DYNO RESULTS - Patriot LS6 style heads + G5X-3 cam...
11-24-2003, 09:27 PM
#61
FWIW - I still want to see the graph - can't tell everything by the peak numbers.
Just looking at the peaks they seem low IMO as my car is within 5rwhp and makes more torque. My car has 4.10's, much smaller cam, doesn't have a true underdrive pulley and lacks an LS6 style head. It seems his peak numbes should be well above mine all things considered.
Depending on where the cam is degreed in at the P to V might be tigher on intake or exhaust as I understand it. Since the intake valve is (by most anyway) regarded as the most critical valve event, getting the intake events where you want them (degreeing the cam in) might in some cases result in the exhaust being tight on P to V. Usually it's tighter on intake like you mentioned.
Just looking at the peaks they seem low IMO as my car is within 5rwhp and makes more torque. My car has 4.10's, much smaller cam, doesn't have a true underdrive pulley and lacks an LS6 style head. It seems his peak numbes should be well above mine all things considered.
Originally Posted by Beast96Z
Your saying you'r having to cut on the exaust side? I was under the impression that the intake side was the only thing needing to be cut. 
11-24-2003, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by SPANKY LS1
I never "called you out", or said definitely that your timing was the problem I stated that it could be, IMO be a tuning issue, and that that should be looked into before changing heads (a drastic measure, IMO). I'll gladly bet you that LG can tune it and it produce more than 423, though. And, for it to be a fair bet, if you lose, you would have to pay LG and me, otherwise you'd have nothing to lose (You'd have to pay for dyno time anyway) Besides, I've given Lou enough money 
Either way, post up the results, either way. I'm a big enough man to admit when I'm wrong......
Either way, post up the results, either way. I'm a big enough man to admit when I'm wrong......I told you - I'll bet you that LG can't increase power by changing the tune only with everything else kept constant over there - loser pays for the dyno time. If you are so sure "the problem is in the tuning" you aren't risking anything. If that's not enough I'll bet you $300 extra on the side. It's easy $$$ according to the statements you've already made.
Before you do it though, you might want to call Lou because he may advise you against making this wager against my tuning abilities
Chris
11-24-2003, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by OBSSSD
The car is my father's daily driven Z28 - here's all the information:
2002 Z28 - 5,000 miles on the car at time of dyno
M6 transmission
Stock 10-bolt w/ 3.42's
OEM SLP airlid
Free Ram Air mod
ASP Pulley
Jantzer Stage II ported TB
Kooks 1-3/4" race style coated longtubes
Lane's true duals with x-pipe
G5X-3 cam
Patriot LS6 style heads w/ 59cc chambers (11.5:1 CR)
The car ran 423rwhp/389rwtq on the best of 3 dyno pulls at RPM Motorsports in the Dallas, Texas area. Obviously I tuned the car myself with LS1 Edit. The A/F is dead flat @ 13.0:1 from 2K-7K. The timing was set at 30 degrees through that entire range. No detonation or knock retard whatsoever at any time during any pull. Everything was run 100% as the car is driven on the street. The only change was that the tires were inflated to 30 psi (315/35-17 Nitto DR's on chrome 17x11 ZR1's) instead of leaving them at 18 like the car is driven on the street.
Just to make sure there was no exhaust restriction the exhaust was unbolted at the collectors and run on the dyno - and the car actually lost a little power. There was no short belt, electric water pump or any other stuff that might inflate the dyno. The car is in perfect mechanical condition and is a total street car - driven 100% as a daily driver. Overall I was disappointed in the results from the heads. I figure just bolting up unported 6.0L castings with a bump to 11.5 CR should yield 25rwhp easy. Before I make my final judgements though - I'm going to tune the 3 other cars we just put these heads on - and then the verdict will be in
I will have Wade @ RPM post the dyno graph up Monday - but I can assure you that every "t" was crossed and every "i" was dotted. Nothing was missed and the tune was perfect. For better or worse this is all 100% legit
Chris
2002 Z28 - 5,000 miles on the car at time of dyno
M6 transmission
Stock 10-bolt w/ 3.42's
OEM SLP airlid
Free Ram Air mod
ASP Pulley
Jantzer Stage II ported TB
Kooks 1-3/4" race style coated longtubes
Lane's true duals with x-pipe
G5X-3 cam
Patriot LS6 style heads w/ 59cc chambers (11.5:1 CR)
The car ran 423rwhp/389rwtq on the best of 3 dyno pulls at RPM Motorsports in the Dallas, Texas area. Obviously I tuned the car myself with LS1 Edit. The A/F is dead flat @ 13.0:1 from 2K-7K. The timing was set at 30 degrees through that entire range. No detonation or knock retard whatsoever at any time during any pull. Everything was run 100% as the car is driven on the street. The only change was that the tires were inflated to 30 psi (315/35-17 Nitto DR's on chrome 17x11 ZR1's) instead of leaving them at 18 like the car is driven on the street.
Just to make sure there was no exhaust restriction the exhaust was unbolted at the collectors and run on the dyno - and the car actually lost a little power. There was no short belt, electric water pump or any other stuff that might inflate the dyno. The car is in perfect mechanical condition and is a total street car - driven 100% as a daily driver. Overall I was disappointed in the results from the heads. I figure just bolting up unported 6.0L castings with a bump to 11.5 CR should yield 25rwhp easy. Before I make my final judgements though - I'm going to tune the 3 other cars we just put these heads on - and then the verdict will be in
I will have Wade @ RPM post the dyno graph up Monday - but I can assure you that every "t" was crossed and every "i" was dotted. Nothing was missed and the tune was perfect. For better or worse this is all 100% legit
Chris
.. oh, and what is the highest dynoing H/C car that you have tuned thus far?
11-25-2003, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by gomer
I keep wondering how you tried all this different timing 24,25,degrees etc, unbolted the collectors, and used all your tuning magic on 3 dyno pulls. How many different pulls did you make with the car at each of the timing ranges? How many dyno pulls have been made on the car total? Was the 3 that you stated above the only 3 that you made? I'm not trying to pick at you or anything... I'm just trying to get a more clear picture of what you have done as far as "DYNO TUNING" goes on the car. When my car was tweaked from the TSP mail order tune, we pulled it 14 times, before it was the way I wanted it. Thanks for the info.
.. oh, and what is the highest dynoing H/C car that you have tuned thus far?
.. oh, and what is the highest dynoing H/C car that you have tuned thus far?
The highest dynoing NA car I've tuned is a tough question - but it's probably Jay Johnson's car that just ran 525rwhp through a Powerglide transmission with a 408 under the hood. He ran a 10.02 on motor at the Texas Motorplex at the GMHTP shootout so he'll be in the magazine soon. I also tuned CJ Peddy's car wich is a heads/cam daily driver with a 150 NX MAF kit that ran 10.17 there the same day in complete street trim with Hoosier slicks. I've done heads/cam, N20, blower cars, you name it plenty of times.
I've talked with Lou about this and plan on running the car at his shop on his dyno but he's already told me every car he does with H/C and the X3 requires 30 degrees for maximum power - so as it turns out my results were exactly what he stated I should have come up with after I had already tuned the car. Before that though I'm going to see how the other cars turn out that RPM just put the Patriot heads on.
I'm not trying to bash anyone here BTW. Terry at Patriot is a great guy and has been good through all this. I have no doubts he'll make sure it's all right if there are any issues. I will keep working on this to get things resolved over the next week or two so stay tuned. BTW, how much timing are you running with the TSP cam on your final tune?
Chris
11-25-2003, 05:32 AM
#65
Originally Posted by OBSSSD
You said you "guaranteed" it is probably in the tuning
Post your results either way......
11-25-2003, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by SPANKY LS1
... I'd be willing to bet it is in the tuning. ...
Originally Posted by OBSSSD
OK, I'll make you a bet Spanky. ....
11-25-2003, 09:11 AM
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50 RWHP left in the computer on a heads/cam car, and the computer's already been tweaked? Not bloody likely, IMO. 
I'd run a compression check on the motor. Compression is power. If you're hanging the valves open due to rocker arm geometry (wrong pushrod length), then you could definitely be down on power. Don't just assume you got the right pushrods because someone told you they should work.
Run a compression check. If it comes back 130-140 psi, that's too low. You should see 160 psi, minimum. Preferably 180.
Also, consider running a leakdown test - to make sure you don't have any bent valves.
-Andrew
I'd run a compression check on the motor. Compression is power. If you're hanging the valves open due to rocker arm geometry (wrong pushrod length), then you could definitely be down on power. Don't just assume you got the right pushrods because someone told you they should work.
Run a compression check. If it comes back 130-140 psi, that's too low. You should see 160 psi, minimum. Preferably 180.
Also, consider running a leakdown test - to make sure you don't have any bent valves.
-Andrew
11-25-2003, 01:45 PM
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I doubt it's the heads, logically that wouldn't make any sense. You can't really mess up a set of CNC'd heads to where they are all different, the process is computer controlled and therefor every set should be equal with an extremely small margin. My guess would be that something was installed wrong, no offense it's just that doesn't make sense. No matter how much experience you have things tend to get overlooked, I've done it many times myself. Check small things like correct valvetrain geometry, lifter preload (perhaps collapsed lifter(s)), rocker arm torque, wiring, vacuum leaks etc. Just an idea, no flames intended.
-Sly
-Sly
11-25-2003, 03:10 PM
#72
Originally Posted by BigTex
Spanky, Chris called your bluff, what are you going to do?
That is too low, especially for a 2002 car with a M6 and a 10 bolt. You should have gained more than 83hp/31tq with all of the stuff you added since the 340/358 dyno. Maybe the tuning can be tweaked? Somethings not right, IMO.
The hp and tq numbers aren't what is of concern, its the low amount of hp and tq that he gained from all of the mods, IMO. I bet more hp and tq can be gained in the tuning.....
11-25-2003, 03:55 PM
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Good luck OBSSD with this. It looks like you're getting a lot of support from various sources. I feel for you, after dropping all that coin going for big numbers, you deserve a close looksy. Although those numbers aren't that bad, you deserve better. I ran very close numbers to you with LS1 Stage 2's and a small cam (224). This is also with MACs, stock TB and 4.10s.
We're pullin' for ya and monitoring this thread oh so closely. BTW Gomer, I too sacrifice food for mods...you're not alone!
We're pullin' for ya and monitoring this thread oh so closely. BTW Gomer, I too sacrifice food for mods...you're not alone!
11-25-2003, 05:14 PM
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just some food for thought.... what have other people been getting out of the COMBO. not pointing at one or the other but everybody knows that x heads and y cam that are both awesome in there own, might not be meant for eachother? just because you take one of the better cams and one of the better heads and mate them doesnt always mean that better numbers are a result. i could be wrong and missing the posts of other people's results in reguards to this COMBO.
some more food for thought... i could be wrong but dont these heads truley shine on larger cubed motors?
some more food for thought... i could be wrong but dont these heads truley shine on larger cubed motors?
11-25-2003, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by OBSSSD
The car is my father's daily driven Z28 - here's all the information:
2002 Z28 - 5,000 miles on the car at time of dyno
M6 transmission
Stock 10-bolt w/ 3.42's
OEM SLP airlid
Free Ram Air mod
ASP Pulley
Jantzer Stage II ported TB
Kooks 1-3/4" race style coated longtubes
Lane's true duals with x-pipe
G5X-3 cam
Patriot LS6 style heads w/ 59cc chambers (11.5:1 CR)
The car ran 423rwhp/389rwtq on the best of 3 dyno pulls at RPM Motorsports in the Dallas, Texas area. Obviously I tuned the car myself with LS1 Edit. The A/F is dead flat @ 13.0:1 from 2K-7K. The timing was set at 30 degrees through that entire range. No detonation or knock retard whatsoever at any time during any pull. Everything was run 100% as the car is driven on the street. The only change was that the tires were inflated to 30 psi (315/35-17 Nitto DR's on chrome 17x11 ZR1's) instead of leaving them at 18 like the car is driven on the street.
Just to make sure there was no exhaust restriction the exhaust was unbolted at the collectors and run on the dyno - and the car actually lost a little power. There was no short belt, electric water pump or any other stuff that might inflate the dyno. The car is in perfect mechanical condition and is a total street car - driven 100% as a daily driver. Overall I was disappointed in the results from the heads. I figure just bolting up unported 6.0L castings with a bump to 11.5 CR should yield 25rwhp easy. Before I make my final judgements though - I'm going to tune the 3 other cars we just put these heads on - and then the verdict will be in
The car feels good though and as a frame of reference - it ran 340/358 through stock manifolds @ 2,000 miles before the headers, duals, pulley, heads, and cam added. Also, an LS1 C5 M6 car with CNC cylinder heads and a little smaller cam ran 440rwhp on the same dyno a couple weeks ago with basically the identical mods except the heads/cam. That was with ported LS1 heads though so 450rwhp should be there with a well ported set of LS6 or LS6 style heads with an 11.5:1 CR.
I will have Wade @ RPM post the dyno graph up Monday - but I can assure you that every "t" was crossed and every "i" was dotted. Nothing was missed and the tune was perfect. For better or worse this is all 100% legit
Chris
2002 Z28 - 5,000 miles on the car at time of dyno
M6 transmission
Stock 10-bolt w/ 3.42's
OEM SLP airlid
Free Ram Air mod
ASP Pulley
Jantzer Stage II ported TB
Kooks 1-3/4" race style coated longtubes
Lane's true duals with x-pipe
G5X-3 cam
Patriot LS6 style heads w/ 59cc chambers (11.5:1 CR)
The car ran 423rwhp/389rwtq on the best of 3 dyno pulls at RPM Motorsports in the Dallas, Texas area. Obviously I tuned the car myself with LS1 Edit. The A/F is dead flat @ 13.0:1 from 2K-7K. The timing was set at 30 degrees through that entire range. No detonation or knock retard whatsoever at any time during any pull. Everything was run 100% as the car is driven on the street. The only change was that the tires were inflated to 30 psi (315/35-17 Nitto DR's on chrome 17x11 ZR1's) instead of leaving them at 18 like the car is driven on the street.
Just to make sure there was no exhaust restriction the exhaust was unbolted at the collectors and run on the dyno - and the car actually lost a little power. There was no short belt, electric water pump or any other stuff that might inflate the dyno. The car is in perfect mechanical condition and is a total street car - driven 100% as a daily driver. Overall I was disappointed in the results from the heads. I figure just bolting up unported 6.0L castings with a bump to 11.5 CR should yield 25rwhp easy. Before I make my final judgements though - I'm going to tune the 3 other cars we just put these heads on - and then the verdict will be in
The car feels good though and as a frame of reference - it ran 340/358 through stock manifolds @ 2,000 miles before the headers, duals, pulley, heads, and cam added. Also, an LS1 C5 M6 car with CNC cylinder heads and a little smaller cam ran 440rwhp on the same dyno a couple weeks ago with basically the identical mods except the heads/cam. That was with ported LS1 heads though so 450rwhp should be there with a well ported set of LS6 or LS6 style heads with an 11.5:1 CR.
I will have Wade @ RPM post the dyno graph up Monday - but I can assure you that every "t" was crossed and every "i" was dotted. Nothing was missed and the tune was perfect. For better or worse this is all 100% legit
Chris
MY JPR heads as below, Untuned (MAF Translator only) see results below.
11-25-2003, 05:45 PM
#76
Originally Posted by WOT
just some food for thought.... what have other people been getting out of the COMBO. not pointing at one or the other but everybody knows that x heads and y cam that are both awesome in there own, might not be meant for eachother? just because you take one of the better cams and one of the better heads and mate them doesnt always mean that better numbers are a result. i could be wrong and missing the posts of other people's results in reguards to this COMBO.
some more food for thought... i could be wrong but dont these heads truley shine on larger cubed motors?
some more food for thought... i could be wrong but dont these heads truley shine on larger cubed motors?
11-25-2003, 08:32 PM
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hey there OBSSSD... just wondering where you were with your troubleshooting? also, did you ever flycut your pistons or was this not looked into/needed. this really has my curiosity going. has a compression test been done yet? good luck man and let us know where you are with things.
also beast, i would have guessed this combo would produce numbers but i have been wrong before/ have seen high dollar parts just not work together????
what kinda numbers did you get?
also beast, i would have guessed this combo would produce numbers but i have been wrong before/ have seen high dollar parts just not work together????
what kinda numbers did you get?
11-25-2003, 09:48 PM
#78
Originally Posted by slyws6
You can't really mess up a set of CNC'd heads to where they are all different, the process is computer controlled and therefor every set should be equal with an extremely small margin.
Some of the NASCAR shop/head porters can do CNC so perfect hand blending only hurts but this is the exception not the rule. This degree of precision comes with a high price tag and would put our street based CNC'd LS1 heads out of the reach of the vast majority of us.
11-26-2003, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by shadowSS
MY JPR heads as below, Untuned (MAF Translator only) see results below.
JPR Stage II heads
224 Thunder Cam
JPR Ported MAF
JPR Ported Throttlebody
ASP Crank Pulley
LS6 Intake Manifold
Mac Headers W/ORP
Mcleod REV-LOC II Clutch
430RWHP 419RWTQ
Dayum shadow, those are huge numbers for that set up. Are those #s SAE corrected? We got a similar set up except my MAF and TB are stock. You got a stock rear? Gears? Not to bash, great numbers, but surely very high.
Back to the topic, we need to see a dyno graph!