Attention all T-Top cars
08-23-2003, 10:46 AM
#102
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
Re: Attention all T-Top cars I have alos been in contact with the NHRA on this matter, along with mgmt. at HRP. I am waiting for further word from NHRA on this. The inital word I got from NHRA is that many track require you to run without T-Tops. If so, the car is open cockpit and requires a rollbar. With T-Tops in the car is solid roof, and can run to the 11.99 mark. I was not able to speak with Danny, but spoke with one of the other officials in California. I will be raising this issue, and it means all Corvettes other than a Z06 and a great amny other cars will be affected.
Here is my correspondence from Gerald, and my reply.
Here is Gerald's reply.
I have had conversation with NHRA and Lynwood our Drag Strip Manager regarding this issue. NHRA has had an informal policy over the years that T-tops and the like should be treated as convertibles. It has been related to us that this will be a written rule in 2004 and should be enforced through the informal policy used over the past several years.
We are encouraging NHRA to obtain information from Detroit on strength and survivability of the various semi-complete hardtops. We are recommending that there be a separate time break for these vehicles before a roll bar is mandated. In the meantime our policy will be modified as follows: All semi-hardtop cars (T-tops, Targa tops, Sunrrof tops, etc . . ) which are 100% stock will be allowed to run the elapsed times that they are designed for "From the Factory" any modifications to a semi-hardtop vehicle may result in it being treated as a convertible.
I hope this clarifies our position and shows how we are working on moving forward.
Thanks for your inquiry and patience while we get a confirmed answer that everyone agrees upon.
Respectrfully,
Gerald
Here is mine:
Thank you Gerald for your time and attention in this matter. It is of concern for me because the issue of street racing has been in the public eye quite a bit lately. If extreme measures are enforced, it makes the prospect of attracting those who might other wise “take it to the street” much more likely. I understand the need for rules and regulations for everyones’ safety, and have no issue with that. I do believe that NHRA does need to take a second look at their safety regulations. My reason for saying this is that the car from Detroit and around the world continue to get faster. My own car (a stock 2002 Z06) Corvette has run faster than an 11.99 in as delivered from the factory condition. The addition of a set of drag radials could propel the car in to the 11.50’s without any issue whatsoever. Several of my friends own newer model Vipers. In a recent run at another track here in Texas a new Viper with an inexperienced driver and only 400 miles on the car went an 11.86 in warm summer weather. Come winter time, and with a bit more seat time, I feel sure this car would be in the low 11’s. 2003 Vipers are convertibles, so from the factory they are completely in violation of the rules set forth by NHRA. Add to that fact the horsepower wars heating up between Europe and America, the GTO, the AMG Mercedes, 3 and 5 series BMWs, the new Mustang, possibly the new Camaro (it is built) will all be low 12 or even 11 second cars from the factory in semi-skilled hands. The new Corvette scheduled for next year in a base model will have 400 HP, and the new Z06 scheduled for the following year will have around 500 HP on tap while being 200 lbs lighter than today’s car. That means that a new 2006 Z06 will be in the very, very low 11’s as delivered from GM on a good track like HRP, and with any simple bolt on modification like headers and drag radials it will most likely dip into the 10’s.
Again, I understand that NHRA has the safety of everyone in mind, however, safety innovations in newer automobiles has come along way from the safety equipment that exists (or in this case doesn’t exist) in my 67 Camaro, and 72 Nova. My Corvette will out accelerate, out handle, and out stop either of these cars. Also, in the event of an accident my odds of survival without injury are much higher than in one of my classics with the advent of airbags, crumple zones, etc.... I hope that NHRA will look at how automotive design and safety have advanced, and where performance is going so that those of us who own these cars will have a place where we can enjoy them legally. I know that the IHRA has upped their rollbar rule to 11.49 from NHRA’s 11.99 which does make things a bit easier.
My hope is that NHRA and the weekend hobbist can find a common ground that we can all work within the framework of.
Thank you for your time and attention in this matter.
Respectfully,
Here is my correspondence from Gerald, and my reply.
Here is Gerald's reply.
I have had conversation with NHRA and Lynwood our Drag Strip Manager regarding this issue. NHRA has had an informal policy over the years that T-tops and the like should be treated as convertibles. It has been related to us that this will be a written rule in 2004 and should be enforced through the informal policy used over the past several years.
We are encouraging NHRA to obtain information from Detroit on strength and survivability of the various semi-complete hardtops. We are recommending that there be a separate time break for these vehicles before a roll bar is mandated. In the meantime our policy will be modified as follows: All semi-hardtop cars (T-tops, Targa tops, Sunrrof tops, etc . . ) which are 100% stock will be allowed to run the elapsed times that they are designed for "From the Factory" any modifications to a semi-hardtop vehicle may result in it being treated as a convertible.
I hope this clarifies our position and shows how we are working on moving forward.
Thanks for your inquiry and patience while we get a confirmed answer that everyone agrees upon.
Respectrfully,
Gerald
Here is mine:
Thank you Gerald for your time and attention in this matter. It is of concern for me because the issue of street racing has been in the public eye quite a bit lately. If extreme measures are enforced, it makes the prospect of attracting those who might other wise “take it to the street” much more likely. I understand the need for rules and regulations for everyones’ safety, and have no issue with that. I do believe that NHRA does need to take a second look at their safety regulations. My reason for saying this is that the car from Detroit and around the world continue to get faster. My own car (a stock 2002 Z06) Corvette has run faster than an 11.99 in as delivered from the factory condition. The addition of a set of drag radials could propel the car in to the 11.50’s without any issue whatsoever. Several of my friends own newer model Vipers. In a recent run at another track here in Texas a new Viper with an inexperienced driver and only 400 miles on the car went an 11.86 in warm summer weather. Come winter time, and with a bit more seat time, I feel sure this car would be in the low 11’s. 2003 Vipers are convertibles, so from the factory they are completely in violation of the rules set forth by NHRA. Add to that fact the horsepower wars heating up between Europe and America, the GTO, the AMG Mercedes, 3 and 5 series BMWs, the new Mustang, possibly the new Camaro (it is built) will all be low 12 or even 11 second cars from the factory in semi-skilled hands. The new Corvette scheduled for next year in a base model will have 400 HP, and the new Z06 scheduled for the following year will have around 500 HP on tap while being 200 lbs lighter than today’s car. That means that a new 2006 Z06 will be in the very, very low 11’s as delivered from GM on a good track like HRP, and with any simple bolt on modification like headers and drag radials it will most likely dip into the 10’s.
Again, I understand that NHRA has the safety of everyone in mind, however, safety innovations in newer automobiles has come along way from the safety equipment that exists (or in this case doesn’t exist) in my 67 Camaro, and 72 Nova. My Corvette will out accelerate, out handle, and out stop either of these cars. Also, in the event of an accident my odds of survival without injury are much higher than in one of my classics with the advent of airbags, crumple zones, etc.... I hope that NHRA will look at how automotive design and safety have advanced, and where performance is going so that those of us who own these cars will have a place where we can enjoy them legally. I know that the IHRA has upped their rollbar rule to 11.49 from NHRA’s 11.99 which does make things a bit easier.
My hope is that NHRA and the weekend hobbist can find a common ground that we can all work within the framework of.
Thank you for your time and attention in this matter.
Respectfully,
in your general path of direction.
08-23-2003, 09:54 PM
#104
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Re: Attention all T-Top cars I know this has already been said, but f-bodies are NOT the only cars with t-tops! Vettes had them, Mustangs had them, and even Grand Nationals had them! There are lots of different cars that came with t-tops. I think the Grand Nationals will be hurt worse than us (f-bodies) on this whole issue. Sure there are more of us running around stock or near stock that won't be able to race at the track, but there are a lot or Grand National owners that sure don't want to cut up their well kept stock beauties that you always see at car shows. 
I feel for them the most. I'm all for being safe but isn't that what the waiver you sign is for? Kind of like... "race at your own risk."
Example: motorcylce helmet laws... if I rode a motorcycle for I sure as hell would wear a helmet even if I was in a state that didn't require me to (which I am). But if a guy wants to ride his bike without a helmet... it's his head! He's doing it at his own risk without putting anyone else in danger, and that's cool with me. I'm sick of these McDonalds coffee spillers ruining it for the rest of us. "Oh... I didn't know the coffee was hot. [or] I didn't read the label on the cigg package that said tobbacco smoke causes lung cancer." Give me a friggin break! Put something about the dangers of t-tops in the waiver and say "race at your own risk!" I just cannot comprehend why a t-top car should be put in the same safety class as a convertable. That makes no since to me! Everyone knows t-tops are sturdier than a vert! That's why the original rule was put in place separating them! 11.99 and 13.99... has HRP, and NRHA for that matter, done ANY research on the safety of t-tops vs. verts?!?! Or even new cars vs. old!?! It also makes no since that as the cars get safer the rules get tighter.
I know this rule is not NHRA official yet but I will be boycotting HRP and other tracks that do this. And if all else fails I will make a roll cage out of black spray painted PVC pipe!
Sorry for beating the dead horse but I had to put in my $.02
I feel for them the most. I'm all for being safe but isn't that what the waiver you sign is for? Kind of like... "race at your own risk." Example: motorcylce helmet laws... if I rode a motorcycle for I sure as hell would wear a helmet even if I was in a state that didn't require me to (which I am). But if a guy wants to ride his bike without a helmet... it's his head! He's doing it at his own risk without putting anyone else in danger, and that's cool with me. I'm sick of these McDonalds coffee spillers ruining it for the rest of us. "Oh... I didn't know the coffee was hot. [or] I didn't read the label on the cigg package that said tobbacco smoke causes lung cancer." Give me a friggin break! Put something about the dangers of t-tops in the waiver and say "race at your own risk!" I just cannot comprehend why a t-top car should be put in the same safety class as a convertable. That makes no since to me! Everyone knows t-tops are sturdier than a vert! That's why the original rule was put in place separating them! 11.99 and 13.99... has HRP, and NRHA for that matter, done ANY research on the safety of t-tops vs. verts?!?! Or even new cars vs. old!?! It also makes no since that as the cars get safer the rules get tighter.
I know this rule is not NHRA official yet but I will be boycotting HRP and other tracks that do this. And if all else fails I will make a roll cage out of black spray painted PVC pipe!
Sorry for beating the dead horse but I had to put in my $.02
08-24-2003, 07:21 AM
#107
Re: Attention all T-Top cars Well all 93 to present F bodies are the same up top, hardtop cars have a fiberglass cover where the tops go, underneath that cover is the exact sam roof as a T top car, I do understand NHRA's consideration in changing the rule. If this type of car EVER got upside down or worse yet upside down on the guardrail it would be ugly.Consider the minor bolt on LS1 car will run upwards of 110 MPH, upside down at 110 MPH would suck. But I am a true street/weekend warrior racer, I do not like the rule. I will find a place to run, on or off track. This rule will bring back weekend street racing, just the way I like it.
David
David
08-24-2003, 02:33 PM
#109
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Re: Attention all T-Top cars
BOYCOTT all NHRA tracks and events. That rule is BS.
08-25-2003, 01:12 PM
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Re: Attention all T-Top cars vette, your ignorance in this matter amazes me. The hardtop f-body is the same construction as the t-top underneath the glue-on plastic roof panel. I'm familiar with this because I rolled my hardtop 93 firebird formula when I passed through a T-intersection at over 100 mph and left the road. I rolled the car several times, a witness told me 3. The a-pillar on the passenger side was the only part that moved, the b-pillar took a hard hit and did not crush at all. I walked away with minor scratches.
Your opinion that it will flatten the top is pure BS.
Eric
Your opinion that it will flatten the top is pure BS.
Eric
08-25-2003, 01:24 PM
#112
TECH Senior Member
Re: Attention all T-Top cars "That car would have run completely through an Fbody...."
That's an assumption. Your daughter might have been just as safe in an F-body. You don't know, neither do I. We are both ignorant in that way.
I agree with Eric that your opinion that it will flatten the top of a T-top car is wrong. I've seen many rolled F-bodys and the vast majority of them were not flattened. And as has been stated many, many times, a T-top F-body cas the same structual integrity of the "hard" top. If a T-top car needs a rollcage at 13.99, then so does a hardtop
Ignorance simply means not knowing about something. It's not an insult so don't take it that way. I am also ignorant to many things...we all are. However, how safe a Chevy II feels when racing at the track or at high speed is not one of the things that I am ignorant about.
That's an assumption. Your daughter might have been just as safe in an F-body. You don't know, neither do I. We are both ignorant in that way.
I agree with Eric that your opinion that it will flatten the top of a T-top car is wrong. I've seen many rolled F-bodys and the vast majority of them were not flattened. And as has been stated many, many times, a T-top F-body cas the same structual integrity of the "hard" top. If a T-top car needs a rollcage at 13.99, then so does a hardtop
Ignorance simply means not knowing about something. It's not an insult so don't take it that way. I am also ignorant to many things...we all are. However, how safe a Chevy II feels when racing at the track or at high speed is not one of the things that I am ignorant about.
08-25-2003, 02:42 PM
#113
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Re: Attention all T-Top cars I run at a NHRA track, but have not had any trouble for running in the 11s right now.
I guess they just aren't paying attention to the rules. I guess, though, if the car needs a cage to be raced, it will get one. I don't have as much fun street racing as at the race track, and the track is way safer.
Later,
Jordan
I guess they just aren't paying attention to the rules. I guess, though, if the car needs a cage to be raced, it will get one. I don't have as much fun street racing as at the race track, and the track is way safer.
Later,
Jordan
08-26-2003, 08:51 PM
#114
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Re: Attention all T-Top cars "I've seen many rolled F-bodys and the vast majority of them were not flattened. "
I not only have seen them, I flipped one at 85 mph
Don't ask how...These cars didn't earn the crash rating for nuttin'...
I not only have seen them, I flipped one at 85 mph
Don't ask how...These cars didn't earn the crash rating for nuttin'...
08-28-2003, 09:21 AM
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Re: Attention all T-Top cars For a thread over on www.superstockforum.com where you have to use your REAL name. NHRA posted this to clarify the rumormill...I've been interested in it to as I may have other reasons one of these days to change to a 10-pt, but not just yet. 
Clarification on T-Top Rule
The NHRA Technical service department has fielded numerous questions, concerns, and opinions about a rule change that has been circling through Internet chat rooms and local tracks concerning T-Top design vehicles for the 2004 season.
No rule change is being implemented for T-Top design vehicles. A roll bar will be mandatory in all cars, including T-Tops, which run 11.00 to 11.99. A roll cage is required on all vehicles 10.99 and quicker.
"This rumored change is false," said John Miller, Senior Technical Communication Specialists. "As a technical staff, we have reviewed the subject and do not see a need to change the classification of a T-Top vehicle from following the same guidelines as a hardtop to that of a convertible design."
NHRA Info
Clarification on T-Top Rule
The NHRA Technical service department has fielded numerous questions, concerns, and opinions about a rule change that has been circling through Internet chat rooms and local tracks concerning T-Top design vehicles for the 2004 season.
No rule change is being implemented for T-Top design vehicles. A roll bar will be mandatory in all cars, including T-Tops, which run 11.00 to 11.99. A roll cage is required on all vehicles 10.99 and quicker.
"This rumored change is false," said John Miller, Senior Technical Communication Specialists. "As a technical staff, we have reviewed the subject and do not see a need to change the classification of a T-Top vehicle from following the same guidelines as a hardtop to that of a convertible design."
NHRA Info
