Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Anyone want to guess what kind of 60's i can get with a 100 shot on top of my 388 rwhp, with a 12 bolt 3.73, spec stage 3, and nittos?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You wouldn't be able to spray off the line with nittos, unless you had a fancy progressive controller. Even then it would take some driving skill (A4 guys get scared reading that).

I'd say low 1.7s if your track is decent. On nitrous off the line, 1.8s spinning like a ****.

Put some real slicks on there and go cut some 1.50s, its more fun <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Tony

Mike Hoffpauir

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by RAGEman:
<strong> Well, FWIW, not to disrespect my idol, the Colonel, my goal is to get within half a tenth of Mr. Hoffpauir's 1.45 60' with my cam-only setup. That would be pretty respectable. If I can get that 60' with the same raceweight and DA that Mr. Hoffpauir did, I think it's pretty safe to say that the 6-speed will come out on top, since my MPH would likely be in the 125+ range. Wouldn't you think? My point is that if the 6-speed can get CLOSE to the A4's 60's, the difference in horsepower lost through the drivetrain ought to put the 6-speed even with (or maybe even quicker than) the A4. But, then again, I don't really know what I'm talking about. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="gr_emb.gif" /> Just my $.02.

What are your thoughts on that, MIKE HOFFPAUIR?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Alan, you are forgetting to even the horspower, which was a stipulation of Mr. Greg Fell's. Conduct your mind-experiment with the same amount of horsepowers in view, and let us know how it turns out. Unless you think my *little 226 cam is making as much power as your 232 240 cam? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="gr_emb.gif" />

Greg Fell

iTrader: (9)

Yeah I think slicks are in my future. 5000 RPM nitrous launches would be a hoot! Then I could ET for sure, huh? waaaaaaahooooooo

RAGEman

iTrader: (4)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Mike Hoffpauir:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by RAGEman:
<strong> Well, FWIW, not to disrespect my idol, the Colonel, my goal is to get within half a tenth of Mr. Hoffpauir's 1.45 60' with my cam-only setup. That would be pretty respectable. If I can get that 60' with the same raceweight and DA that Mr. Hoffpauir did, I think it's pretty safe to say that the 6-speed will come out on top, since my MPH would likely be in the 125+ range. Wouldn't you think? My point is that if the 6-speed can get CLOSE to the A4's 60's, the difference in horsepower lost through the drivetrain ought to put the 6-speed even with (or maybe even quicker than) the A4. But, then again, I don't really know what I'm talking about. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="gr_emb.gif" /> Just my $.02.

What are your thoughts on that, MIKE HOFFPAUIR?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Alan, you are forgetting to even the horspower, which was a stipulation of Mr. Greg Fell's. Conduct your mind-experiment with the same amount of horsepowers in view, and let us know how it turns out. Unless you think my *little 226 cam is making as much power as your 232 240 cam? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="gr_emb.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good point, Mike. But, Mr. Fell's stipulation was equal flywheel horsepower, not rear-wheel. Part of my point was that with equal setups, the 6-speed will put down more power to the ground, giving it a chance to catch up to the A4 at some point in the ¼-mile (hopefully). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" />

So, I'll admit that using my personal goal of eclipsing your ET wasn't the best example. I'm a moron. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="gr_emb.gif" />

<small>[ March 13, 2003, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: RAGEman ]</small>

RAGEman

iTrader: (4)

Oh, BTW, Mike, I don't think that with all other variables being equal your 226 cam will dyno as much as my 232/240, but as far as me vs. you, did you ever get yours dynoed?

You're not mad at me for going after your record, are you? I don't want anyone to be mad at me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="gr_sad.gif" />

The Juggernaut

iTrader: (7)

*If* the 60' is the same,the M6 will win.

Nineball- All things being equal,an M6 will
NEVER beat an A4 to 60'.

Mike,Alan...don't forget to include me in your
'cam only' dispute. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
Cammed and caged by the 3rd week in April. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" />

Mike Hoffpauir

Rageman, I'm not bitter. I hope you meet your goal. I never down someone for trying to go fast.

In these short messages we write, it is difficult to understand if someone is upset or not.

I've never interpreted your posts in a negative way, and in that same light, you have no reason to interpret mine in a negative way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />


In this question being asked I have to wonder about the 330 and 1/8th mile. Wont the a4 car run a uqicker 1/8th mile?

RAGEman

iTrader: (4)

Sean, I didn't forget about you. But, you don't even have your cam yet!!!

Mike, it's all good. I was just checkin'. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> I'll be trying again for the 10.XX's likely NEXT weekend.

RAGEman

iTrader: (4)

I would think the A4 would still have the advantage at the 330' and likely at the 1/8-mile. If the 6-speed ever broke even, I'd think it to be somewhere between the 1/8 and the ¼-mile. Just using my own screwed-up little brain.

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nineball- All things being equal, an M6 will NEVER beat an A4 to 60'</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">All things being equal huh? Okay, take a stock A4 on drag radials and a stock M6 on drag radials. No converters or aftermarket clutches or gears. I guarantee I'll beat that A4.

I've been racing LS1s for 5 years now, saying "Never" is a BIG statement. Please answer this question for me:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Find me an A4 car that ran 10.6 or better, all-motor, with the stock (unmodified 4L60E), a converter with less than 3500 stall, and over 3625 lbs. What were their 60' times?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">PS, Weatherguy's car is the closest A4 street car with a stroker and a tight converter which was similar to my combo, and he only ran 10.9s on the same night I was running 10.6s, his car is similar weight, similar engine, just had a tight converter (less than 3500) and couldn't cut those awesome 1.3s like some rare cars do.

Find me ONE example that fits all of those categories above and runs quicker than my car did.

You guys give A4s too much credit. Shifting gears doesn't slow you down if you know what you are doing. Its the 60' times that are hard to reach in a manual car. Once that is the same, its anyone's game.

Tony

The Juggernaut

iTrader: (7)

Tony-
I was implying converter cars.
stock for stock,the M6 will win.
You are correct,sir!

Colonel

I see that alot of people think a high stalling (say a TP4600) but efficient converter (%95) is only better than an M6 for the first 60 ft. I disagree. I think it still has a distanct advantage in the '330, a small advantage in the '660, and just may be equal to the M6 through the rest of the 1/4...especially if we lock the converter at the proper point in 3rd. I wouldn't be surprised to see it come very close to the M6 trap speed, all else being perfectly equal including gearing.

Now, make it a 3500 stall and I agree...the M6 wins the race if the 60ft is the same.

Tony, you say M6s can launch like autos if you spend the money. What's the best LS1 NA 346ci M6 launch you know of? I say 346ci and NA since traction becomes such an issue if we're talking large CI...especially with power adders. At that point you're just comparing available traction.

M6 guys, install 4.30-4.56 gears if you want and a badass clutch. Launch at 7000 RPM if you fancy. You still can't pull 1.3 60s NA with a hydraulic cammed 346ci (remember Raughammer's afformentioned 1.38?)

Greg Fell

iTrader: (9)

Whooooweee we have a good discussion going, huh?

From my humble point of view, I'm only 'worried' about 'tight' converter'ed cars, ie 3500 or less. Not to start a war or flame, etc, but the 4400 stall guys can have their 60's, personally it would drive me bonkers driving a car day in and day out with that loose of a vert. Maybe I'm just a big sissy!

I'm not regretting my M6, for me personally there is more than ET at stake, I go from a roll, I love banging gears, blah blah blah.

RAGEman

iTrader: (4)

If were ever to run a gear/tire setup similar to the Coach (5.13's and a 30" slick), I could slap a set of LS6 heads on my car and I'd be shooting for low 1.4's...1.38 sure would be pushing it, though. Campbell just doesn't count. Anyway, disregard everything I just said since it's only speculation unless someone buys me a daily driver car, the gears, the slicks, and the heads. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

I will say that I'd like to hit 1.4's with my cam-only M6 N/A. As I mentioned in another post, I managed not one but two 1.52 60's (God only knows how), but managed to tag the rev limiter in first gear both times and miss second. <img border="0" alt="[bang head]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_banghead.gif" /> I think I was getting some pretty good chassis flex coming out of the hole, though, so hopefully the upcoming suspension/chassis mods I'm getting this weekend will cure that, and I'll be able to launch a little more consistently. Well, this thread is obviously not about me, but I just thought I'd tell you guys that I have aspirations to become the hardest-launching 6-speed driver around. <img border="0" alt="[driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" />

Another point I'd like to make is that the T56 could stand a little more tranny gearing, especially in first, and maybe 2nd. We are lacking in that department too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="gr_sad.gif" />

Colonel

"Another point I'd like to make is that the T56 could stand a little more tranny gearing, especially in first, and maybe 2nd. We are lacking in that department too."

I agree with that. 1st feels like you're starting off in second. <img border="0" alt="[barf]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_barf.gif" /> 'Course, if you had Coach rear gears it'd be just right! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

Campbell's 1.38 60' time wasn't a consistent short time. I think he only did it once, and I was at the track that night. It was one of those rare super-hooking nights, and the air was just right.

Most 346ci M6 guys don't spend the money on chassis and suspension upgrades. Very few in fact. Most 346ci A4 racers do go with loose converters, its simply more common.

Remember, Judson was cutting 1.2s at the Shootout with a clutch. With the proper setup, anything is possible.

Tony

Colonel

"Remember, Judson was cutting 1.2s at the Shootout with a clutch. With the proper setup, anything is possible."

And when I see that with an M6 I'll be damn impressed.

Bull_in_a_china_shop

iTrader: (1)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nine Ball:
<strong> Greg, the only advantages of an A4 setup are:

1. Cheaper to make 60' well
2. No driver skill required


Tony </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">C'mon.. no skil?? reaction time etc
let me continue...
3. Faster shifts (sorry studs but humans CANT be as fast as a computer system)
4. Consistent!
5. No missed shifts
6. all things being equal BETTER 60's

With my setup I LOVE the a4, m6'ers always have the high and mighty thing goin on, which i dont get?? its apples and oranges, not We are manly and autos are Dumb! And how much "skill" does it take to row the gears in a straight line?
*cages rattling*


1.7's are FUN
Wait till my 114lsa goes in!

later
BIACS

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">C'mon.. no skil?? reaction time etc
let me continue...
3. Faster shifts (sorry studs but humans CANT be as fast as a computer system)
4. Consistent!
5. No missed shifts
6. all things being equal BETTER 60's

With my setup I LOVE the a4, m6'ers always have the high and mighty thing goin on, which i dont get?? its apples and oranges, not We are manly and autos are Dumb!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">3. Except when that computer system isn't programmed properly, and the engine hits the rev-limiter, or torque management kicks in, or the tranny slips and doesn't shift at all. How many M6 guys have you heard blame their poor ET on "the wrong shift points". LOL

4. Consistency is also driver-related. I placed 2nd at the Thunder Shootout in the bracket event. I ran 0.01 seconds off my dial-in in the finals. Manuals don't make a car inconsistent, the DRIVER does. (read: skill)

5. See number 3 for examples

6. There can't be "all things equal" if there are two different transmissions involved.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And how much "skill" does it take to row the gears in a straight line?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Have you tried it? Don't speak before you have, its not as easy as it seems. I'd be willing to bet you $100 cash that if you and I were to get into two stock LS1 f-bodies, one manual, one A4 and go race at the track, I could run damn near the exact ET as you could in the A4, but would we both run the same ET in the M6? SKILL would determine that. If you have the skills, then thats great. They aren't required for an A4.

Tony

Greg Fell

iTrader: (9)

You can have your 1/8 mile. Havana is such a fun track, dirt, local yocals etc.

How those autos do from a roll? <img border="0" alt="[driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" />

.....AND my comp cam 224 from sped inc is now sitting on my desk care of ups sooooo..... THe best is yet to come!

I thought converters were the best mod hmmmmmm???? 5 tenths from cam?

<small>[ March 14, 2003, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Greg Fell ]</small>