1 rears and r series front shocks I have been running, but while I"m changing things if there's something to be gained by swapping the tq arm I will do that at the same time.
I'm gonna leave the 12 bolt in the car and probably just narrow it and at this point I don't ever see that becoming a weak link for what I want to do so this will be the last tq arm I ever buy for the car, if/when I change it.
Having the ability to pick Brain's brain some too, is of as much or more value then the parts themselves I think, just the advise that came with the travel limiters got the car under control and leaving consistantly, now it's just a matter of getting the thing where it should/can be.
01-05-2009, 01:17 PM
#23
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car's doing consistant low 1.4x, and will occasionally when I"m lucky see a 1.37 to 1.39, but only on a really good day.
13.5 to 1 402, makes about 450 to the tires plus a 150 hit right off the transbrake, 3350 lbs.
I'm not sure if I'm at the limit of what I should be seeing without taking any more weight out or without adding more power, but both are gonna happen (anohter 300 lbs out, and probably put an intake on that should pick it up 25 hp or so as well as a fogger with another 100 hp of jet) before the car gets run again. Double adjustable afco's will be on the car, and possibly a tq arm change too.
13.5 to 1 402, makes about 450 to the tires plus a 150 hit right off the transbrake, 3350 lbs.
I'm not sure if I'm at the limit of what I should be seeing without taking any more weight out or without adding more power, but both are gonna happen (anohter 300 lbs out, and probably put an intake on that should pick it up 25 hp or so as well as a fogger with another 100 hp of jet) before the car gets run again. Double adjustable afco's will be on the car, and possibly a tq arm change too.
Which hole in the relocation bracket are you using? shoot me a PM if you like ...
01-05-2009, 04:04 PM
#26
I have a chromoly bmr adjustable stock style one attached to a BMR th400 corssmember with tq arm relocation.
I've tried it all the way up, and 2 holes from the bottom, it's on the 4h hole up right now.
It's been all over the place and I haven't seen a huge change moving up and down like I would have thought I was going to.
BMR weld on relocation brackets on the rear, in the first hole down from stock, car's about 3/4 of an inch lower in the back then stock, front ride height is 26.5 thru the center of the wheel to the top of the wheel well, front travel limiters at full loose, which is about 2 inches of decreased travel, rear shocks on 5, I've tried them looser but I think the car's squatting too much as it is, stiffer made the car start doing a little "kick in one direction or another at the hit and spin a little too. front shocks are on 4, if I take the limiters off with them on 4 it will go on the bumper though, sig picture as proof of that.
Wolfe drag bar, car leaves level as can be so I don't think there's an issue there, all the pictures I have of the car have it leaving as level as can be, hell the drag mark across the bumper is even.
I know it's a fine balance, but I haven't been able to get the car to either A go on the bumper, or B spin and squat too much IMO.
I want the thing to leave like a promod, pull the tires no more then a foot and move foreward, not the rear end squatting like mad, or standing up like crazy.
I've tried it all the way up, and 2 holes from the bottom, it's on the 4h hole up right now.
It's been all over the place and I haven't seen a huge change moving up and down like I would have thought I was going to.
BMR weld on relocation brackets on the rear, in the first hole down from stock, car's about 3/4 of an inch lower in the back then stock, front ride height is 26.5 thru the center of the wheel to the top of the wheel well, front travel limiters at full loose, which is about 2 inches of decreased travel, rear shocks on 5, I've tried them looser but I think the car's squatting too much as it is, stiffer made the car start doing a little "kick in one direction or another at the hit and spin a little too. front shocks are on 4, if I take the limiters off with them on 4 it will go on the bumper though, sig picture as proof of that.
Wolfe drag bar, car leaves level as can be so I don't think there's an issue there, all the pictures I have of the car have it leaving as level as can be, hell the drag mark across the bumper is even.
I know it's a fine balance, but I haven't been able to get the car to either A go on the bumper, or B spin and squat too much IMO.
I want the thing to leave like a promod, pull the tires no more then a foot and move foreward, not the rear end squatting like mad, or standing up like crazy.
01-05-2009, 04:08 PM
#27
AT the power level you are at JL the car isnt going to leave like a promod. You will have to carry the tires out. These cars dont work unless the nose is in the air at lower hp numbers.
As for Outlaw1 there are options on a crossmember for my arm. You will have to assemble it but it can be made to work with the subframes you have.
As for Outlaw1 there are options on a crossmember for my arm. You will have to assemble it but it can be made to work with the subframes you have.
01-05-2009, 04:22 PM
#28
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it takes lots of power to carry that driver side tire about 1"-2" of the ground... brady's car is an example of that...
if you carry the bottom of the tire about knee high your doing good just make sure when it comes down it doesnt bounce
if you carry the bottom of the tire about knee high your doing good just make sure when it comes down it doesnt bounce
01-05-2009, 04:23 PM
#29
Another 300 lbs out and add probably 150 hp worth of jet, that's where it will be when I get the thing back out, probably with another 75 motor hp as well.
Still child's play in the HP department I know compared to the **** that you usually deal with Brian.
I don't mind having the nose in the air, problem is the car doesn't pull it and ride it out, it either wants to spin and squat, or it immediately pops the nose a foot and a half in the air and the rear end drives right under the front tires, bumper on the ground.
I know neither one are right, I just don't know what it's gonna take to balance it out... probably the afco's to start.
Still child's play in the HP department I know compared to the **** that you usually deal with Brian.
I don't mind having the nose in the air, problem is the car doesn't pull it and ride it out, it either wants to spin and squat, or it immediately pops the nose a foot and a half in the air and the rear end drives right under the front tires, bumper on the ground.
I know neither one are right, I just don't know what it's gonna take to balance it out... probably the afco's to start.
01-05-2009, 05:00 PM
#31
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My suspension setup is a bit different than JL's..... not sure how our power levels are.... My car made 811 RWHP with a 300 shot and we're planning on 400 hp soon.
My car went up on the bumper BAD last time out. 9psi pre burnout in the slicks, travel limiters were I believe in the middle hole. Maybe letting the front tires travel like 1-2"... Spohn torque arm with a fixed front attached to the Spohn G-load brace/driveshaft loop combo thing. Double adjustable rear shocks from Varishock, Fronts are QA1 R Series set at 7. BMR Xtreme swaybar, Madman Outlaw LCA's, BMR relo brackets in the middle hole (one down from stock)... Pinion angle is -1. Car has been scaled to Madmans specs (Thanks BTW)....
We toyed with suspension settings last time out, on motor car barely picked up the fronts with the limiters set 1 hole from full loose. Tried out a 150 shot like that, had to pedal the car to keep the front down. Went 1.38 60'. Still couldnt' leave with everything she had. Next run we tightened the limiters in front one hole (they were now in the middle).... Left ont he 2 step at 4000 RPM. Nitrous set to come on a 3500RPMS with transbrake button released. Got on the t-brake, launched and it went straight to the bumper. Leaving on the 150 shot and brining in another 150 1.5 seconds later... never got to that point as the car went straight vertical before the whole 300hp ever got into the motor....
And my tuner and I are pulling timing to limit power down low trying to kill the wheelstands.... Base timing on motor is 32. 150 shot timing is 24 degrees. We're leaving the line at an additional retard of 12 (so timing is 12 degrees total) and feeding it back in over 3.0 seconds.... It doesn't matter. 24 degrees or 5 my car seems to love it either way.
I've contemplated a few things...
1. Wheelie bars (could save me thousands in potential wheelstand damage AND allow me to leave with every ounce of HP the motor will handle)... I don't race in a class that outlaws wheelie bars so that's not an issue...
2. moving the window for n2o higher than launch RPM. Currently at 3500. I launch at 4K so once the brake is released it's on.... I'm thinking that moving it to like 4300 would allow the car to leave initially on motor, hit the tires, settle down and then the spray will come on. But that will obviously have a negative effect on 60' times and even worse 1/4 mile ET's...
3. Adding weight to the front via some type of weight box. Talked to some outlaw drag radial guys and they routinely have been adding ballast to the car out in front of the core support.... it's an idea i suppose...
4. Different torque arm allowing me to adjust IC to soften the hit on the tires.... but then i'm back to square one having to fabricate something "around" my exhaust. Like Brian said i'm sure it can be done but i'm already running out of room under there as it is...
I don't mind riding out wheelies with the tires a foot in the air for 200'...... which is what makes me lean towards those wheelie bars....
My car went up on the bumper BAD last time out. 9psi pre burnout in the slicks, travel limiters were I believe in the middle hole. Maybe letting the front tires travel like 1-2"... Spohn torque arm with a fixed front attached to the Spohn G-load brace/driveshaft loop combo thing. Double adjustable rear shocks from Varishock, Fronts are QA1 R Series set at 7. BMR Xtreme swaybar, Madman Outlaw LCA's, BMR relo brackets in the middle hole (one down from stock)... Pinion angle is -1. Car has been scaled to Madmans specs (Thanks BTW)....
We toyed with suspension settings last time out, on motor car barely picked up the fronts with the limiters set 1 hole from full loose. Tried out a 150 shot like that, had to pedal the car to keep the front down. Went 1.38 60'. Still couldnt' leave with everything she had. Next run we tightened the limiters in front one hole (they were now in the middle).... Left ont he 2 step at 4000 RPM. Nitrous set to come on a 3500RPMS with transbrake button released. Got on the t-brake, launched and it went straight to the bumper. Leaving on the 150 shot and brining in another 150 1.5 seconds later... never got to that point as the car went straight vertical before the whole 300hp ever got into the motor....
And my tuner and I are pulling timing to limit power down low trying to kill the wheelstands.... Base timing on motor is 32. 150 shot timing is 24 degrees. We're leaving the line at an additional retard of 12 (so timing is 12 degrees total) and feeding it back in over 3.0 seconds.... It doesn't matter. 24 degrees or 5 my car seems to love it either way.
I've contemplated a few things...
1. Wheelie bars (could save me thousands in potential wheelstand damage AND allow me to leave with every ounce of HP the motor will handle)... I don't race in a class that outlaws wheelie bars so that's not an issue...
2. moving the window for n2o higher than launch RPM. Currently at 3500. I launch at 4K so once the brake is released it's on.... I'm thinking that moving it to like 4300 would allow the car to leave initially on motor, hit the tires, settle down and then the spray will come on. But that will obviously have a negative effect on 60' times and even worse 1/4 mile ET's...
3. Adding weight to the front via some type of weight box. Talked to some outlaw drag radial guys and they routinely have been adding ballast to the car out in front of the core support.... it's an idea i suppose...
4. Different torque arm allowing me to adjust IC to soften the hit on the tires.... but then i'm back to square one having to fabricate something "around" my exhaust. Like Brian said i'm sure it can be done but i'm already running out of room under there as it is...
I don't mind riding out wheelies with the tires a foot in the air for 200'...... which is what makes me lean towards those wheelie bars....
Last edited by OutlawZ; 01-05-2009 at 05:08 PM.
01-05-2009, 05:07 PM
#32
I have always been told that high hp cars need the longer arm. It is the under powered cars that need the help of a short tq arm. I have also heard that 600 is the limit for a short arm. This is info I recieved from a sponsor on here before, hope it helps.
01-05-2009, 07:29 PM
#35
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Wolf I would get the mad man if you didnt have the exhaust issue. His stuff is as good as it comes. But you want to clear the floor look at the wolf i run 4 inch full exhaust , then when i went to turbo i run 5 inch back to the rear edge of the door .Plus i have had the bar on the car for 4 years now Somthing you may wont to look at. I pull 1.30 to 1.33 every pass . Have went 5.20 all on radials. www.wolferacecraft.com
