for the sake of argument
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From: Baton Rouge, LA
Re: for the sake of argument It cracks me up to read Tony's sermons on manual transmissions.
http://users.ev1.net/~ynot_dv8/10_84RunA.mpg
http://users.ev1.net/~ynot_dv8/10_84RunA.mpg
Re: for the sake of argument Ummm...just because the computer controls the shifts doesn't mean the shifts are instantaneous. There's still a given amount of time it takes for the mechnaical parts to do their respective jobs to make the transition each time. You say it's not possible for a human to shift as fast as a computer. There isn't any way possible to measure the amount of time it takes to make a shift in either tranny or else I'd take you up on that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
Re: for the sake of argument Hey Mike, I think running a 10.84 without going into 4th gear is pretty good. How about the other videos?
I never said I was a perfect driver, but I did say it takes alot more skill to drive an M6 car than it does an A4 car. I'll always stand by that statement.
Tony <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_images/icons/tongue.gif" />
I never said I was a perfect driver, but I did say it takes alot more skill to drive an M6 car than it does an A4 car. I'll always stand by that statement.
Tony <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_images/icons/tongue.gif" />
9 Second Club
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From: VA
Re: for the sake of argument One key thing not mentioned here is that a properly tailored converter will multiply torque well past the 60 ft. and also allowing to get the car in the powerband quicker..something a clutch cant do unless down the road that make what the "ford" guys call slipper clutches..but even still a clutch wont multiply torque like a converter will..
Re: for the sake of argument </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Colonel:
<strong> "Remember, Judson was cutting 1.2s at the Shootout with a clutch. With the proper setup, anything is possible."
And when I see that with an M6 I'll be damn impressed. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ugh Colonel, now it's a T-56 vs a "race" M4 huh???. So what if Judson has a Jerico, it's actually a road race tranny and doesn't give any more advantage over a T56 other than weight and durability. It's not like it's one of those clutchless transmissions. And Nineball is right about Raughhammer's 60', not to take anything away from him he's an awesome racer and knows his **** but again there wasn't/aren't many M6 cars with a 3000 lb raceweight at a well hooking track with a -2000000000000 DA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_images/icons/tongue.gif" /> After all Colonel, Raughhammer did manage to out 60' even you with less power and more weight <img border="0" alt="[evil]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" />
<small>[ March 14, 2003, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: Linear Velocity ]</small>
<strong> "Remember, Judson was cutting 1.2s at the Shootout with a clutch. With the proper setup, anything is possible."
And when I see that with an M6 I'll be damn impressed. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ugh Colonel, now it's a T-56 vs a "race" M4 huh???. So what if Judson has a Jerico, it's actually a road race tranny and doesn't give any more advantage over a T56 other than weight and durability. It's not like it's one of those clutchless transmissions. And Nineball is right about Raughhammer's 60', not to take anything away from him he's an awesome racer and knows his **** but again there wasn't/aren't many M6 cars with a 3000 lb raceweight at a well hooking track with a -2000000000000 DA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_images/icons/tongue.gif" /> After all Colonel, Raughhammer did manage to out 60' even you with less power and more weight <img border="0" alt="[evil]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" />
<small>[ March 14, 2003, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: Linear Velocity ]</small>
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From: Your Reality Check Bounced...
Re: for the sake of argument </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Colonel:
<strong> I think with the RIGHT converter, it's a VERY close race even if the M6 driver really knows what he's doing. The key being, the RIGHT converter. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Preach on Brotha!! My Vigilante is extremley efficient on the big end...
<strong> I think with the RIGHT converter, it's a VERY close race even if the M6 driver really knows what he's doing. The key being, the RIGHT converter. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Preach on Brotha!! My Vigilante is extremley efficient on the big end...
Staging Lane
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 65
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From: New Mexico
Re: for the sake of argument It's all pretty simple actually. Horsepower being equal, a high stall auto will beat an M6 99% of the time.
M6 trannies in F-bodies have a 2.66 1st gear ratio. Autos are 3.06. Quite a big difference there. Also, a little off the subject but...an M6 with 4.10 gears has LESS GEARING than a STOCK Mustang GT or earlier Cobra (non 03 Cobra) with 3.27s. That is why you can only beat an auto with a converter with more power (torque) or changing out transmissions (Jerico, etc). Once you start making lots of power, a 4.30 or steeper gear ratio will cause you to shift into OD....effectively slowing you down. There's just nothing you can do about...the M6 F body transmissions aren't geared for optimal 1/4 mile performance.
M6 trannies in F-bodies have a 2.66 1st gear ratio. Autos are 3.06. Quite a big difference there. Also, a little off the subject but...an M6 with 4.10 gears has LESS GEARING than a STOCK Mustang GT or earlier Cobra (non 03 Cobra) with 3.27s. That is why you can only beat an auto with a converter with more power (torque) or changing out transmissions (Jerico, etc). Once you start making lots of power, a 4.30 or steeper gear ratio will cause you to shift into OD....effectively slowing you down. There's just nothing you can do about...the M6 F body transmissions aren't geared for optimal 1/4 mile performance.
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Re: for the sake of argument i just ran 12.27@111 1.81 60ft on GSC-S.stock internals,3520 raceweight.no pulley,no ls-6 intake.id like to see an m6 do that.6speed can run just as fast,there just more expensive and are harder on parts.
Re: for the sake of argument ahhhhhrrgghhh flame-age! we all have our likes dislikes etc. Yes i've had several manuals so i understand bout 3k feathering launch etc. and in the 1/4 couse theyre gonna et close how about an 1/8 mi tho <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" /> ?
Ha so i guessI should flame you back, Tony... your point then is that youcandriveastickreallyreallyfastfasterthananautoc anshift?
j/k homz either way we all gots nice rides! All i be saying is that my a4 keeps impressing more each time I mod it!
AND my comp cam 224 from sped inc is now sitting on my desk care of ups sooooo..... THe best is yet to come! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[worship]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" />
Ha so i guessI should flame you back, Tony... your point then is that youcandriveastickreallyreallyfastfasterthananautoc anshift?
j/k homz either way we all gots nice rides! All i be saying is that my a4 keeps impressing more each time I mod it!
AND my comp cam 224 from sped inc is now sitting on my desk care of ups sooooo..... THe best is yet to come! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[worship]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" />
Re: for the sake of argument </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Utsu:
<strong> Once you start making lots of power, a 4.30 or steeper gear ratio will cause you to shift into OD....effectively slowing you down. There's just nothing you can do about...the M6 F body transmissions aren't geared for optimal 1/4 mile performance. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why do you say that? Define lots of power? A M6 can run 4.30 gears and a 26" tire w/ only 3/4" of growth and trap 130mph@7000rpms in 4th. People making that kind of power should have a good enough valvetrain and shortblock where they wouldn't worry about running it upto or past 7000K.
later,
Steve
<strong> Once you start making lots of power, a 4.30 or steeper gear ratio will cause you to shift into OD....effectively slowing you down. There's just nothing you can do about...the M6 F body transmissions aren't geared for optimal 1/4 mile performance. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why do you say that? Define lots of power? A M6 can run 4.30 gears and a 26" tire w/ only 3/4" of growth and trap 130mph@7000rpms in 4th. People making that kind of power should have a good enough valvetrain and shortblock where they wouldn't worry about running it upto or past 7000K.
later,
Steve
Re: for the sake of argument I'll give Nineball, Rageman, Jason99T/A, 01-Z, and all the other M6er's a lot of credit.
From when I started racing my LS1 all the way up to my bolt-on best of 11.79 I thought it was pretty easy and I thought sure I could do this w/ an M6 too. Now, with heads and cam I find myself using both hands on the wheel a lot more to keep it straight and I can't imagine how I would react or how frustrated I would get having to use both hands on the wheel plus having to shift correctly, smoothly, quickly, and consistently.
I'll give it up for the M6er's. <img border="0" alt="[driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" /> But, I still love my A4. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
later,
Steve
From when I started racing my LS1 all the way up to my bolt-on best of 11.79 I thought it was pretty easy and I thought sure I could do this w/ an M6 too. Now, with heads and cam I find myself using both hands on the wheel a lot more to keep it straight and I can't imagine how I would react or how frustrated I would get having to use both hands on the wheel plus having to shift correctly, smoothly, quickly, and consistently.
I'll give it up for the M6er's. <img border="0" alt="[driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" /> But, I still love my A4. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
later,
Steve
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From: Troy, AL
Re: for the sake of argument "After all Colonel, Raughhammer did manage to out 60' even you with less power and more weight"
Actually, no. I've pulled a few 1.37s with my A4 and my A3. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_images/icons/tongue.gif" /> But you're right, his 60s are much more impressive given his power and weight. I shoulda been pulling low 1.3s but I never found the traction to do so. It's coming though. <img border="0" alt="[burn out]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_burnout.gif" />
T56 v/s race M4? Huh? I think we were talking about M6s v/s autos??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
These cars come with A4s and M6s. A4s have pulled MANY, MANY, MANY 1.3s. I haven't seen many (if any?) M6s doing that.
<small>[ March 15, 2003, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Colonel ]</small>
Actually, no. I've pulled a few 1.37s with my A4 and my A3. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_images/icons/tongue.gif" /> But you're right, his 60s are much more impressive given his power and weight. I shoulda been pulling low 1.3s but I never found the traction to do so. It's coming though. <img border="0" alt="[burn out]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_burnout.gif" />
T56 v/s race M4? Huh? I think we were talking about M6s v/s autos??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
These cars come with A4s and M6s. A4s have pulled MANY, MANY, MANY 1.3s. I haven't seen many (if any?) M6s doing that.
<small>[ March 15, 2003, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Colonel ]</small>
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From: Objects in mirror no longer matter.
Re: for the sake of argument If both cars got to the 60 foot mark at the same time and both had equal flywheel power, the M6 would edge out the auto due to less drivetrain loss and better mechanical torque through the gears.
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From: Kentucky
Re: for the sake of argument I dont know too much technical stuff as far as the A4 vs M6, but one thing I do know is that Ive held off too many to count, M6 cars with more power for longer than a 1/4 mile. The reason I know they have more power is because they have turned around and taken me from a roll. I love my A4 and would never go to a M6. And I only have a small ST3500 and 3.23 gears. Ive even came out of the hole side by side with them and the converter has still allowed me to pull ahead of them in first and second, with them fetching SLOWLY after that. I couldnt imagine with a larger stall like a 4400... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
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From: Troy, AL
Re: for the sake of argument "You went on to say that when you see that in an M6 you'd really be impressed, which means you were implying that Judson's Jerico gave him some advantage over a T56 other than weight and durability,"
What is the 1st gear ratio of Judson's Jerico? I don't know but I would guess it's numerically lower than the pitiful 2.66 of the T56. If so, then yes, that would be an advantage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
What is the 1st gear ratio of Judson's Jerico? I don't know but I would guess it's numerically lower than the pitiful 2.66 of the T56. If so, then yes, that would be an advantage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Re: for the sake of argument Is SAM's Jerico one that has clutchless shifting or did we ever determine that? I'd love to have one of those.
I think a T400 with a 2 step would be hard to beat.
I think a T400 with a 2 step would be hard to beat.
I can shift faster than you.
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From: Baton Rouge, LA
Re: for the sake of argument </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nine Ball:
<strong> Most 346ci M6 guys don't spend the money on chassis and suspension upgrades. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with Tony on this. You CAN get a M6 to leave just as hard an A4. It does take quite a bit more money though and much tweaking to get it there.
My 346ci motor cut a 1.43 60' last time out. I was still sorting out the suspension (only my 6th pass) and NPR wasn't hooking as well as it normally did (it was a Test 'N Tune). I still need to put the battery in the trunk, so I think there is some left in the 60'.
Jason
<strong> Most 346ci M6 guys don't spend the money on chassis and suspension upgrades. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with Tony on this. You CAN get a M6 to leave just as hard an A4. It does take quite a bit more money though and much tweaking to get it there.
My 346ci motor cut a 1.43 60' last time out. I was still sorting out the suspension (only my 6th pass) and NPR wasn't hooking as well as it normally did (it was a Test 'N Tune). I still need to put the battery in the trunk, so I think there is some left in the 60'.
Jason
Re: for the sake of argument Colonel, I'm not saying the A4's aren't more consistent and better at cutting 60' times. Again, the point I was trying to make is your rebuttle to Nineball's remark of Judson cutting 1.2 with a manual tranny. You went on to say that when you see that in an M6 you'd really be impressed, which means you were implying that Judson's Jerico gave him some advantage over a T56 other than weight and durability, which is the only point of yours that I'm refuting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> BTW, your car is much prettier than Raughhammers <img border="0" alt="[chug]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_chug.gif" />
Re: for the sake of argument </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nine Ball:
<strong> A4 car that ran 10.6 or better, all-motor, with the stock (unmodified 4L60E), a converter with less than 3500 stall, and over 3625 lbs. What were their 60' times?
Tony </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Who cares about unmodified 4l60e? Isn't this site and all of us here all about modifications? I have a stock short block so I am not in the 10.6 range NA but I have run a best 10.35 and very consistent 10.5's on n2o with a "stock" 4l60e and a vig 3600. This tranny only has a transgo kit. And this is with at least a 3550# car with a low 1.4 60's. I just dont see the "unmodified" argument. I mean if we wanted stock cars we would all drive a Ford Taurus.
SM
<strong> A4 car that ran 10.6 or better, all-motor, with the stock (unmodified 4L60E), a converter with less than 3500 stall, and over 3625 lbs. What were their 60' times?
Tony </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Who cares about unmodified 4l60e? Isn't this site and all of us here all about modifications? I have a stock short block so I am not in the 10.6 range NA but I have run a best 10.35 and very consistent 10.5's on n2o with a "stock" 4l60e and a vig 3600. This tranny only has a transgo kit. And this is with at least a 3550# car with a low 1.4 60's. I just dont see the "unmodified" argument. I mean if we wanted stock cars we would all drive a Ford Taurus.
SM