And you could invite Jim Winn and his 4-linked LT1 as well. Like I said before it's LS1Tech (LSXTech if you will), not stock suspended torque arm non relocated this that the other thing racing. Make up your minds. IMO, Showcase the motors and the cars not the suspension. If this was the TorqueArmTech Racing series I could see the point but I'm just not getting all the bashing. I understand the need for a level playing field, that's why other groups institute weight restrictions and other penalties to try to make the cars equal. This place is looking like Romper Room.

Tweaked II runs a 448 ci Bowtie block. Both motors are pretty similar actually. I just don't think it's going to be worth Lawrence, Dave, Chris, Gene and Mikes time to come down. They haven't made it to many NMCA races this year.

 

Sounds good to me! :p

 

Correct me if Im wrong, but THUNDER RACING and MADMAN are both promoting these races and not LS1tech.com.

Therefore, its not LS1/LT1 based vehicles, it IS IN FACT stock suspended f-bodys.

 

So you gonna be runnin' the WS6 Curt?

 

Curt, I fully understand both of Madmans rules and Thunders rules. Both are very straight forward. Thunder has been very accomodating to allow ARE to participate. However, where this thing has turned is now, suddenly, Madman's race is now being slated/used as the defacto template for all future LXX potential races. I have a lot of respect for both Jay and Brian. But I think a lot more needs to be done for any future races in this area before this becomes the standard.

As far as Madman's race, I was actually hoping that the rules would be more accomodating to allow ARE and Madman to compete head to head. I know that still is possible according to Thunder's rules. I find it rather interesting that the race that many of us who have waited a year to see happen after last years Thunder event is now not going to happen because the rules were conveniently constructed to prevent that (specifically in Madmans race, read on). If that is not the case, why are these rules being reiterated this late in the year? Don't you think that the rules could have been clearly stated up front when the race was announced? When the race was even mentioned initially by Madman the underlying taunting of an ARE vs Madman matchup was certainly a part of it. I spoke to Wade and they were pretty pumped about going to race in Madman's race. Now we all know where that's gone as of recently.

My vote is that those of us who have a vested interest in seeing the potential reality of a racing series come to light, is that we meet up and discuss it. I don't want to see a race turn into the defacto standard for all future ones like it because one of the racers has more say than any of the others. That's synonymous with Larry Dixon and John Force running the NHRA rather than competing in it. Another good reason to consider, car count has been so spectacular that in our infancy that we can afford to exclude people from the races with a big sign that says race cars not wanted, we have enough.

 

Im driving the TA down to spectate Todd, but not racing. LOL

 

What's with the conspiracy comments Derty?

It just aint' like that at all.

Folks have been discussing suspension rules for this Big Dawg race behind the scenes for like 6 months. Even when the ARE car was barely ahead of everyone else, the suspension was in question by some folks.

I encourage that other guy to get rid of his 4-link if he ever wants to hit one of our races. That is not in the spirit of our SCENE.

We collaborate and cooperate.

We do not have much room for folks who swim sideways while we are trying to standardize the scene.

I dealt with a lot of this stuff back in 2000-2001 when Chris Endres and I put on the NFRA race.

Derty without rules how on Earth would your car be competitive if someone showed up with the same combo as you slammed to the ground with coil overs and ladder bars?

 

I know of atleast 15 cars, and I'm sure there are a lot more then just here on LS1 tech that fit the rules. Why make an exception for 1 car? 15 vs 1? hmmm It's not that we're excluding them, we're giving them chances to change or send pics. If they're car fits the Canadian league then that's fine, that's where they do most they're racing anyways. They can build another car or change the current car to fit the new rules. Canadian football doesn't have the same rules as NFL. Same story different ballgame. Maybe they've been watching to much football Aren't the fields more narrow in Canada?

 

What's really interesting to me (besides the fact Dave wouldn't answer my tranny question) is the fact that you guys keep saying that the rules were specifically set to keep the ARE car out when time and time again the only thing that was asked of ARE was to send pics so the people that put on the race could decide if it was gonna fly or not. Please tell me what is so hard to understand about that since they have yet to even comply? That makes me think they have/had no intention of ever coming and this rule made it an easy escape...

 

Could be an easy out or maybe they don't want to show what's truely done to the car???

 

Ya we are scared to come down and win $4k + the other $2k, with a 1/2 sec faster car Thats why we're trying to get out of it. OK COURSE WERE COMING DOWN WE HAVE A GOOD CAR RIGHT NOW!!!!
There is no need for pics, I told you what is done, it has been allready deemed illegal ( we all know why) The pictures won't help any so why bother. If you think I'm a liar, then you are very wrong. How about we run on a weight break, say 3200lbs instead of 3000lbs...

 

We also show up to races, Bowling Green for 2 years in a row, Richmond, Chicago, Grand Bend, London, Toronto, etc. We support the F-Body C5 scene as best as we can and maybe more then any others in this race. We sponsor 4-5 F-Body shootouts a year up here and in the USA, we give away heads/cam packages at some of them to help you guys, and also put money up for clubs.

I am dying to see the car count down there, maybe a handfull if your lucky. I also have cars showing up for that big dawg race, so don't count your money yet!!! Now I know why MADMAN didn't show up in Bowling Green, he DOESN'T have Enough and still doesn't, even though he is the RUN WHAT YA BRUNG type of guy!!! BRING IT ON !!!!!

I know if Lingenfelter was around, he wouldn't be SCARED!! I think the same goes for MTI and Cartek, they are solid.

You can bash me all you want, but we are down to earth guys and can handle losing. We broke a tranny earlier this year... The fastest car doesn't always win! We would also help any racer if they have problems, even if they are in our classes. We look for competition! Makes you work a little harder! It was great going back and forth with the LPE car... DOnt know what else to say, but this a sad day for F-Body racing when we move our LCA's and shocks in 2 inches, yet others have shortened torque arms, race sway bars, front end limiters and wheelie bars and mini-tubs.

 

Oh YA, for the car second to Madman, please make a race and deem him illegal so you can win. Thats the way to do it.

But then again, you can't blame him, a FULL OUT Big Cube 15degree SBC aftermarket everything against stock block guys, easy win... easy money right! Good thinking!

 

Wow things have really got out of hand here.

I have a hard time believing that these rules were set to simply rule out ARE. Ive never met Madman and my only experience with Diluca was a shared elevator ride at the first and only NFRA race. Both guys however seem like honest to god good guys. Madman has been more than helpful on a few recent phone conversations concerning my entry to this "big dog" race. Dave also seemed more than willing to help in a couple email conversations I've had with him awhile back. I hope people arent getting the wrong idea of you guys by this thread. Competition brings out the best and worst in people, this thread has brought out the worst in alot of you guys and I hope some sort of resolution can be made.

I personally dont care if they moved the lca's and shocks. Car looks and runs great. But im a pretty easy going guy and I'd like to see F-body racing take off. Heck ive told many guys here that im only giving it one more season and if something doesnt show some promise im putting a 4 link along with my 106mm turbo engine in and moving on to another series. So in my mind I say let them run the race. Whats it really gonna hurt? I think a friendship between 2 of the top f-body shops is more important than something like this splitting up the community.

So hopefully all that rambling made some sense to someone LOL!!!

Take Care
Darren Harden

btw.... I think both of them should be affraid of the little SB2.2 Headed LT1 that has them both easily covered on Horse Power!

 

I don't make this out to be a conspiracy. I question the timing of the reiteration. Rolling rule changes in the middle of the year are very frowned upon by any level. If a rule change was made in the middle of the year to address safety issues that's one thing. But if the NHRA, NMRA, NMCA changed their basic rules mid year there would be a lot of problems. That's why they are stated up front. That's the only thing I question here, that and why is this rule even made up when it only eliminates one car that we all know of at this time. That's a pretty bold move this late in the year, no matter how often it was discussed throughout the year.

Also John, let me ask you this, was Wade ever called about this before? Not in mere discussion at PRI or any side bar comments. Did you or anyone else acting in the offical capacity of LS1Tech call over to ARE and ask him? Was he ever asked about his opinion in the context of an LS1Tech series rules establishment? Did you also do the same for Lignefelter, East Side and any other shops? Were they all provided the opportunity to communicate with each other outside of the flaming that goes on here when stuff like this comes up?

I know this is Madman's race, not anything related to Thunder or any underlying foundation for an LS1Tech series at this point. But the underlying tone that these rules will likely turn into the series rules is a problem. Considering that some of the existing racers would possibly go unconsulted on the establishment of rules gives me some mixed feelings about it.

As far as the ladder bar comment, I held my own just fine last weekend. But you wouldn't know that because I don't post every time I race now do I. The rules were constructed to make both our cars competitive. If a ladder bar or 4-linked LT1 or LS1 competed against me and I didn't show up with enough to race them, that would be my fault not theirs. Like I said earlier, if the fast cars progress to be faster than those that currently make up the fast car list then they either need to step up or step back. That's life in racing, some will need to get over it. Personally I'm considering the step over to a chassis car myself. It's financially more justifiable to myself and opens up more competitive opportunities. Whereas if I have a chassis that basically consists of a nice roll cage and some trick "stock" suspension pieces I really don't have much to recover when I decide to do something else in life do I? That's a smart move on Jim's part, I guess that's why he's into banking.

There are already a fair number that are on the bubble and need to make their decisions on how to remain competitive. I know some are stepping it up, others are probably idling and some are broke or broken (take your pick). I'd like to see the progression of all cars, not just my car. Rules definitely make that possible, but they are typically fair and not exclusionary. This brings in more competitors and more comptetitors brings more money to the table and makes it more exciting for the fans. If the fans get excited the series grows. If it's the same old showing it's going to get boring, FAST!

 

We did not change anything to accomodate ARE. We have stated that our final rules are set, although I've never heard Madman have a final set of rules until now. I can tell you this much though, our rules will change next year and cars like the ARE suspension will NOT be allowed to race. We have to draw the line somewhere and for now it going to be here for us. I really feel like that is taking it too far to be called stock suspension. The TA and swaybar things that people are refering to is accepted by NHRA Stock classes and that's good enough for us. Also, the moving of the LCAs and shocks would never fly in NHRA Stock Eliminator.

On a side note: I know Madman pretty well and I'm a very upfront person and if I disagre with him or anyone else I'll let 'em know. Madman did not make any rules to target a singe car nor is he afraid to race or even lose to ARE. Brain is a racer to the truest since of the word, and a true racer is never scared or embarrassed to lose anyone. The fastest cars don't always win.

 

CT aint scared !!!!!!

 

It is too bad ARE wont be able to race against the SBC cars.

So are you saying Paul that ARE will not be able to race next year in the TR racing series either?

Are the SBC guys allowed to compete in the TR race series or will they have their own seperate Madman defined rules?

It would suck that the fastest LS1 in the world would not be able to compete at a shootout.

What is the LS1Tech series going to do? Are they going to rule against the ARE car as well?
Chris

 

Not with the suspension set-up they have right now. It has nothing to do with ARE, no one will be allowed to race with the suspension modified like that. You keep wanting to make this about everyone aganist ARE but it's not. They made the suspension set-up that goes against "stock suspension" rules therefore taking themselves out of competition. If they want to race with everyone else then it's simple, change the suspension back.

I would love to see ARE come down here and race, same track, same day, same rules. It doesn't get any more fair then that.

 

Chris - As far as LS1Tech races go, we are going to look to stock mounting points for the suspension, I think that Paul's comment about Stock Eliminator rules is very relevant.

What you also need to keep in mind Chris, is that now that there might be enough Big Dawg, or shall I saw "Outlaw" cars to complete a field there is need to standardize rules. To a large extent the rules would need to follow the spirit of the scene, which is stock mounting points.

FWIW I think that Madman's car does not have 15 degree heads.