WeathermanShawn

iTrader: (1)

CTD or Dale you do not have to apologize to anyone. There are many enthusiasts like you. I am more like you than the hardcore racers. Like you, the thought or breaking parts after having invested so much money, is not appealing. People with the ability to do their own work have a great advantage.

Yours is an interesting story. May I ask where your 'rural area' is? Likewise, I do a lot of pleasure driving up in the 'hills' west of Denver, but obviously there is a big city nearby..though many miles from a LS1Tech Sponsor shop.

Have fun. You don't need to blast down a 1/4 mile to enjoy your mods.

Best of luck.

..WeathermanShawn..

chrs1313

iTrader: (24)

nice numbers...i bet those heads, intake, and roller rockers where a bunch of $$$ so you deserve it...

ctd

iTrader: (1)

Some members here have only one way to quantify there rides....so be it!

What is best for them is not an automatic that is best for me, I've tried to make that point.

My little town is 3100 people, maybe less these days, as you travel to the next town maybe the same population or less or slightly larger.

I'm sure you are familiar with Vancouver & Calgary, draw a line between the two. Place a dot in the middle & that's me, mid point approx. 5 hour driving each way. Unlike many hi population area's not much in between other than small communities...awesome.

Check out Postal Code V0E 2V1.

nick1ta

My 2000 ws6 made 486rwhp, 436rwt with the only difference being my cam was a 228-230 on a 114! Thanks again Tony for the great work on the heads and intake!

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

That's right Nick....its been awhile.

Your a great example of an F-Body with a similar combination. Some ported 205's and FAST intake I helped you with....very similar cam....I cant remember about an U/D pulley and EWP but my guess is you had the pulley.

As I think it relates a good bit to this thread (and somewhat to the credibility of Dales numbers).....could you share some of the other details of the build?

What, if any, of the finer details may you have over looked? The only thing Dale could have improved upon was his choice of clutch (at least from the dyno number aspect of this situation).

Also, I would immediately add 10 RWHP to whatever numbers you produced plucking the same package out of your F-Body and installing it in a Y-body....they simply look better on the dyno given the same parameters of the build.

Thanks for chiming in....

-Tony

raptorws6

iTrader: (1)

Very nice results.

ScreaminRedZ

iTrader: (3)

Did the OP say he had previously run the combo on a Mustang dyno? What were the results on that dyno?

Also, I'm not sure if I'm following the argument correctly or not, but I don't think blu is saying that is won't make 500 rwhp on a dynojet. I think he's saying that if they were using the normal correction factor that is used on a DD dyno, then this combo would be making alot more than 500 on a dynojet, and that's where he's having trouble with it.

ccajun4real

iTrader: (29)

Man I need to get on that dyno for sure. My LS2 with Stage 2.5 PRC and 244/248 114LSA cam, every bolt on and cutouts open only put down 519/490. My curve was alot higher than that but still.

ctd

iTrader: (1)

Post it please. Tx's

stoverz28

iTrader: (8)

So your making 490 rwtq on a stock bottom LS2 and you think he is the one on a happy dyno?

Nick1ta or Tony, do either of you have trapspeeds from your setups?

Nice #'s OP, I would love to have a tq curve like that!

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

Nice retort Stover.....LOL

Not to mention trying to draw a comparison from a setup with a budget ported OEM head and a heavily optimized AFR 205 head (by the guy that designed it) doesn't seem very logical.

And in a way your picking up on the fact his torque is a bit out of line for a 364 CID engine reinforces what I have been saying all along.....nothing is "wrong" or suspect about the OP's numbers below 5500 RPM.....this engine produces the right curve and torque output you would expect a 346 with killer heads and all the complimenting details to produce....the difference once again, for the people who keep glancing over things only reading whats convenient for them, is this package carries the torque curve and the miracle of horsepower is born thru the beauty of mathematics.

What does it take for an engine that can only produce "X" amount of torque (essentially displacement and compression limited) to make big power.....the ability for it to maintain close to its peak torque a good distance after it does peak. More cam can help and more airflow can help....in Dale's case the key is the latter of the two.

Regarding traps, I have no idea about Nick's set-up but my former 346 with the 224 cam trapped 124 MPH at 1600 D/A.....pretty respectable at that altitude. Not to mention made 550 HP and 475 TQ on the engine dyno sometime in the middle of all my testing and parts swapping (STD corrected #'s tested on a SuperFlow 902). Thats about what you would need to trap that MPH in a 3450 lb ride.

-Tony

WeathermanShawn

iTrader: (1)

Just doing the Math: HP = TQ * RPM/5250

Same 400 FT/LBS of TQ at various RPM's and resulting HP

RPM: 6000 6200 6400 6600 6800
TQ: 400 400 400 400 400
HP: 457 472 487 502 518

I would suggest that for any reader who challenges what the dyno numbers are for anyone who post on this or any other forum..is just to ask the following question:

Does the TQ curve below 5250 RPM's look legitimate? If the answer is YES then how could the TQ curve above 5250 Rpm's be false? You would have to question the entire TQ curve from start to finish to say it was not a legitimate and valid dyno reading.

Just hanging out 400 FT-LBS of TQ for an additional 300 RPMS (6400-6700 Rpm's) is a mathematical gain of 23 HP units. People are asserting the numbers are false, but no one has really made a case that the TQ curve is not a legitimate curve for a 346 cubic inch engine.

Like Tony said, sometimes one just reads or sees what one wants to. HP is 'just math'..the ability to carry TQ out to higher RPM's. There is no mystery in that number. Just always ask..is that a reasonable TQ curve and at 5250 Rpm's does it look legitimate.

Dale, sounds like a great car and a nice place to drive it. I think the beauty of your setup is you have substantial TQ low, middle, and high. That would be my goal, so again congrats on your setup.

Best of luck.

..WeathermanShawn..

vettenuts

iTrader: (4)

Dale,

You mention you spent the summer tuning the on road drivability. Curious as to how you went about learning the software, etc. Unfortunately in my area a 3rd gear roll-on to fuel cutoff would likely net me some jail time

ctd

iTrader: (1)

Awesome, finally a question for me.

I started with the software 2 years ago when I was mostly stock, hopping I would be ready for the H/C project. I was overwhelmed & hoped that being able to upload/download the tunes I would use other's for tuning. That did not go well, unless I was willing to accept serious drivabilty issue's.

Thru the power of the Internet I found a mentor & another individual learning like me not like me he is extremely computer literate. We are sharing in the tuning material that is available, some is very good, some is like dyno's. At one point I even contacted Tony for some direction for tuning as I was not winning the battle.

The learning of this software is never ending & I would consider myself a grasshopper with very limited knowledge, however I'm somewhat of a perfectionist. I've made sure to learn the correct way to tune, like dyno's you have to be able sort the "Fluff"

My rural location combined with hills makes for some ideal simulated dyno tuning. Road tuning like dyno tuning is not all about WOT, WOT is the easiest part. Under the curve dirvability is like choosing your engine components, thats is what separates tuners & engine packages.

As an example I came home from dyno session with a graph that verified what Tony was paid to provide.....I was not happy with a few things. One being the dyno report from 3200 - 4200 rpm.

Some discussion with my mentor & computer wizard friend & I now have a PID in my scanner called "Torque Delivered". Very serious improvements are now made in that weak rpm area, flattened & higher, I would sure like to verify those gains on the dyno "Under the Curve again"

Yes I used my third gear roll on....only to 4500rpm.....you won't go to jail for that!

SIC LSX

iTrader: (10)

i would like to see it on another dyno! I have seen that set of heads and cam on a few cars and tthey only made anywhere from 440-460whp.

matt1289

They are not exactly the same heads, both the heads and intake were ported by Tony. The cam itself is a little different as well.

ccajun4real

iTrader: (29)

Actually I have a forged bottom end genius, but that is not the point. I guess I have just never seen anything even close to this. My old combo was AFR 205 with 228/232 114 cam and ALL bolt ons. Car made 445/425.

I know Tony is VERY good at what he does I just dont see 55hp from more porting and a smaller cam but then again I am not an expert, I just pay attention and take note of numbers. Maybe we should all quit building large cube motors and just stick with 346 and AFR heads.

SIC LSX

iTrader: (10)

I say happy dyno! milling and ported 205's more will not give you 55whp maybe 10-15. all it said in 1st post is milled AFR 205's, Take it to the track if it dosnt run high 10s you will know. You need some bad *** TFS heads and a bad *** cam, ported 92/92 and full boltons to make 500whp on a 346ci

stoverz28

iTrader: (8)

You didn't say that in your previous post so how was I to know?

I think the fact that your car made 425tq just reinforces the credibility of these #'s. The OP's #'s are only 16 higher than yours. Some nice head and intake porting, by the head's designer especially, is definitely worth 16 rwtq in my book. To add to that, the cam was also spec'd, by that same guy, to carry the tq high into the rpm range.

It isn't often that the head's designer is financed to design and help build a set up around his heads. Have you ever seen a combo like this (with extensive porting of an aftermarket intake and the already cnc'd heads) from the designer of the TFS heads? The "out of the box" H/C/I does not compare...

lilbuddy1587

iTrader: (1)

And I'll bet your old combo wasn't maximized like this particular car's, huh? Not only is this car's tune optimized but so is the entire package/combo. You can have all the bolt ons you want with all the "best of the best" parts and that doesn't automatically equal "the best of the best" numbers. So, to answer your ridiculous question, No. Keep building the large cube motors but leave the head,cam,valve train selection/setup to people who know what they're doing as opposed to going through a parts catalog and asking for cam advice on the internet.


I say that this is the most ridiculous post I've seen in a while here in the Dyno section, and that says a lot!

What it says in the 1st post is that this is an ENTIRELY optimized combo I.E H/C (I'm assuming hand finishing, re-done VJ and a cam that is actually suited for the combo), valve train, induction and tune. No secrets, no "magic", no ******* pixie dust. Him going to the track and running a number isn't going to prove whether or not this car makes the power that's claimed. That has already been brought up and is constantly beat to death on this forum as most peoples cars aren't setup for track duty, they most likely aren't the best of drivers/shift slow, etc etc etc.

And this gem... Please, go and tell that to all of the sponsors that have done it with ported OEM castings. Hell, I've witnessed a pair of TEA's (TFS pimpster, no offense Tooley!) stg 2.5 LS6 heads with additional "hand finishing" via TEA, put down 492rwhp in 110 +/- degree weather on a H/C 90/90 346. Hell, If I remember right, Patrick G's optimized combo put down 500+ with AFR's as well.

Sorry but it doesn't take "some bad *** TFS heads and a bad *** cam, ported 92/92 and full boltons" to come close to or even eclipse 500rwhp. It takes a well thought out combination that is thoroughly optimized in all the right areas.

OP, Tony,

Great job fellas!