Maybe there is a solution?

Maybe ARE and MADMAN can runs heads-up against each other outside the class?

Put up the cash and go at it?

That might be interesting...

Chris

 

Jay, I would like to know in your thoughts, pretty reasonable guy, on how a 12" shorter torque arm versus a moved in lower control arm 2 inches, is an advantage of one over the other. If anything, a short torque arm is way more advantageous and both are not in stock locations, BUT the LCA's are STILL in Stock holes.
Your thoughts on advatages would be great, please show me the difference between the first shortened torque arm and everybody following, and moved in LCA's which I'm sure people will follow in the near future.

 

I think this about says it all. Alot of the faster cars you see that is where they are all over the track..on top end. All the really fast cars..pro stock..etc. are slammed for this same reason. You can say it was all for looks..and that may be the reason they did it, but the simple fact is that is is an advantage. Moving these mounting points make the lowering of the car possible...so moving these mounting points gave the car an advantage in my eyes. The line has to be drawn somewhere. I'm sure that ARE could throw their drivetrain in another car and come run it. I'm sure they would have lots of doner cars with a suspension stout enough to handle that power up there. The question would be then..can they hang on to it on the top end when its dancing all over the track.

Once again...an uninvolved opinion. All these guys are way to fast for me.

 

I think santions back in the Mustang days we're written as, stock locations must be within 4-6 inches of Bone Stock locations. I am talking early days way before 5.0, its hard to remember, but that is how they got past this. Slowly some suspension parts ran better , and everybody in the long run ended up with the same setup. Maybe a rule such as this could be our missing link.

 

You may be right Dave. It could be that more people will do something like sucking in LCAs so they can tuck tires. Hell, before this year I dont think anyone in our little community had gone voer 160mph and now you guys are pushing 170 with the silver car.

Who knows.

Growing pains suck huh? LOL

 

My car is on the side of the house totaled...I laugh at you guys getting all pissed off....you guys need to back up, chill and try to find a viable solution for future fbody racing

 

Dave, are you guys coming to the event regardless whether or not you race in the :Big Dog" race? I for one would love to see the car run down the track.
Am I correct that the car IS legal for the Thunder Shootout?

Tim

 

Since the NMRA is doing so well. heres a cut from the Drag radial class. Which happends to be stock suspended. Just insert 3-link for the 4 link.

3.4 SUSPENSION, REAR

REAR SUSPENSION: Stock type suspension and stock 4 link permitted. Rear shocks and springs must be in factory location. Coil-overs prohibited.

Stock Type Suspension: Stock type suspension may utilize aftermarket, direct replacement type suspension components including aftermarket replacement shocks, springs (in factory location), and/or control arms. All stock type 4 link suspensions must maintain stock lateral angles and attachment points, but may be moved up or down on rear axle. Aftermarket torque arms permitted.

3.4a) 4-LINKS: Stock or stock type 4 links required. All stock type 4 link suspensions must maintain stock lateral angles and attachment points, but may be moved up or down on rear axle.

3.4b) LADDER BARS: Prohibited.

3.4c) REPLACEMENT CONTROL ARMS: Replacement upper and lower control arms permitted. Control arms may use any type bushing, bearing, or rod end. Control arms may be adjustable to any length.

3.4d) PANHARD BARS: Panhard bars permitted to control lateral movement of rearend housing. Panhard bars must be located aft of rearend housing, and control only lateral rearend movement. Panhard bars may be welded.

3.4e) SWAY BARS: Aftermarket or factory sway bars permitted. Aftermarket sway bars may be welded to both chassis and rearend housing.

3.4f) TORQUE ARMS: Permitted.

3.4g) REAR SHOCKS & SPRINGS: Stock replacement shocks & springs accepted in stock location only. Coil over shocks prohibited.

3.6 WHEELIE BARS

WHEELIE BARS: Prohibited.

Also i dont think any class gets more "Hairy" on the big end then Drag radial classes. And theese cars dont have the 325/50's tucked......

 

Are isnt going to change thier kickass car for one race, we all know that. If its godfatherd in and they win, then there will be another thread of bitching. I know i'm not a suspenion or chassis man, but am heavily involved in another project. Wade, send them pics to someone to post them to see what you did, the way i am hearing it, is that you read between the lines and did your homework, Props to you. Yes it probobly is an advantage, but noone has done it yet because it wansn't needed, yet.

 

I want to know how moving the LCA on the other side of the mount is any different than having relocation brackets?? Someone please explain how relocation brackets be allowed? That's definately not stock location. Nor is the torque arm issue. Why is everyone avoiding this question?

 

Well said, This thread would be a lot smaller.....hahahahahaha

 

i agree with cablebandit.

you guys are completely forgetting to have FUN

my worthless opinion.. if madman's tq arm doesnt pivot from the stock point then he is not stock suspension... if you want to blur 'similar' then ARE is 'similar'...also there are what? a whopping 7 cars in this shoot out? wooow.. how about getting tight up on the rules when you have 30 cars trying to get in? the only way to get this stuff to grow is by being inclusive

 

Yeah the thread would be alot smaller, but who cares? So my opinion on this is less "worthy" because I don't have a "big dog" car?

I'm in the building process of my car, and I like how the ARE car sits. I'm thinking about doing the same thing, and so this "rule" is something i question because it would knock ME out of racing. How can relocation of parts to help aid in traction be allowed, but to help stability at the top end NOT be allowed? Our cars are getting up there in trap speeds. Maybe this is the next mod to do to help. We can move our LCA's along the y-axis, but not on the x-axis? Just don't get it. Then again, i'm a small dog.

Give ARE a 50lb weight penalty and let's get down. We all want to see it happen with ALL the fast cars. You all know what it runs. It's not like it's some huge secret. Hell, what if PaiN brings his car out and it's running 8.10's? All this would be a waste.

 

I thought I might stay quiet on this...but pffft...why not.

It's obvious whose opinions are biased and whose aren't on this thread. I for one am curious as to why there still has been no pictures provided to settle this. I know ARE never intended on coming down here anyway since they have complained about the haul more than enough times (not necessarily on this thread)...but to all the ARE supporters it would sure be nice to quiet some folks down if pictures were sent so some type of ruling could be made.

There are more than enough people that could take the pictures and people have even stepped up to volunteer yet we see nothing. That in itself makes me question some things...

Either way, some of the mods you guys have been spouting off about not being "legal" have been around for years now. ARE's mod is the first anyone has seen. How is any sanctioning body suppose to let something fly when no one else has it and no one is allowed to see it? Or do we all need to roll up across the border for an invite?

Everyone is about the same thing...wanting a series of races, wanting corresponding rules, and wanting to have fun. The internet seems to stiffle that sometimes

 

WEll you don't have to worry cause that ain't gonna happen :p

 

Also Madmans TA is NHRA legal for Stock Eliminator cars which yall should know is about the only suspension peice that can be changed on those cars. All other peices including LCA's are stockers with plates welded on to increase strength. And again, a shorter TA hurts a car, a longer one has more leverage to transfer and pick up the front end.

 

I agree with that, so lets talk about the girl in the sig

 

on the other hand ARE knew that they were going to have a problem with thier suspension being approved earlier this year at the PRI show. And others will put their two cents in because they are probobly building a car for next year.

 

"Jay, I would like to know in your thoughts, pretty reasonable guy, on how a 12" shorter torque arm versus a moved in lower control arm 2 inches, is an advantage of one over the other. If anything, a short torque arm is way more advantageous and both are not in stock locations, BUT the LCA's are STILL in Stock holes.
Your thoughts on advatages would be great, please show me the difference between the first shortened torque arm and everybody following, and moved in LCA's which I'm sure people will follow in the near future."

Dave,

From our experience, the shorter torque arm is advantageous on stock to mildly-modified combinations because the shorter instant center allows for both quicker suspension movement and greater tire force. Also, it is much easier for BMR, Spohn, and others to mass produce torque arm kits with a more universal front mount (weld in crossmember or tunnel brace) rather than include specific trans crossmembers for each trans/model year combination. For high horsepower combinations such as yours, we find the longer instant center provided by a stock length arm allows for greater control of the suspension. In this instance, we are normally trying to reduce tire force because of the violent wheelstands common in quicker cars. In addition to torque arm length, another method used to reduce tire force and to tame a violent combination is to lower the ride heigth (center of gravity). Which brings us to the subject at hand. I honestly do not see a suspension advantage by moving the shocks and/or control arms. HOWEVER, the lower center of gravity allows a much greater amount of power to be applied through the first 330 ft of the run. Aside from the greater stabilty at high speeds, the advantage as I see is the abilty to control engine torque much better than any of the other cars involved. 60 ft. times do not tell the whole story. While the wheelies are cool to photograph, they are not exactly the quickest way down the track. Provided the car has enough horsepower to make it work, a low slung, stiff car will most likely be faster and more consistent.

If we disallowed aftermarket torque arms and anti-roll bars as some have suggested, who would be there? However, if there is a future for heads-up f-body racing, the lines need to be drawn now. I do agree with you on one thing:

"moved in LCA's which I'm sure people will follow in the near future"

Where does it end? First, moved lca's. Second, ladder bar mounts on the side of the center section instead of the factory provision. Next, raised quarter panels to facilitate larger wheel tubs. If everybody wants to race in their own town with their own rules, then so be it. However, if there is enough interest to expand this series, standardized rules need established now.

On a side note, I am still confused as to why things were moved around if the stock spring location remains, albeit with a smaller diameter spring. We have used this spring configuration with the production frame mounts before without the need to move anything. We use our chrome moly lca's with offset bushings in the production mounts. Even with the smaller diameter, the spring is still the primary tire interference. Whatever the case may be, I respect your accomplishments and your business. At 167mph, no one here doubts the amount of heat under the hood.
Jay Billingsley

 

Last time I checked it was LS1Tech NOT I repeat NOT "BIG DOG" Tech . Our opinion should matter just as much as the next guy because without the puppies first there will never be another "BIG DOG" to grow up to... The most important issue here is that someone is going to the trouble of putting on a race for our "style" cars that's ******* awsome...ARE make the haul, show up! The comments are being thrown around that people are affraid of the big bad silver wolf maybe so but if you want to race so bad why not make the effort to do it the way the rest of the so called "BIG DOGS" are doing it. Prove a point! **** a picture bring a few jack stands with you and show everybody how insignificant your changes really are if they really are that small?????Possible Your still being given the opportunity to race, so race. No excuses, obviously the combo doesn't help you on the short end so why do it(because maybe it helps I repeat helps (A.K.A. advantage) on the long end)You can't get pissed when your the one black sheep in a field of alot of fast cars who have managed to do it without moving LCA's or a W tire. I don't know everything but I do know it's a long day and the fastest car doesn't always win! So it's not the money race/none of you guys are in this for the money! It's a long haul for most so why don't we all make it and try to get this LS1 race series off the ground...
Once again just a small dog here waiting till Nov so he can go racin... I feel that was about 25 cents worth to anybody that cares... LOL One last final thought the "fastest" LS1 shouldn't be crowned by running just a meer time it should be crowned by winning an LS1 event... Being November=no more racing soon for us guys up North what a perfect time of year to crown a new champion!!!