ACs single digit build thread!
03-11-2011, 09:41 AM
#144
Jl, I also prefer a bolt on throttle body over the elbow when looking for all out performance but It really depends on the individuals build purpose.
As to your comment against spray bars. No disrespect but you could not be anyfurther from the facts on this one. Ill take you up on this one and explain why I disagree with the tech proof and flow data to back up my statements.
I would put OUR spray bar in many of the late model EFI style carb intakes any day over any of the mass produced plates on the market.
I am getting my *** kicked on deadlines here at the shop so I need alittle time to get back with you on this one. Please stay on me to back up my talk.
Dave
As to your comment against spray bars. No disrespect but you could not be anyfurther from the facts on this one. Ill take you up on this one and explain why I disagree with the tech proof and flow data to back up my statements.
I would put OUR spray bar in many of the late model EFI style carb intakes any day over any of the mass produced plates on the market.
I am getting my *** kicked on deadlines here at the shop so I need alittle time to get back with you on this one. Please stay on me to back up my talk.
Dave
Dve I remember seeing the setup that was in the intake on next's car when it went to eastside for the rebuild... that was one of the reasons that was thought to be some of the issues that he was having...
Do you have the spray bar setup in your own car? if not, why?
I understand what you've tried to do with that, and belive me I understand the limitations of the plate design's that are out there. Speedtech diffuser, once properly blueprinted is probably about the best one that has ben made to date, but even that I would not consider for anything thats' going to need more then 250, as the cyl to cyl distribution isn't there for it. I can't see that spray bar being any better then any plate out there. You are still spraying into a common area... and the airflow of the intake is being left to help decide what goes where.
I don't even like the rail setups for foggers, while I'm at it, as I feel the pressure differnce from one end of that to the other is going to be too great to have the accuracy that I would want, the Y block distirbution block that wilson pro flow uses, is probably the best design for a distribution block, for a fogger. Granted the simple Nos distribution blocks have taken cars WAY far, but from a cyl to cyl perspective, the Y should be better, providing it's also been blueprinted prior to assy.
There's a reason that you see multiple foggers on every fast fast nitrous car out there, or an in the plenum style system, like a viper from fulton... even those are aimed into the runners, so there's no ability for the airflow to effect what goes where, it's being shot right into the runners.
In the end you make a very good product, nothing wrong with any of these things, as long as people understand the limitations of them it's fine. In the end you can put 200 to anything that's got a built/forged motor in it and as long as you don't get too far out in left field with the tuneup, it will be fine. But, try to use one of these setup's as a primary kit spraying 1/2 of a 400 shot and it's shortcomings are going to come up and show their ugly head IMO.
A plate/spray bar and a fogger is a very popular setup, people do 400+ that way all the time in the racing world (outside the ls world), and it works, but in the end, every time that a problem comes up the first thing that usually is brought up is the plate power level vs the fogger and how much of it is at fault of the one cyl that got hammered. usually it's the guy that has 1/2 of the 400 in both kits, the guys that get away with this from what I have seen, usually have 100 to 150 in the plate and the oher 250 in the fogger, so it's controlling more of the distribution..
The spray bars, for a 200 hit on a car that someone's aiming to get to 9.50 or slower, probably will never have an issue. Start trying to hit that car with 300 and go bottom 9's it's going to have issues, and ditribution will likly be a part of the problem...... spraying into the common area, is going to leave some ability for parts of the motor to get more then others, sucks but it is what it is. Same with any plate at the intake entrance, regardless of design of the intake, plate etc. Just is what it is. Doesn't stop people from putting 400 to cars in this manner, but that doesn't by any means make it the best route.
03-11-2011, 12:15 PM
#146
Agreed A DP system is by far the best choice out there but Dave has flowed & tested his bars and will chime back in with proof that backs up what he's saying when hes has a few min to spare.
With that said Im going with a bar over a plate until I can do a real nice DP set up down the road. Then I will use the bar as a second stage if i need it.
With that said Im going with a bar over a plate until I can do a real nice DP set up down the road. Then I will use the bar as a second stage if i need it.
03-11-2011, 03:03 PM
#147
Dve I remember seeing the setup that was in the intake on next's car when it went to eastside for the rebuild... that was one of the reasons that was thought to be some of the issues that he was having...
Do you have the spray bar setup in your own car? if not, why?
I understand what you've tried to do with that, and belive me I understand the limitations of the plate design's that are out there. Speedtech diffuser, once properly blueprinted is probably about the best one that has ben made to date, but even that I would not consider for anything thats' going to need more then 250, as the cyl to cyl distribution isn't there for it. I can't see that spray bar being any better then any plate out there. You are still spraying into a common area... and the airflow of the intake is being left to help decide what goes where.
I don't even like the rail setups for foggers, while I'm at it, as I feel the pressure differnce from one end of that to the other is going to be too great to have the accuracy that I would want, the Y block distirbution block that wilson pro flow uses, is probably the best design for a distribution block, for a fogger. Granted the simple Nos distribution blocks have taken cars WAY far, but from a cyl to cyl perspective, the Y should be better, providing it's also been blueprinted prior to assy.
There's a reason that you see multiple foggers on every fast fast nitrous car out there, or an in the plenum style system, like a viper from fulton... even those are aimed into the runners, so there's no ability for the airflow to effect what goes where, it's being shot right into the runners.
In the end you make a very good product, nothing wrong with any of these things, as long as people understand the limitations of them it's fine. In the end you can put 200 to anything that's got a built/forged motor in it and as long as you don't get too far out in left field with the tuneup, it will be fine. But, try to use one of these setup's as a primary kit spraying 1/2 of a 400 shot and it's shortcomings are going to come up and show their ugly head IMO.
A plate/spray bar and a fogger is a very popular setup, people do 400+ that way all the time in the racing world (outside the ls world), and it works, but in the end, every time that a problem comes up the first thing that usually is brought up is the plate power level vs the fogger and how much of it is at fault of the one cyl that got hammered. usually it's the guy that has 1/2 of the 400 in both kits, the guys that get away with this from what I have seen, usually have 100 to 150 in the plate and the oher 250 in the fogger, so it's controlling more of the distribution..
The spray bars, for a 200 hit on a car that someone's aiming to get to 9.50 or slower, probably will never have an issue. Start trying to hit that car with 300 and go bottom 9's it's going to have issues, and ditribution will likly be a part of the problem...... spraying into the common area, is going to leave some ability for parts of the motor to get more then others, sucks but it is what it is. Same with any plate at the intake entrance, regardless of design of the intake, plate etc. Just is what it is. Doesn't stop people from putting 400 to cars in this manner, but that doesn't by any means make it the best route.
Do you have the spray bar setup in your own car? if not, why?
I understand what you've tried to do with that, and belive me I understand the limitations of the plate design's that are out there. Speedtech diffuser, once properly blueprinted is probably about the best one that has ben made to date, but even that I would not consider for anything thats' going to need more then 250, as the cyl to cyl distribution isn't there for it. I can't see that spray bar being any better then any plate out there. You are still spraying into a common area... and the airflow of the intake is being left to help decide what goes where.
I don't even like the rail setups for foggers, while I'm at it, as I feel the pressure differnce from one end of that to the other is going to be too great to have the accuracy that I would want, the Y block distirbution block that wilson pro flow uses, is probably the best design for a distribution block, for a fogger. Granted the simple Nos distribution blocks have taken cars WAY far, but from a cyl to cyl perspective, the Y should be better, providing it's also been blueprinted prior to assy.
There's a reason that you see multiple foggers on every fast fast nitrous car out there, or an in the plenum style system, like a viper from fulton... even those are aimed into the runners, so there's no ability for the airflow to effect what goes where, it's being shot right into the runners.
In the end you make a very good product, nothing wrong with any of these things, as long as people understand the limitations of them it's fine. In the end you can put 200 to anything that's got a built/forged motor in it and as long as you don't get too far out in left field with the tuneup, it will be fine. But, try to use one of these setup's as a primary kit spraying 1/2 of a 400 shot and it's shortcomings are going to come up and show their ugly head IMO.
A plate/spray bar and a fogger is a very popular setup, people do 400+ that way all the time in the racing world (outside the ls world), and it works, but in the end, every time that a problem comes up the first thing that usually is brought up is the plate power level vs the fogger and how much of it is at fault of the one cyl that got hammered. usually it's the guy that has 1/2 of the 400 in both kits, the guys that get away with this from what I have seen, usually have 100 to 150 in the plate and the oher 250 in the fogger, so it's controlling more of the distribution..
The spray bars, for a 200 hit on a car that someone's aiming to get to 9.50 or slower, probably will never have an issue. Start trying to hit that car with 300 and go bottom 9's it's going to have issues, and ditribution will likly be a part of the problem...... spraying into the common area, is going to leave some ability for parts of the motor to get more then others, sucks but it is what it is. Same with any plate at the intake entrance, regardless of design of the intake, plate etc. Just is what it is. Doesn't stop people from putting 400 to cars in this manner, but that doesn't by any means make it the best route.
I will say this flat out. Eric Piners issue was nothing with the product on the intake nor how it was plumbed. As a matter of fact when East side recieved the intake the components NX sponsored Eric with, East side did not like it because it was not the standard traditional distribution block directport East side was familiar with. It had NX rails instead of blocks. So since East side did not like the rails they replumbed it way before it went to be tuned and put NOS square jetting in it based off what they had found to work for them in the NOS product line.
From my understanding when east side took the car to the track to be tuned they were pressed for time. They took the car off the trailor turned both stages on and put the nuts to it on the first pass. It did not work on in Eric or East sides favor. We both know Eastide knows what they are doing and I am not bad mouthing them in anyway. I have never heard anything bad about them and I have only had this one dealing with them. Im just saying they got in a hurry due to time restraints and instead of taking there time to dial each system in properly they made a bad judgement call.
Thats what cost Eric and Eastide a motor. Not the product on the motor. Plain and simple.
Do you have any personal experience with OUR spray bars? Any flow data, etc? Lots of companies do spray bars. They were doing it before I even got in the buisness so its not something we created. I have seen alot of issues with some of the work some companies are doing but we are not talking about the other guys. Keep in mind we are talking about Nitrous Outlet spray bars.
I am not saying that spraybars is the answer for every application. I am saying done properly it is a great option for many applications. On the other hand its not the option I would use for all applications.
Yes I have spray bars in my personal Intake. I have had them in a few other cars of mine through out the years as well. The current car will have a .082 jet in the spray bar for local class rules. We are not allowed to use a direct port. My direct port has 300 pills in it.
Personally I have no ill feelings with moving up into the 300 and even 500 hp power level with a spray bar as long as the plugs are still looking good.
You do realize people have been using Edelbrock, NOS, NX and other single bar nitrous plates for many many years correct?
Our spray bars are very similiar to that technolongy but much better! Main difference is we machine the intake to bring the bars down and we drill the bars to match the intake runner configuration. These are just a couple perks to how it differs.
My tech data I am going to show will highlight the rest. I have 10 intakes on the shelf for direct ports, 5 intakes getting spray bars, 1cars getting a nitrous install and everyone screaming to hurry because they waited to last minute to try to get ready for an event. We are working from *am to 1 and 2 am right now trying to get caught up. If you can bare with me I promise my responce will be well worth waiting for.
Your a good dude so please do not take my difference in opinion on this particular item as a personal attack to yours. We both know there is always different opnions and different ways to getting the same results. I like to let technical data and a **** load of R&D control my opnion and the reason why I use what, when I use it, and what combo I use it in.
Dave
Last edited by Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet; 03-11-2011 at 03:09 PM.
03-12-2011, 08:47 AM
#148
Dave thanks for the response. I don't think the actual timeline with Piner's car is 100% accurate, but it's long done and over with, car's been sold and parted out, I just recall there being alot of issues with that entire setup when it was first touched by Ken, and when it left, the car was using a more traditional plumbed fogger and the spray bars weren't being used anymore.
All that aside, I am more then aware of the old spray bar plates from others, and I say the same about those, 200 on a built motor and I wouldn't think to do any more then that... just not good enough distribution to have the reliability and consistancey from cyl to cyl to have things stay together when being run at 100% for me. SJ sells the edlebrock plate with the dual spray bars in it... that to me, is a little better then 1 as it at least gives the ability to foll the common area from more points.. which the zex plate does from the outer edges of the common area, diffuser does from the center in a cone shaped spray pattern. But, in the end... they are all spraying into the common area, and the airflow thru the intake is going to effect where the nitrous goes... the fogger/dp, eliminates that, and that's where the control comes in... as you are more then aware of.
Please post up whatever technicial data you can. What I would be interested in, and I'm not even 100% that it can be done, is see an intake flowed with that on it, with both a CFM of air thru a TB on the top of the intake, or in this particular car's case with the elbow on... if the engine is going to inhale 1000 cfm of air, pump that into the intake's inlet, thru the means the customer is going to use, then turn the nitrous on, and get some type of cyl to cyl measurment of the nitrous that each cylinder is seeing.
If that's doable, and without a lab to work in I can't exactly think of how it would work (I am pretty sure it can be done though) but if that can be done, and I see less then a 2% variance from any one port to any other port then I will resind any thoughts that this can't distribute at a over a 200 hp level safely.
I'm glad to hear that you have the work that you have also... that means that there's alot of guys out there racing, and that's what's important for the industry, tracks, and companies like yours that build alot of
stuff. I'm too far away to be out supporting any of it at this point... car's in the middle of a 2 year rebuild, so I'm off the chart for a while with things. Sucks becuase I don't get out to the track like I used to now.... and may be missing out on some stuff. I hope that your test results, if you can do something like what I mentioned with the incoming air flowing thru the intake instead of just running it with no air moving in it and seeing where the nitrous is going will prove that I'm behind on the times. The spray bar is a nice and clean way to put a system in an intake, without adding any additional height to the intake. But, in the overall realm of things, and what I have experience with (nos plates, the nx plate which needs to be totally re-plubed right away due to the T fitting, zex perimiter, diffuser plates and DP systems, from nos, wilson, nx all of which were on one car or another that I've built, or helped with) I don't trust anything other then a fogger for much over 200. For a car with multiple systems.. if a plate is being used, it better be no more then 150 of the total 300 to 600 that I've seen run.
All that aside, I am more then aware of the old spray bar plates from others, and I say the same about those, 200 on a built motor and I wouldn't think to do any more then that... just not good enough distribution to have the reliability and consistancey from cyl to cyl to have things stay together when being run at 100% for me. SJ sells the edlebrock plate with the dual spray bars in it... that to me, is a little better then 1 as it at least gives the ability to foll the common area from more points.. which the zex plate does from the outer edges of the common area, diffuser does from the center in a cone shaped spray pattern. But, in the end... they are all spraying into the common area, and the airflow thru the intake is going to effect where the nitrous goes... the fogger/dp, eliminates that, and that's where the control comes in... as you are more then aware of.
Please post up whatever technicial data you can. What I would be interested in, and I'm not even 100% that it can be done, is see an intake flowed with that on it, with both a CFM of air thru a TB on the top of the intake, or in this particular car's case with the elbow on... if the engine is going to inhale 1000 cfm of air, pump that into the intake's inlet, thru the means the customer is going to use, then turn the nitrous on, and get some type of cyl to cyl measurment of the nitrous that each cylinder is seeing.
If that's doable, and without a lab to work in I can't exactly think of how it would work (I am pretty sure it can be done though) but if that can be done, and I see less then a 2% variance from any one port to any other port then I will resind any thoughts that this can't distribute at a over a 200 hp level safely.
I'm glad to hear that you have the work that you have also... that means that there's alot of guys out there racing, and that's what's important for the industry, tracks, and companies like yours that build alot of
stuff. I'm too far away to be out supporting any of it at this point... car's in the middle of a 2 year rebuild, so I'm off the chart for a while with things. Sucks becuase I don't get out to the track like I used to now.... and may be missing out on some stuff. I hope that your test results, if you can do something like what I mentioned with the incoming air flowing thru the intake instead of just running it with no air moving in it and seeing where the nitrous is going will prove that I'm behind on the times. The spray bar is a nice and clean way to put a system in an intake, without adding any additional height to the intake. But, in the overall realm of things, and what I have experience with (nos plates, the nx plate which needs to be totally re-plubed right away due to the T fitting, zex perimiter, diffuser plates and DP systems, from nos, wilson, nx all of which were on one car or another that I've built, or helped with) I don't trust anything other then a fogger for much over 200. For a car with multiple systems.. if a plate is being used, it better be no more then 150 of the total 300 to 600 that I've seen run.
03-12-2011, 09:47 AM
#149
04-27-2011, 02:52 PM
#150
Ok Intake is done, flowed and on its way back to me. Dave from the Nitrous Outlet will do a write up/ with pics on it soon. Says it flows great. He also did a comparison with the Big shot plate and says its a huge difference. It will be interesting to see the results.
Also got an update on the short block. Block is getting worked on now and should have it within 2 weeks.
Also got an update on the short block. Block is getting worked on now and should have it within 2 weeks.
04-27-2011, 04:12 PM
#151
I am sure there is a difference with a big shot plate. I'd have been more interested in comparing the results to a zex or diffuser plate with a 200 shot.
As long as you're not putting more then 200 to that it will be fine... or if you want to step it up, send it back to dave and have a fogger put on it and use the sprayar's as a 2ndary 100 to 150 worth.. and you will be fine.
I see that 300+ number thrown around with those types of setups, and it brings back memories of some really cool looking burnt up parts.
As long as you're not putting more then 200 to that it will be fine... or if you want to step it up, send it back to dave and have a fogger put on it and use the sprayar's as a 2ndary 100 to 150 worth.. and you will be fine.
I see that 300+ number thrown around with those types of setups, and it brings back memories of some really cool looking burnt up parts.
04-27-2011, 05:38 PM
#153
Makes sense. I just warn you... don't get too greedy with that spray bar. Sure it will flow 500, flow isn't the problem with that, or any of the plate design's It's the mix from cyl to cyl.
Do alot, and I mean ALOT of 1/8th mile passes with no more then a 71 nitrous jet in that thing and read every plug/cut the threads off every one, and make sure you have a decent balance from cyl to cyl before even running it a full pass. I wouldn't even start with a 71 jet, probably a 58 would be a good starting point, that's about 125 or so, depending on who's jet sheet you go off of.
Just keep the timing WAY LOW... and make sure you don't let it get too rich. Honestly, if the fuel price for the standalone isn't a big deal, I'd run C23 in it. That's a really good nitrous fuel, if you have a competition fuels dealer, try the 118nos fuel from them, IMO it's a little better then C16 but not as good as C23.
Better the fuel you run in that standalone, the more likly it will do it's job and give you a safety window.
Do alot, and I mean ALOT of 1/8th mile passes with no more then a 71 nitrous jet in that thing and read every plug/cut the threads off every one, and make sure you have a decent balance from cyl to cyl before even running it a full pass. I wouldn't even start with a 71 jet, probably a 58 would be a good starting point, that's about 125 or so, depending on who's jet sheet you go off of.
Just keep the timing WAY LOW... and make sure you don't let it get too rich. Honestly, if the fuel price for the standalone isn't a big deal, I'd run C23 in it. That's a really good nitrous fuel, if you have a competition fuels dealer, try the 118nos fuel from them, IMO it's a little better then C16 but not as good as C23.
Better the fuel you run in that standalone, the more likly it will do it's job and give you a safety window.
04-27-2011, 06:03 PM
#154
I had my spray bar set up for a 300 shot max. Will def read plugs and test test test. The fuel for the stand alone has no price limit so I will use whatever is gonna work the best and safest. I may also run a 100/93 mix in the main tank.
04-27-2011, 10:40 PM
#155
I'd honestly advise the best fuel possible in both tanks. But, whatever you do, be consistant with it. You start changing the mix in the main tank and you'll be o.k. one day, overly safe the next, unsafe the next... I'd try to run the same thing all the time especially during the learning process.
C23 in the standalone if I were you, and strait 93 just to be consistant at first.
Not sure what you're doing for standalone pressure, but I'd recommend setting it up low pressure, say 5 psi to start, and jet accordingly. With 5 psi you should, be able to start off with close to square jetting and go from there. Just let Dave know what pressure you want to run, and get the jets accordingly. And, get as many up and down sizes for both sides as you can.. chances are you'll play with it a bit at first before you figure out what it's going to like for a spread. At that point you should be o.k. going up on the nitrous power one or 2 jet sizes at a time, and be able to adjust your fuel in a similar step.
YB should be able to help you more with that then you will be able to get here... there's way better nitrous info on that site.
C23 in the standalone if I were you, and strait 93 just to be consistant at first.
Not sure what you're doing for standalone pressure, but I'd recommend setting it up low pressure, say 5 psi to start, and jet accordingly. With 5 psi you should, be able to start off with close to square jetting and go from there. Just let Dave know what pressure you want to run, and get the jets accordingly. And, get as many up and down sizes for both sides as you can.. chances are you'll play with it a bit at first before you figure out what it's going to like for a spread. At that point you should be o.k. going up on the nitrous power one or 2 jet sizes at a time, and be able to adjust your fuel in a similar step.
YB should be able to help you more with that then you will be able to get here... there's way better nitrous info on that site.
04-28-2011, 11:08 AM
#156
Thanks for the help JL!
The stand alone is high pressure system set at 45psi. Dave made me a jetting card and set the spray bars for that pressure. Im on YB just dont post up much over there. More of a lurker! Only reason I might use a mix in the main tank is my SCR with be 12.9 so Im not sure if the motor NA will be safe on 93. We will get it all figured out when the car gets retuned for the new engine
The stand alone is high pressure system set at 45psi. Dave made me a jetting card and set the spray bars for that pressure. Im on YB just dont post up much over there. More of a lurker! Only reason I might use a mix in the main tank is my SCR with be 12.9 so Im not sure if the motor NA will be safe on 93. We will get it all figured out when the car gets retuned for the new engine
04-28-2011, 11:40 AM
#157
BE CAREFUL with that fuel mixing thing.. I'm telling ya I've seen more then one person smoke something because of a bad mix, and we're talking n/a stuff...
I'm somewhat surprised at the 45 psi. Now when you put a fogger on the car down the road, you will need to redo all your jetting for the spray bars, because you aren't running a fogger on 45 psi.... unless you like running jets that are so small they clog up on a regular basis.
We run low pressure on everything so that way the fuel jet can be a good size, and not worry about clogging them. With a 32 jet in a fogger, (about a 325 hit) it's normal to run a 26 or 24 fuel jet, and usually have the fuel pressure somewhere around 5 psi to start (fuel jet depending on wether it's a primary or secondary system) the tuning process. You try to run 45 psi, and you'd have a .018 or something crazy like that in there. Things would clog up if you look at it funny.
I'm somewhat surprised at the 45 psi. Now when you put a fogger on the car down the road, you will need to redo all your jetting for the spray bars, because you aren't running a fogger on 45 psi.... unless you like running jets that are so small they clog up on a regular basis.
We run low pressure on everything so that way the fuel jet can be a good size, and not worry about clogging them. With a 32 jet in a fogger, (about a 325 hit) it's normal to run a 26 or 24 fuel jet, and usually have the fuel pressure somewhere around 5 psi to start (fuel jet depending on wether it's a primary or secondary system) the tuning process. You try to run 45 psi, and you'd have a .018 or something crazy like that in there. Things would clog up if you look at it funny.
04-28-2011, 01:03 PM
#158
Good info. Im running 45 because that is what the LT1 wet plate kit was based off of and I already have that set up on the car. When I do go to the fogger I will change it all up.
Think I should just run straight 100oct to be safe? We have a couple gas stations around that always have it, and I dont drive the car all that much so mileage and fuel cost wont be that big of a deal.
Think I should just run straight 100oct to be safe? We have a couple gas stations around that always have it, and I dont drive the car all that much so mileage and fuel cost wont be that big of a deal.
04-28-2011, 04:45 PM
#159
As long as you can afford it, and it's readily available I would if you're worried about it.
I know my old 402 wasn't happy on anything less then 114... but that was 13.5 to 1 static and the dynamic was up there pretty good too.
Nitrous, I ran 118Nos torco only. Torco is now competition fuels, and I would still run their fuel and feel good about it. If you have a local VP dealer, run that though... I'd always tell ya to run something that you can get readily. I have a local competition fuel dealer to me... so that's what I do. That, and it's a good bit cheaper then VP, and from my exp, the quality for what I've done to date has been fine.
I know my old 402 wasn't happy on anything less then 114... but that was 13.5 to 1 static and the dynamic was up there pretty good too.
Nitrous, I ran 118Nos torco only. Torco is now competition fuels, and I would still run their fuel and feel good about it. If you have a local VP dealer, run that though... I'd always tell ya to run something that you can get readily. I have a local competition fuel dealer to me... so that's what I do. That, and it's a good bit cheaper then VP, and from my exp, the quality for what I've done to date has been fine.
04-28-2011, 06:03 PM
#160
I used to drag race snowmobiles and my local dealer that sponsored me can get me VP or competition race fuel and they are only a few blocks from my house. My car has only seen about 500 miles in the last 2 yrs so Im not to worried about the cost of 100 in the main tank. I also upgraded to the 4500psi NANO today.