In respect to others I figured that it was about time that I started a new thread.

Why do you guys have such a problem with Stock Eliminator cars? It kills me that every time they are brought up, a slew of posts in regards to cheating follow. You say that you would love for Woodro Josey or Al Corda to post on here. Why? So you can beat up on them?

I would suggest that you have a problem with Stock Eliminator cars, because they make your stuff look bad. Imagine a stock lift cam, stock compression, stock intake, stock throttle body LS1/LT1 that can beat up on a high lift cam, high compression, aftermarket intake, big throttle body LS1/LT1. And to add insult to injury they do it on a nine inch tire!

Stock Eliminator cars are purpose built race cars, which means that no street equipment remains. My LT1 Stocker idles at 1200 rpm. My buddies MORE Performance built 427 LS6 street car idles at 1500 rpm. My Stocker will idle at 150 degrees all day long. Would it kill the valve springs? Yes. The fact that they are stock diameter and height really limits their life. I would think that the transmission would be the first thing to go, because I don't run a cooler. Is a spool practical in a street car? No. If anything, I would suggest that it is quite dangerous.

And for the record, no LT1 or LS1 Stock Eliminator car runs a 2-speed transmission.

Now if you really want to compare the performance of your series to others, I would think that you should shift your focus to the NMRA. The LS1/LT1 comunity has a lot of catching up to do.

As always, no offence meant.

Best Regards,

Daren

 

I have no problem with Stock Eliminator cars. I love them. My car is pretty close to a S/E set up. If I had the money I would be running my car in S/E. It just cost to much and I can't see rebuilding a S/E motor after 20 passes.

I do not have a problem with posts about S/E cars. It is just most people on this site don't have a understanding about S/E racing at all. May be we can educate them.

Have a great one Brother!

Coach

 

Hey Daren,

Who has a problem with S/E cars? I don't see anyone on here saying they are cheating. Also why would you say that any LS1 tech member would beat up on Al Corda if he posted here? Hell all those guys are Heros to most of us around here.

I think you are missing the point when you are trying to compare the cars on this board to that of the SS/SE guys. You know that the S/E cars are purpose built for 1 class. They have strict rules they follow. Yes they are running a LS1 based motor, but the work done to them is beyond the means of 99.9% of the people on this site. No is saying they are cheating, they are just in a world of their own.

My car is running right with the S/E guys and there is no way I would ever pass NHRA S/E tech, because of the porting and valve train and cam and compression etc that I am running. This is a good example of what it takes for a normal schmo like me or anyone else to run as fast as a S/E car on all motor with a 346 LS1. This why they do not allow S/E cars to race in any of the LS1tech Series or similar races in the heads up classes. Those races were meant for the general public like all of the members on here to compete in. Man I thought people complained when I spent some $ on my motor and won the Factory Stock class. I guarantee you I paid less than 1/2 of what a S/E motor costs, and my motor was built to run 300+ passes before freshening.

Once again, we have nothing against S/E LS1 race cars, we just don't compare ours to theirs.

You will also notice in some of the signatures of the LS1tech memembers and Sponsors on the board, that they have posting saying they have the fastest like cam only or fastest NOS LS1 or whatever in the country or the first to hit 9s using what ever etc. Since there is no official national record keeping like NHRA does we have our own little ET database but everyone pretty much knows who is who when it comes to LS1 based ET records on this site.

Your not offending anyone, your asking a very good question!

Anyone else have thoughts?

Lee

 

Then you say this....

contradictory?

no one here is saying that the S/E are cheating. but there is a WHOLE lot more to competitive S/E racing than gutting than dropping a stock motor in the Fbody. yes, there are TONS of constraints in that class BUT to say or imply it is simply a stock bolton setup, come on! you are in aggreement that the fastest S/E cars have big bucks. 15-20K in a motor gets ya started. now are these racers getting ripped off-since they are mostly stock anyways right? are you saying there isnt much technology in this motor setup? heck no! they are radical setups IMHO and looking at your reply or valvetran parts quicking commiting suicide, you believe it too!

as for NMRA/FFW - that is a totally different conversation. we need major sponsers first.

 

I've never seen S/E cars get bashed on this site. In fact, most of us absolutely love the S/E class cars since they are the closest "real" drag cars to our own. I haven't seen Woodrow post here, but his engine builder has registered on the site and posted a few times so I know they lurk here.

I wish they would post here and help out with some technical questions, I seriously doubt anyone would complain.

As for our site records, in the past we didn't consider S/E class records simply because 99% of our members cars were daily-driven and didn't have class sponsorships etc... The cars were truly in different leagues, and nobody will deny that fact. But, lately our members have been building some all-out badass cars, and now that divided line has become a fine line. The home-builts are almost running pro-built numbers now, as more and more members are building drag-only vehicles.

It sure would be nice if the pro racers could join in sometimes, as there isn't another enthusiast site like this with more hardcore GM racers working towards the same goals.

Tony

 

oh yea, and NO WAY would ANYONE on this board that races want to bash top S/E racers! we have so much to learn from them, but are they going to share any tech with us? i doubt it. it isnt in their best interest. i personally would love to sit down and pick their brains on how they get the power they do out of stock components. will we include them on our top 25 lists? i doubt it. do the S/E cars care about our little internet list? lol, no.

 

My remarks were in direct response to the acid porting coments made in several posts.
Woodro is probably one of the most successful Stock/Super Stock engine builders in the Nation. He sometimes posts at http:www.superstockforum.com. I have never seen Al Corda post anywhere.

John,

I have run IHRA Stock Eliminator for about six years now. I started with my Firebird running Pure Stock. With the untouched original LT1 I went 7.94 in the 1/8 th (D/PS). I added a cam, valve springs, and a good transmission and went 7.10 (D/SA). Woodro and I were the guys that petitioned the IHRA to get the LT4 made legal for competition. I was the first person to run an LT4 in Stock Eliminator (S/GTB). I also worked with GM to get the L99 (265 ci LT1) into the books. I put that motor in my Camaro when I built it (S/GTM). It went 7.85 on it's second outing and was 300 lbs heavy for class. In response the IHRA took fuel injected cars out of GT. The Firebird has held five different National Records and the Camaro currently holds the IHRA C/SA National Record.
I run on a very tight budget, so most of my engine parts are OEM. I have never had a valve train failure of any kind, but I always put new rockers and pushrods into my motors. Most of my focus/funds have been directed at the chassis, because I feel that there is a lot to gain in that area first.
I really don't understand the point of the post where you quoted me. I am in no way saying that a Stocker is a street car. I just pointed out some of it's characteristics. It is my strong opinion that a lot of the guys that post on these sites throw a lot of money at the wrong parts.

Best Regards,

Daren

 

I keep trying to track down AL Corda when he is @ RT.66 to pick his brain,
but everytime he isn't by his trailer.

 

I'd love to hear some cam tech from those guys. That is one many areas I feel they are absolutely brilliant in with good crossover to our race cars.

 

I wouldn't even know where to begin if I got to talk to one of those guys, ya know?

i mean seriously, it could be an 8 hour conversation.

 

Daren, are the LS1 S/E cars using 3.900, 3.905 or 3.97 bores?

 

Daren, if I were to consider building a very competitive S/E LS1 race car to campaign, what in your experience would I be looking at spending? A ballpark figure would be just fine. I'd also need a typical maintenance/rebuild schedule if you have a good idea on that. I guess I just want to know how expensive it is to be competitive in S/E racing.

 

I'd like to know too, I'd like to hear more about what its like racing the S/E class for a season. I've seen some S/E 4th Gen Camaros that were selling for $37,000-$50,000 turnkey.

Lee

 

John,

I don't run the LS1, but I do know that the fast guys are re-sleeving their blocks . I believe that the company that does this work has someone who posts on here or one of the other F-Body sites. If you are really interested I can ask someone or maybe get you an e-mail address.

Nine Ball,

I do everything but the machine work and transmissions at my shop. I have built two LT1 cars. My Firebird is a 1995 AC-Delete car with 186 miles on the clock. I purchased it new just to run Stock. It took me about $12,000.00 to index. I have lost count of the upgrades that I have made to it since then (It is about 70% apart again at the moment). The Camaro is a 1999 that I drove to work for three years. I spent about $30,000.00 before I took it to Rockingham two years ago. I am currently building a 1994 Firebird for a friend to run BFI/A and SS/JA. The total budget for the car is about $20,000.00.
It really all boils down to what you want. Do you want to go rounds or have the fastest car out there? I have a very mild LT1 in my Camaro at the moment. It is not really fast, but it does index and go rounds. If you want to run with Al Corda, I have heard numbers in the $20,000.00 range for the motor alone! My suggestion would be to worry about getting the car built first and then build the motor with what you have left in your budget. You can always build a better motor later.
I change parts so often that it is really hard to tell you a good maintenance schedule. I have run six races this year. I have changed heads three times, run three different transmissions and two converters, changed the motor once, tried different injectors, and I'm planning to change the motor before I go again. As you can tell, I enjoy trying different combinations as much as I enjoy the races themselves.


Daren

 

Like all of us, how fast you go is quite dependent on how much you spend in S/E. As long as your car can qualify far enough under your chosen index based on weight and factored horsepower, you don't need the fastest...only if you end up laddered with the same class when it turns from a bracket race to a heads-up race.

My two cents on S/E vs. us...they do a better job than most of us at taking weight off the front, placing it near the rear, and maximizing the effective torque of the motor vs. traction available. Next, I think too many of us still have this fascination with our cars being "street cars."

Yes, most of us still have our cars tagged and insured, but would you really be comfortable on a long trip in the thing? When I was 20 years younger, I had a 13.5:1 compression '69 Camaro (mid-10's on street tires, with no A/C, heater, nothing)...drove it in the Texas heat all the time as it was my only car. Would I do that again, no way. First, as we get older, we tend to have more income and don't have to have only one car, plus, our priorities and expectations change.

That said, take a bit of gear and converter out of a S/E, and it would closely represent a lot of our "street" cars that we so love to race. Yes, I do drive my "street" Formula on occassion, but I sure as hell don't want to do the HOT ROD Power Tour in it or anything of the sort.

So, in summary, S/E cars should be ENCOURAGED to participate as we can all learn from them and each other. Other than the Top Gun-type classes, most of us are not really racing for the money...the money is a bonus, but we race to see, be seen, meet up, etc.

I was glad to see Daren's S/E out at Bowling Green last year...glad he had the courage to bring it out to an internet-based event. Take care. Dave

 

Daren are you going to the IHRA race at TMP this weekend?

 

If this is an indication, Tom Rhoda's '02 Formula was recently for sale in National Dragster, fresh and ready to run in A/FIA (same class as Corda), for the bargin price of: $50K! No spares, no trailer, and it's not even the quickest car in the class, but a damn competitive one, and it's a national event winner as well.

I love stock eliminator because it's the closest thing to a bracket class without back-half cars and the electronic super gas/comp/street or hot rod/super rod/quick rod class BS. But I think most guys that run Stock are guarded with their stuff b/c of the edge they want. Read my post about my most recent bracket race and I'll bet a stock guy wouldn't give 2 cents to help you unless you were also running stock or you were friends. I'm not trying to bash or get under anyone's skin; just my 2 cents. My favorite part of the Gatornationals every year is Friday morning watching 1st round of stock and super stock eliminations. Shame they didn't run class eliminations this year, I love that as well!

Agreed somewhat. I have yet to find a posi/locker that will stand up to regular abuse of racing every weekend and not break or freewheel one tire. You have to learn to drive on the street sensibly but I've had one for 5 years now and had 0 problems. Dangerous can apply to anything more directed at racing than street. Example: an armed nitrous system in a kid's car on the street.

okay I'm off my

Derek

 

No. I was at Kanawha Valley, WV last weekend. If you go up there, I would suggest going Saturday, so you can see the Top Stock show on Saturday afternoon and evening. I believe that the Stockers may get an extra qualifying pass on Saturday morning if the weather holds Friday.

Take Care,

Daren

 

I'd love for SE guys to be here -- I can't say I follow the class closely, but I think its one of the coolest corners of the drag race world. Its impressive the power level and the efficiency in how its put to the ground. We could learn a lot if some of the SE guys came over to share the wealth

 

Once you see the details of an s/e engine, its not really surprising to see that they make as much power as they do. The secret to the power is in the details, details used that most people, even knowledgable engine builders wouldn't think about, yet when presented with the info would say "Damn, is that all they do?" And yes, they do stretch the rules quite a bit, but thats part of the challenge, seeing what you can get away with without getting caught.