Car not 60'ing like it used to... Help!
05-16-2011, 02:15 PM
#1
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Car not 60'ing like it used to... Help! I would post this in the Suspension section but I feel like I will get a better answer in here.
In the past I have been pretty lucky with my suspension, with not much thought I was able to cut anywhere from 1.40 to 1.43 60's with good track prep, but now it seems like my luck has caught up with me and I may have to do some work.
In Dec of '07 when the car went 10.32 I was in that 1.40/1.43 range but started to notice that the car was leaving slightly crooked. Still tracking strait, but with definite body roll. After that rental I bought and installed a Spohn Drag Bar.
The car was not raced after that since I bought a condo, had it fully gutted and remodeled and CARTEK were trying some things with a new setup. The work has been done more or less for about a year with the exception going to a different rocker and intake setup this winter but on the couple of times we have tried stuff at the tack, it became clear that the car no longer hooks like it used to. Not a tire or track issue to be sure.
I had also noticed that the adjuster Heim Joint on the torque arm was bent, I believe that indicates that the suspension is binding somewhere. Can adding a drag bar cause a bind in the suspension or was it always like this and I just did not notice? My vote is for this is a problem that has been there for a long time because in '06 I also ripped a torque arm mounting bracket in half. lol
Here is the current setup:
Front:
BMR K-Member and Lower Control Arms
QA1 Shocks with stock springs
Rear:
Stealth Torque Arm [its full length but mounts to a modified trans support member, all solid joints]
BMR Tubular Control arms [non adjustable]
Madman Adjustable PHB
Spohn Drag Bar
LCA Relocation brackets
QA1 Shocks with stock springs
The car also has SFC and a 6 point roll bar. And race weight is 3300lbs
I run 28x10.5 15 Slicks, 4.56 gears and it is a Manual.
I assume I need a new torque arm but the only one that will work with my TSP True duals is the Midwest Chassis one. I refuse to change ANYTHING associated with the motor, even exhaust cause this thing screams!
May need adjustable LCAs as well.
Where else should I concentrate, what should I look for? And so on to get back to my 60's and possibly sneak in a 1.39
Thanks guys!
In the past I have been pretty lucky with my suspension, with not much thought I was able to cut anywhere from 1.40 to 1.43 60's with good track prep, but now it seems like my luck has caught up with me and I may have to do some work.
In Dec of '07 when the car went 10.32 I was in that 1.40/1.43 range but started to notice that the car was leaving slightly crooked. Still tracking strait, but with definite body roll. After that rental I bought and installed a Spohn Drag Bar.
The car was not raced after that since I bought a condo, had it fully gutted and remodeled and CARTEK were trying some things with a new setup. The work has been done more or less for about a year with the exception going to a different rocker and intake setup this winter but on the couple of times we have tried stuff at the tack, it became clear that the car no longer hooks like it used to. Not a tire or track issue to be sure.
I had also noticed that the adjuster Heim Joint on the torque arm was bent, I believe that indicates that the suspension is binding somewhere. Can adding a drag bar cause a bind in the suspension or was it always like this and I just did not notice? My vote is for this is a problem that has been there for a long time because in '06 I also ripped a torque arm mounting bracket in half. lol
Here is the current setup:
Front:
BMR K-Member and Lower Control Arms
QA1 Shocks with stock springs
Rear:
Stealth Torque Arm [its full length but mounts to a modified trans support member, all solid joints]
BMR Tubular Control arms [non adjustable]
Madman Adjustable PHB
Spohn Drag Bar
LCA Relocation brackets
QA1 Shocks with stock springs
The car also has SFC and a 6 point roll bar. And race weight is 3300lbs
I run 28x10.5 15 Slicks, 4.56 gears and it is a Manual.
I assume I need a new torque arm but the only one that will work with my TSP True duals is the Midwest Chassis one. I refuse to change ANYTHING associated with the motor, even exhaust cause this thing screams!
May need adjustable LCAs as well.
Where else should I concentrate, what should I look for? And so on to get back to my 60's and possibly sneak in a 1.39
Thanks guys!
05-16-2011, 02:26 PM
#2
I know you said it isn't a tire or track issue but how old are your tires? I started to see a constant decrease in my 60ft times after my car sat (in the air on jack stands) for 6 months then I put a few street miles on it with my drag tires. After that I was consistantly down .08-.12 on my 60ft times and I didn't change anything. I put a fresh set of 28x10.5x15S ET Drags on it and my 60ft times were right back to normal.
05-16-2011, 02:33 PM
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Tires were purchased brand new last fall; 1.50 to 1.48 60's brand new, and 1.48-1-51 after about 8 passes. They have been in a climate controlled garage over the winter.
Hoosier 28x10.5 15 stiff sidewall. Before I ran a M/T in the same size and the same sidewall. Noticed a reduced 60' in both brands.
There were ordered new from Summit, though obviously I have no idea how long they were in their warehouse.
The car is also making more power since the 10.32 pass. Not a ton more, but a noticible increase in power.
The issue I can feel, since I have no video from outside the car, is that it is no longer transferring weight as it used to. Before the car would rip the nose in the air about a foot. Now it just seems like it rocks back a bit but I don't feel it raises the nose as much.
Also, I have always run the same settings on the shocks, 3-front 7-rear.
Hoosier 28x10.5 15 stiff sidewall. Before I ran a M/T in the same size and the same sidewall. Noticed a reduced 60' in both brands.
There were ordered new from Summit, though obviously I have no idea how long they were in their warehouse.
The car is also making more power since the 10.32 pass. Not a ton more, but a noticible increase in power.
The issue I can feel, since I have no video from outside the car, is that it is no longer transferring weight as it used to. Before the car would rip the nose in the air about a foot. Now it just seems like it rocks back a bit but I don't feel it raises the nose as much.
Also, I have always run the same settings on the shocks, 3-front 7-rear.
05-16-2011, 03:22 PM
#4
I agree with the tires theory but couldn't it be your rear shocks & springs ? Afterall you say that weight transfer failure is noticed !!
I'd also eliminate any rubber or flex in a drag car suspension but I'd suggest you look at probably motor maintinance & probably lost power too ... I'd start with the QA1s failing theory thou !
I'd also eliminate any rubber or flex in a drag car suspension but I'd suggest you look at probably motor maintinance & probably lost power too ... I'd start with the QA1s failing theory thou !
05-16-2011, 03:56 PM
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Car was just dyno'd [literally less than 2 weeks ago] no loss of power... in fact the opposite.
Hm.. So the suggestion is that the shocks are broken?
Hm.. So the suggestion is that the shocks are broken?
05-16-2011, 09:58 PM
#6
Shocks could be blown out, qa1's are pretty known to do that. The tq arm could be bent/jacked up, that will cause a problem... if you broke the rear bracket, chances are the rest of it could be fatigued, may be time to have someone build a new one for you that's a little beefier. I would try to put a slider on the front, and a madman style front adjuster, along with his type of rear bracket. maybe get his arm, and then redesign the chassis mount, or channel it into the floor to clear the exhuast, if needed as I know the issue you probably have.. I dealt with the same thing.
You may be at the point that a double adjustable shock is needed due to the power of the car as well. Not sure if you are screwing the tires to the rim, I assume you are. not sure how many screws you are using, but you may need to add more to work the sidewall more evenly, or swap to a beadlock rim so the tire will get worked equeally thru the entire launch, as that can have an effect.
Without seeing what the car is doing (spinning at the hit, spinning a little bit out) it's hard to say what the issue is, but those are the things I would look at. You may want to scale the car and make sure the corner weights are right as well so that way you know that it's going to leave strait, while you're at it.
The added power could be causing a good increase in the wheel speed at the launch too, an air pressure adjustment may be needed as well from where you used to run it.. I would start with the possible broken/worn out parts, get that stuff sorted first. While you're at that, look to make some improvements there (double adjustable afco shocks for instance)
Make sure the car is square too. If you had something happen that was harsh enough to break the tq arm bracket, it's possible that the control arms may not be strait. I'd be looking at the lca mounting holes while you're at it too, make sure they're not getting ovaled/worn out, and if they are, it's time to plate them up with 1/8th inch thick steel plate and a larget diameter bolt while you are doing it.
Hope this helps, or gives you some places to look for the issues
You may be at the point that a double adjustable shock is needed due to the power of the car as well. Not sure if you are screwing the tires to the rim, I assume you are. not sure how many screws you are using, but you may need to add more to work the sidewall more evenly, or swap to a beadlock rim so the tire will get worked equeally thru the entire launch, as that can have an effect.
Without seeing what the car is doing (spinning at the hit, spinning a little bit out) it's hard to say what the issue is, but those are the things I would look at. You may want to scale the car and make sure the corner weights are right as well so that way you know that it's going to leave strait, while you're at it.
The added power could be causing a good increase in the wheel speed at the launch too, an air pressure adjustment may be needed as well from where you used to run it.. I would start with the possible broken/worn out parts, get that stuff sorted first. While you're at that, look to make some improvements there (double adjustable afco shocks for instance)
Make sure the car is square too. If you had something happen that was harsh enough to break the tq arm bracket, it's possible that the control arms may not be strait. I'd be looking at the lca mounting holes while you're at it too, make sure they're not getting ovaled/worn out, and if they are, it's time to plate them up with 1/8th inch thick steel plate and a larget diameter bolt while you are doing it.
Hope this helps, or gives you some places to look for the issues
05-16-2011, 10:07 PM
#7
thats sucks alex.
ya check the shocks, I hear the QA1 wear out kinds fast, I know some friends that had them not reacting at the track like normal. Took them off the car, clicks didn't make any changes to them
hows the front of the TA mount have any pics?
The rear lower rod end adjuster bent on the TA? do you have a upper one? Can you put the rear bolts in the TA rod ends easy? Sounds like you have it so after you set the PA they bind?
How low is the car? What stuff have you done about lowing the car and running the 28s for the rear end tucking more?
The lower shock mount can wear the shocks out fast if you have them binding form being forced, check how thouse are. On the stock style lower mount with the post/stud, I like to put a extra thin washer or take out a big thick fender washer that covers alot of the rubber bushing. You can get the shock to have some movement if you chance the hardware a little they come with.
If you dont have rod end parts and poly ones (you non adj LCA, and the front arms?) loosen them up, and tighten them up at right height. You can get binding and the car be all stiff and not transfer like normal if you crank them down with the rear end handing down, same with the front control arms.
You run the rear bumpstops? check if its hitting them. Some guys don't check that, If the axle tube hit them its bad,. Check all the ends of the suspension,might have a locked up rod end or somthing?
Check the DS, make sure the slip yoke is good, slides on the trans smoothly. And look up the spines, and the tail shaft splines isn't starting to twist. If that gets warn and the slip yoke isn't free it messes with traction big time. Thats something that happens and sean alot of M6 guys looking for the problem for a long time before they find out, Or don't thing the slip yoke can do all that,
Check the rear end for square if it moved or bending or something? Cheak the axles, for run out, and the brakes for dragging? I think you broke a few gear sets in the 12bolt, could cause other damage.
If the clutch good? Get some vids I see so much more watching vids.
ya check the shocks, I hear the QA1 wear out kinds fast, I know some friends that had them not reacting at the track like normal. Took them off the car, clicks didn't make any changes to them
hows the front of the TA mount have any pics?
The rear lower rod end adjuster bent on the TA? do you have a upper one? Can you put the rear bolts in the TA rod ends easy? Sounds like you have it so after you set the PA they bind?
How low is the car? What stuff have you done about lowing the car and running the 28s for the rear end tucking more?
The lower shock mount can wear the shocks out fast if you have them binding form being forced, check how thouse are. On the stock style lower mount with the post/stud, I like to put a extra thin washer or take out a big thick fender washer that covers alot of the rubber bushing. You can get the shock to have some movement if you chance the hardware a little they come with.
If you dont have rod end parts and poly ones (you non adj LCA, and the front arms?) loosen them up, and tighten them up at right height. You can get binding and the car be all stiff and not transfer like normal if you crank them down with the rear end handing down, same with the front control arms.
You run the rear bumpstops? check if its hitting them. Some guys don't check that, If the axle tube hit them its bad,. Check all the ends of the suspension,might have a locked up rod end or somthing?
Check the DS, make sure the slip yoke is good, slides on the trans smoothly. And look up the spines, and the tail shaft splines isn't starting to twist. If that gets warn and the slip yoke isn't free it messes with traction big time. Thats something that happens and sean alot of M6 guys looking for the problem for a long time before they find out, Or don't thing the slip yoke can do all that,
Check the rear end for square if it moved or bending or something? Cheak the axles, for run out, and the brakes for dragging? I think you broke a few gear sets in the 12bolt, could cause other damage.
If the clutch good? Get some vids I see so much more watching vids.
Last edited by studderin; 05-16-2011 at 10:14 PM.
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05-17-2011, 05:36 AM
#8
05-17-2011, 09:27 AM
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CARTEK Racing
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You've given me some stuff to think about for sure.
Im almost sure Im going to go with a new torque arm and solid mount adjustable LCA's this summer. More than likely from MIdwest Chassis due to the fitment issues with the exhaust. I just don't have the time money and energy to make a Madman TA fit.
The shocks going bad could be an issue, kinda find it unacceptable that they would go bad after 3 years but I imagine I can send them to QA1 to have rebuilt. The rear shocks especially are a bit amusing since the car did the same 60's with new QA1a as it did with stock shocks in the back lol.
Im almost sure Im going to go with a new torque arm and solid mount adjustable LCA's this summer. More than likely from MIdwest Chassis due to the fitment issues with the exhaust. I just don't have the time money and energy to make a Madman TA fit.
The shocks going bad could be an issue, kinda find it unacceptable that they would go bad after 3 years but I imagine I can send them to QA1 to have rebuilt. The rear shocks especially are a bit amusing since the car did the same 60's with new QA1a as it did with stock shocks in the back lol.
05-18-2011, 09:56 AM
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Can't blame the tires since the 60's are consistent from when they were brand new.
As for driver... maybe, I have not raced in 3 years. But kinda hard to mess up, "Rev to xxxx, slip out clutch" lol
05-18-2011, 03:05 PM
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well get that t/a fixed or replaced check yourshocks foesure. But try slipping that thing a hair more. because iam sure that themonster is grabbing better then the old cartek clutch and you maybe over powering the track/setup you changed alot in the setup its going to take time to see where she likes it. wish i was close by to help
Rob oh and p.s my car should be runningthis weekend lets see who gets into the nines first
Rob oh and p.s my car should be runningthis weekend lets see who gets into the nines first
05-18-2011, 03:07 PM
#19
Doubt its the shocks Alex. I had my qa1's on there for like 10+ years.
When you put the Spohn bar in, did u raise the nose of the car, sit in the car and level it off? Were the rod end brackets welded and did u tack in the u bolts for the bar on the rear?
Check pinion angle?
What front and rear shock settings have u tried recently?
Do u have any recent video so we could see what the car is doing?
Have u even raced yet with the new valvetrain?
You are one racer that puts ALOT of miles on his car-u may just need a good 4 corner scale done. I always had my car scaled every couple seasons because of the street driving and changing mods.
When you put the Spohn bar in, did u raise the nose of the car, sit in the car and level it off? Were the rod end brackets welded and did u tack in the u bolts for the bar on the rear?
Check pinion angle?
What front and rear shock settings have u tried recently?
Do u have any recent video so we could see what the car is doing?
Have u even raced yet with the new valvetrain?
You are one racer that puts ALOT of miles on his car-u may just need a good 4 corner scale done. I always had my car scaled every couple seasons because of the street driving and changing mods.
05-18-2011, 03:19 PM
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Doubt its the shocks Alex. I had my qa1's on there for like 10+ years.
When you put the Spohn bar in, did u raise the nose of the car, sit in the car and level it off? Were the rod end brackets welded and did u tack in the u bolts for the bar on the rear?
Check pinion angle?
What front and rear shock settings have u tried recently?
Do u have any recent video so we could see what the car is doing?
Have u even raced yet with the new valvetrain?
You are one racer that puts ALOT of miles on his car-u may just need a good 4 corner scale done. I always had my car scaled every couple seasons because of the street driving and changing mods.
When you put the Spohn bar in, did u raise the nose of the car, sit in the car and level it off? Were the rod end brackets welded and did u tack in the u bolts for the bar on the rear?
Check pinion angle?
What front and rear shock settings have u tried recently?
Do u have any recent video so we could see what the car is doing?
Have u even raced yet with the new valvetrain?
You are one racer that puts ALOT of miles on his car-u may just need a good 4 corner scale done. I always had my car scaled every couple seasons because of the street driving and changing mods.
And also when seting up that drag bar the online infoon how to set it up is spot on the ends should be 7inches long end to end then installed then preloaded we just did chrs1313's car the other night