fastlif

iTrader: (1)

give me any M6 car and each of us make 5 passes, best 3 of 5 wins. now someone just donate their car for the abuse.

Mike Hoffpauir

A4's are quicker because they consistantly prove to be. The quickest bolt on car is an A4. The quickest cam only car is an A4. The quickest cam and heads car is an A4.

It takes far less to run a mid 1.6, mid 1.5, and mid 1.4 60' in an A4 than it does an M6.

I have raced my car since day 1 and am still on the stock tranny with B&M shift kit and cooler installed at aboout half way in.

98TAauto

iTrader: (2)

ohh goodie i love these topics <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Personally I think autos are the only way to go at the track. Now if you want to have fun and kick a@@ from rolls then a M6 is the way to go. But nothing beats a A4 off the line and in consistency <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

but stock for stock on the street a A4 will probably win till the 1/8th, then the M6 will catch up and pass(driver mod)

Bob Cosby

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmm.. some of the quicker cars actually "step down" from their bigger first gear ratios. TH400 to Powerglide swaps for example.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree. However, they have a torque converter that can make up for that. Additionally, a proper converter will let you keep the engine in a very narrow rpm band - if done correctly, very close to max HP all the time. A manual will always lose/gain more rpm.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When you have enough power, that lower first gear ratio actually helps.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It can help from the perspective that you have less of an rpm drop between 1st and 2nd gear. If that is what you based that statement on, then I agree with you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Talking stock motors, sure that first gear helps. But, nobody said you couldn't change the rear gears to boost the overall drive ratio.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Correct. However, you can only boost gear ratio's to the point that you don't "run out of gear" in 4th.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am cutting 1.4s with one of the heaviest NA cars out here, and I only dump the clutch at 4500 rpm, on 28" tires. The gearing ratio isn't even taxed for me, if I dump at 5K or higher, I spin. That higher 1st ratio wouldn't help me. Just an example.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is a function of traction. If you can't launch higher because of traction, then that is a whole nuther issue. This is why I stated in my first post "everything else being equal".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">An excellent driver can be deathly bored in an A4, and an average driver can have loads of fun in a manual </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That may indeed be true, but "fun" is not what I based my response on. The issue was "quicker" and "why".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A clutch doesn't make you quicker, it simply connects the engine and tranny. A converter does make you quicker, by its torque multiple. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I disagree with this statement. Certainly it won't make as big of a difference as a converter does with the A4, but even a good aftermarket street clutch can make a tenth or two difference over a stock one - depending upon how good/bad the stock clutch is to begin with.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bob, Judson's SS is cutting mid 1.3X 60' times, at 3200 lbs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What kind of manual is it? If it is a T56, then I am definately impressed. If it is a Jerico or better, then that's a whole different story, as now you're talking a race tranny with a race clutch, and will quickly change my tune if that is what we wish to turn this discussion to.

Final comment (for this post)...if I were to buy another LS1 F-body, I'd get a A4. Don't care of some think it is boring...we all have our personal preferences, and that is mine...for an LS1 F-body. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

Mike Hoffpauir

4th gear? http://users.ev1.net/~ynot_dv8/10_84RunB.mpg

You were having shifting problems in BG last year, right?

PontiacFireTA

who says autos are no fun.. you still shift them.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Lost

iTrader: (2)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Final comment (for this post)...if I were to buy another LS1 F-body, I'd get a A4. Don't care of some think it is boring...we all have our personal preferences, and that is mine...for an LS1 F-body. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am shocked to hear this Coming from Bob C, who
is one of the best power-shifting SOBs this side of BFE.....

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

You are correct Mike, that 10.84 was coasting thru third gear. Wouldn't go into 4th properly. Same tranny I had last year in BG. Its getting grumpy in its old abused age and likes to be warmed up before making a pass. Time for a sychnro rebuild, but its served well.

Bob, Jud's car is a Jericho road-race tranny, it still requires a clutch and can be downshifted. Retail on one of those trannys is about $3K, which is comparible to the race built auto trannys.

Bob Cosby

Ok, as I said, if we're talking aftermarket tranny's like the Jerico's, then things do indeed change. That said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bob, Judson's SS is cutting mid 1.3X 60' times, at 3200 lbs. Only the transbrake A2/A3 cars are coming close to that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Jerico should be compared to 'glides and A3's with brakes, because the Jerico is race-bred transmission with (no doubt) a racing clutch.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A properly setup manual can easily hang with or beat an Auto. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In race applications, I agree.

<small>[ December 18, 2002, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Bob Cosby ]</small>

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

Bob, what would you characterize as a "racing" clutch, and how do these help more than just good aftermarket clutches like we typically use? Are you talking about adjustable slip types?

My Cartek single disk has a bronze/ceramic disk, but drives like stock on the streets and has a very easy engagement/disengagment. No chatter either. Is it a racing clutch or a stock replacement "performance" clutch?

I'm not too familiar with the advantages of a racing clutch. I just want it to hold a dump and let me shift.

-Tony

Colonel

Now Joe, I thought you, of all people, would know the answer to this.

Anyway, being the helpful person I am I'll toss you a bone...

It depends on the setup and the trannys in question as to which is quicker.

Having said that, I'll be running a well built Powerglide in my new setup. Some folks say Powerglides can be built to only draw 7 HP. Talk about efficient! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" /> They're super light and VERY strong too. <img border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" title="" src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" />

Bob Cosby

I suppose what is considered a "racing clutch" could probably turn into the same kind of discussion as what gear would be considered "non-streetable". IMHO, what you described is simply an upgraded performance clutch. I actually use a stock clutch, as it holds my mild combination quite well. If I thought I could pick up ET with a better clutch, I'd do it in a heartbeat. However I'm about 200 HP and 400 lbs shy of what your clutch has to live through. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

A racing clutch is likely going to have an adjustable pressure plate, be designed to slip upon initial engagement - and possible more, and not be streetable in the sense that you could move cleanly away from a stoplight. They may or may not have more than one disc, along with other features. Just ask Judson what he uses. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

Trevor @ Texas Speed & Perf.

iTrader: (3)

Man, I LOVE these topics. Thanks Joe. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Trevor

badass 2002 z28

iTrader: (5)

First off let me say that i have an auto and i still manually shift my car.

Secondly, Autos or 6speeds for drag racing? hmmm lets see now...

Auto's:
1- it takes alot less money to go fast in an auto
2- Auto's are more consistant during shifts & 60ft
3- Auto's are alot more forgiving on rear ends

Manuals:
1- you need a build rear end right away to go even somewhat fast.
2- They need a high dollar clutch that'll only last about 6 months at a time.
3- Even the best drivers have missed a shift before

Which is more fun? that depends on the driver..i've owned a 2000 M6 and currently a 2002 A4.

These topics are always interesting, so there was my two bits <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

ChrisV 02 - Z28

iTrader: (1)

I have driven nothing but manuals (4 total camaros), i honestly hate an automatic, because it is very boring to me to be behind the wheel and just sit there.

I agree that for Drag racing you want an auto,
but i prefer autocrossing, where the M6 will rule! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Villain281H

iTrader: (5)

Both my cars are autos. I would have liked to find a used 6-speed formula, but instead found an a4.
My Nova has always had a TH350. Reason: bracket racing. You want to make the car repeatable between rounds. If I didn't bracket race my Nova and it was a cruiser, it'd probably have a 5 or 6-speed! But I have seen sooo many races lost by missing third in a manual car, that they have mostly disappeared from bracket racing.
However, there are some manual-driving fools out there! (Tony, another bone tossed your way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> ) First repeat NHRA Stock Eliminator champ in 26 years, Kevin Helms. 1969 Camaro 396/375 hp car. Try hooking that on 30 x 9 slicks. Now add the fact it's in B/S class. Yep a 4-speed. But he probably has a bad-*** transmission, and maybe (can't remember if these are legal in stock) an inline Long shifter.
Manuals are fun to drive, but manually shifting my Nova at 6500 rpm is fun too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
And Tony, believe me I agree with you on luck involved in bracket racing, and I've had it with me, and against me. I think however if you are a serious bracket racer (points chaser, or every week running a race, etc), you will probably win more races on skill than luck.

Sorry soooo long, my $.02

Derek

Colonel

Funny how much what's "fun to drive" varies from one person to another. I have both an M6 SS and an A4 Z28 sitting in the driveway. Same color, same options. I've had the SS for about 1.5 years. It has about 9600 miles on it. The Z28 I've only had for a couple of months and I've already put over 7200 miles on it!

So, to me, the A4 with a good TQ converter is far more fun to drive than the M6. Anybody wanna buy a slightly used M6 SS? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

Toxic Texan

Hey I like racing from a roll and being able to talk on the cell phone at the same time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" /> It makes for a good kill story. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

promod1955

iTrader: (44)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Villain281H:
<strong>Both my cars are autos. I would have liked to find a used 6-speed formula, but instead found an a4.
My Nova has always had a TH350. Reason: bracket racing. You want to make the car repeatable between rounds. If I didn't bracket race my Nova and it was a cruiser, it'd probably have a 5 or 6-speed! But I have seen sooo many races lost by missing third in a manual car, that they have mostly disappeared from bracket racing.
However, there are some manual-driving fools out there! (Tony, another bone tossed your way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> ) First repeat NHRA Stock Eliminator champ in 26 years, Kevin Helms. 1969 Camaro 396/375 hp car. Try hooking that on 30 x 9 slicks. Now add the fact it's in B/S class. Yep a 4-speed. But he probably has a bad-*** transmission, and maybe (can't remember if these are legal in stock) an inline Long shifter.
Manuals are fun to drive, but manually shifting my Nova at 6500 rpm is fun too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
And Tony, believe me I agree with you on luck involved in bracket racing, and I've had it with me, and against me. I think however if you are a serious bracket racer (points chaser, or every week running a race, etc), you will probably win more races on skill than luck.

Sorry soooo long, my $.02

Derek</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">you will win more races on skill then luck. i'm an every weekend points chaser in a 67 nova ss powerglide car. i race at a track with very good racers who just about every year win at least 1 class at the division finals and i finished 2nd in points so hopefully youll look twice at what i have to say. i run the non electronic class and every serious race car is an automatic. (not taking anything away from people who have manuals and are serious.) in the electronic class only 1 car is a manual. does that tell you something. someone made a coment about if you want to just have fun then yes get a m6. i couldnt agree more. but if you are a serious bracket racer get an automatic. i have tons of fun driving my automatic nova running 10.30's and have even more fun in my automatic pontiac running 7.90's. i dont get how someone in a manual car can come up to me and tell me if im having fun or not racing. to each his own and have fun at what ever you do. just dont tell someone if there having fun or not like some of you are hinting around.

and colonel about the powerglide being stong, ive seen guys run 7.20's with them in bodied cars and 6.70's in dragsters with no problem. i do suggest you get a deadenbear case though.

<small>[ December 18, 2002, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: promod1955 ]</small>

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

Okay guys, tell the truth, how many of you bought automatics because your wife or girlfriend couldn't drive a manual?

<img border="0" alt="[jester]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_jest.gif" />

Derek, I consider it mostly skill if you win bracket racing consistently. Last year when I was bracket racing every week at HRP, I won 5 consecutive events in the 9-11 second class. In each event, I was the only manual out of about 20-25 cars. The announcer at the track even started letting everyone at the track know I was the only manual in the class and had won X times. Pretty funny! Also, how about Coach, he won a TON of bracket events this year with his M6.

My very first car was an auto. 1969 Camaro with a TH350. Good from a stop, but horrible from a roll. Fun car, but not nearly as fun as my old high school girlfriend's 89 Saleen 5-speed.

-Tony