Truck Coils MYTH PROVEN INSIDE
10-25-2009, 11:13 AM
#41
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If you buy this, then it must be worthless to install different plugs or wires, huh?
Maybe I missed it but did the OP change the dwell?
Get a grip - One dyno test doesn't prove or disprove anything, guys. We'll see over time how this really pans out. The guys that see gains may have something in common in their combos/scenarios...or the guys that show no gain may be missing something.
Keep in mind, these coils were designed to benefit under heavy loads - which isn't exactly the same as WOT on a dyno. If someone's tune doesn't need any more spark, I see no reason why it would benefit. In most cases though, I think you would benefit, even in small ways: smoother idle, a MPG or 2, etc.
Seriously though, this is common sense - you can feel a stronger spark, especially when the difference is a factor of 3. To say that makes no difference intuitively seems silly. I guess since spark makes no difference, fuel and air must not either...
It is perfectly reasonable that one could/would pick up 2-3% power/efficiency (not a huge amount) by multiplying the spark energy, even with an ignition system as good as ours is.
Why is this such a tough concept for some people to wrap their heads around?
Maybe I missed it but did the OP change the dwell?
Get a grip - One dyno test doesn't prove or disprove anything, guys. We'll see over time how this really pans out. The guys that see gains may have something in common in their combos/scenarios...or the guys that show no gain may be missing something.
Keep in mind, these coils were designed to benefit under heavy loads - which isn't exactly the same as WOT on a dyno. If someone's tune doesn't need any more spark, I see no reason why it would benefit. In most cases though, I think you would benefit, even in small ways: smoother idle, a MPG or 2, etc.
Seriously though, this is common sense - you can feel a stronger spark, especially when the difference is a factor of 3. To say that makes no difference intuitively seems silly. I guess since spark makes no difference, fuel and air must not either...
It is perfectly reasonable that one could/would pick up 2-3% power/efficiency (not a huge amount) by multiplying the spark energy, even with an ignition system as good as ours is.
Why is this such a tough concept for some people to wrap their heads around?
comparing amount of spark to air and fuel is foolish.
last question-how do you feel a stronger spark?
Last edited by Shawn @ VA Speed; 10-25-2009 at 12:20 PM.
10-25-2009, 11:20 AM
#42
I was actually told the other day that my car was no longer stock because I had changed the wires and plugs...... wires aren't even MSD wires, and the plugs are NGKtr55 cause we all know that alone adds 30 hp.....((this guy plays an online game with me and in the game if you change the plugs and wires you gain 30hp))
I told him he plays too many video games...lol.
I told him he plays too many video games...lol.
10-25-2009, 11:20 AM
#43
I was actually told the other day that my car was no longer stock because I had changed the wires and plugs...... wires aren't even MSD wires, and the plugs are NGKtr55 cause we all know that alone adds 30 hp.....((this guy plays an online game with me and in the game if you change the plugs and wires you gain 30hp))
I told him he plays too many video games...lol.
I told him he plays too many video games...lol.
10-25-2009, 02:22 PM
#45
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Wasn't ragging on his ride..just thought the numbers seemed a little low for the mods listed...dyno's are tuning and measuring tools....a H/C stalled auto may not produce good dyno numbers but can run it's *** off at the track and I was merely stating my opinion (last I checked you were free to speak your mind) as far as the comment goes about it "sucking" to be you only you or the guy/guys you blew would know that
...anyways back to the subject there is good info out there about these coils vs. regular LS coils and feel free to check the thread that has detailed info..I'l try to dig it up for those to lazy to use the search
...anyways back to the subject there is good info out there about these coils vs. regular LS coils and feel free to check the thread that has detailed info..I'l try to dig it up for those to lazy to use the searchI have a MS3 camaro SS. Charles (the OP) did the install and dyno tune. Yesterday I went back to his dyno and first pull it put down 367rwhp...now, before he even tuned anything, my car in that exact form on a dyno dynamics put down 412rwhp. What Im saying is, Dont judge a car by measily dyno numbers.
BTW, after tuning I left with 396.xxrwhp on his dyno...so if I went back to the dyno dynamics at the other shop, it would be 420+rwhp. Pretty much just bragging rights.
10-25-2009, 02:37 PM
#46
I fail to see how one is going to pick up power on a H/C bolt on car when the coils are good in the first place.
Reminds me of the thread a few day ago....picked up a second and 9mph going from tr6's to tr55's hahaha. Yeah that will happen when you have a bad plug lolz.
Reminds me of the thread a few day ago....picked up a second and 9mph going from tr6's to tr55's hahaha. Yeah that will happen when you have a bad plug lolz.
10-25-2009, 04:44 PM
#49
Heres a little info for you to consider....
I have a MS3 camaro SS. Charles (the OP) did the install and dyno tune. Yesterday I went back to his dyno and first pull it put down 367rwhp...now, before he even tuned anything, my car in that exact form on a dyno dynamics put down 412rwhp. What Im saying is, Dont judge a car by measily dyno numbers.
BTW, after tuning I left with 396.xxrwhp on his dyno...so if I went back to the dyno dynamics at the other shop, it would be 420+rwhp. Pretty much just bragging rights.
I have a MS3 camaro SS. Charles (the OP) did the install and dyno tune. Yesterday I went back to his dyno and first pull it put down 367rwhp...now, before he even tuned anything, my car in that exact form on a dyno dynamics put down 412rwhp. What Im saying is, Dont judge a car by measily dyno numbers.
BTW, after tuning I left with 396.xxrwhp on his dyno...so if I went back to the dyno dynamics at the other shop, it would be 420+rwhp. Pretty much just bragging rights.
Good Job...your car is a M6 according to your sig and the guy whom this was directed to and the OP have auto's...for some reason M6's dyno higher
10-25-2009, 05:47 PM
#50
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no ****. You completely over looked my point that my car was on two different dynos and put down very different numbers which in the end the Dyno is nothing but a Tuning Device.
10-25-2009, 05:55 PM
#51
On an engine making very high cylinder pressures thats having trouble lighting off the plug...the D585's can be beneficial because they will keep you from having to tighten your plug gap down to almost nothing in order to make a spark...which is a good thing.
I'm running D585's on my Camaro because I got them for free (bought an LQ4 to use the block for a buildup and it had coils on it), but I didn't see any gain at all because my stock coils were fine and I don't make nearly enough cylinder pressure for the stock coils to have any problems making a spark at stock plug gap.
I'm running D585's on my Camaro because I got them for free (bought an LQ4 to use the block for a buildup and it had coils on it), but I didn't see any gain at all because my stock coils were fine and I don't make nearly enough cylinder pressure for the stock coils to have any problems making a spark at stock plug gap.
10-25-2009, 09:39 PM
#52
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I never tested the MSD coils, but I had them bench tested for output and they fell behind the truck coils.
I wonder if you need an engine that is struggling to see the gain. My truck engine had no audible misfire with the f car coils, seemed fine on the dyno. The truck coils picked it up starting just a bit before peak torque (3900rpm 900+ft lbs) all the way out to peak power (5200rpm-900hp) and slightly beyond power peak. My engine now is 100,000 miles and sounds like a diesel! One coil did go bad at about 80,000 miles, but they have generally been good.
Kurt
I wonder if you need an engine that is struggling to see the gain. My truck engine had no audible misfire with the f car coils, seemed fine on the dyno. The truck coils picked it up starting just a bit before peak torque (3900rpm 900+ft lbs) all the way out to peak power (5200rpm-900hp) and slightly beyond power peak. My engine now is 100,000 miles and sounds like a diesel! One coil did go bad at about 80,000 miles, but they have generally been good.
Kurt
I tested the coil theory years ago when I had my 383 on the engine dyno....swapped to the MSD coils ($600!) and picked up squat (they were sent by MSD to the test facilty where I happened to be dyno testing in hopes the shop (Westech) would try to pimp them a bit....the dyno test operator jumped at the chance to try them on my engine hoping something with 50% more output than stock might see a gain).
The first pull went from a best of 610-611 to 614 and we were both surprised a little thinking an eight coil system wouldn't really show much.....the next 4 pulls after that were back to 610-611.
Sorry....we have some nice parting gifts though
(They certainly looked a bunch better....maybe even a $100 worth but certainly not $600!)
Bottom line with an individual coil per cylinder its really hard to improve on the system unless you need some ridiculous amperage to fire the mixture where a significantly higher output coil can help. Its different with a single coil system because the coil has so much less time to regenerate its spark energy (its unloading eight times to every one time in an individual coil set-up).
Good post....probably helps many others not waste their time and money.
-Tony
The first pull went from a best of 610-611 to 614 and we were both surprised a little thinking an eight coil system wouldn't really show much.....the next 4 pulls after that were back to 610-611.
Sorry....we have some nice parting gifts though
(They certainly looked a bunch better....maybe even a $100 worth but certainly not $600!)
Bottom line with an individual coil per cylinder its really hard to improve on the system unless you need some ridiculous amperage to fire the mixture where a significantly higher output coil can help. Its different with a single coil system because the coil has so much less time to regenerate its spark energy (its unloading eight times to every one time in an individual coil set-up).
Good post....probably helps many others not waste their time and money.
-Tony
10-26-2009, 12:22 PM
#54
Thanks again GENIUS......exactly what I said before which is why you shouldn't take the OP's results and expect the same outcome ...we should all know by now that there are many variables to consider when reading dyno results and dynos can be manipulated to read higher or lower...not trying to get into a pissing match not argue with stupidity ....back to the subject at hand please
10-26-2009, 12:53 PM
#56
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I had was always under the impression the truck coils were better suited for forced induction/ high compression engines. Maybe even benificial in NO2 engines because you can run a larger gap on the plugs.
I am going to give them a try. This will be on my 11.7:1 416. It will also be with the t56, which should paint a better picture of any gains or losses than an auto on the dyno.
I am going to give them a try. This will be on my 11.7:1 416. It will also be with the t56, which should paint a better picture of any gains or losses than an auto on the dyno.
10-26-2009, 01:05 PM
#57
Good comments, Shawn, let me address in reverse order.
I don't FEEL a stronger spark, I KNOW it because it was measured comparatively here:
http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm
I took the time to research this a bit because it's interesting. Given your profession and reputation, perhaps it's worth your time to do so also.
Perhaps there is a point of diminishing returns with spark vs. air and fuel that continue to see benefit as they are increased but to say it's foolish is ignorant and narrow minded. To say that spark is spark is plain silly and not at all consistent with your reputation. If that were the case, we'd all use the same plugs, wires, etc. If that were the case, why did we go from points to electronic distributors? From those to shared coils? From those to coil on/near plug designs? Stronger spark is better, period. If you have proof otherwise, you could make a mint selling downgrades to every single manufacturer's ignition systems.
Want more? Worn out plugs or wires will often not cause misfires. Does that mean there is no benefit to changing them? Guess what, when you do, the engine runs markedly better - smoother, stronger, etc. I've seen this literally hundreds of times...as has anyone that has dealt with tune and driveability issues for a living. So no misfires but adding a stronger spark means more power and efficiency. I'm surprised you've never seen such a thing.
Given that GM Powertrain has been a consistent bright spot, do you think they'd make a change like this to so many vehicles that see high loads for no reason? That's too stupid even for GM.
So the question behind the question is key and it is two fold:
1. Was there an existing weak spot in the system that the hotter coil compensated for?
2. Can the system benefit from or use the additional spark energy?
Those questions require MUCH more attention to detail and troubleshooting, and can't be answered by a handful of dynos. In the end, each car and application will be somewhat different, so we have to see lots of results over time to get a consistent finding on if a few HP is worthwhile or not.
Finally, many people here spend a lot more money for a lot less HP so for folks to say a few HP is not worth is just silly given the HP hungry population here.
Given all of that specific detail, I'd say it's up to you to tell ME how a stronger spark CAN'T help...
10-26-2009, 01:45 PM
#58
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Good comments, Shawn, let me address in reverse order.
I don't FEEL a stronger spark, I KNOW it because it was measured comparatively here:
http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm
I took the time to research this a bit because it's interesting. Given your profession and reputation, perhaps it's worth your time to do so also.
Perhaps there is a point of diminishing returns with spark vs. air and fuel that continue to see benefit as they are increased but to say it's foolish is ignorant and narrow minded. To say that spark is spark is plain silly and not at all consistent with your reputation. If that were the case, we'd all use the same plugs, wires, etc. If that were the case, why did we go from points to electronic distributors? From those to shared coils? From those to coil on/near plug designs? Stronger spark is better, period. If you have proof otherwise, you could make a mint selling downgrades to every single manufacturer's ignition systems.
Want more? Worn out plugs or wires will often not cause misfires. Does that mean there is no benefit to changing them? Guess what, when you do, the engine runs markedly better - smoother, stronger, etc. I've seen this literally hundreds of times...as has anyone that has dealt with tune and driveability issues for a living. So no misfires but adding a stronger spark means more power and efficiency. I'm surprised you've never seen such a thing.
Given that GM Powertrain has been a consistent bright spot, do you think they'd make a change like this to so many vehicles that see high loads for no reason? That's too stupid even for GM.
So the question behind the question is key and it is two fold:
1. Was there an existing weak spot in the system that the hotter coil compensated for?
2. Can the system benefit from or use the additional spark energy?
Those questions require MUCH more attention to detail and troubleshooting, and can't be answered by a handful of dynos. In the end, each car and application will be somewhat different, so we have to see lots of results over time to get a consistent finding on if a few HP is worthwhile or not.
Finally, many people here spend a lot more money for a lot less HP so for folks to say a few HP is not worth is just silly given the HP hungry population here.
Given all of that specific detail, I'd say it's up to you to tell ME how a stronger spark CAN'T help...
I don't FEEL a stronger spark, I KNOW it because it was measured comparatively here:
http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm
I took the time to research this a bit because it's interesting. Given your profession and reputation, perhaps it's worth your time to do so also.
Perhaps there is a point of diminishing returns with spark vs. air and fuel that continue to see benefit as they are increased but to say it's foolish is ignorant and narrow minded. To say that spark is spark is plain silly and not at all consistent with your reputation. If that were the case, we'd all use the same plugs, wires, etc. If that were the case, why did we go from points to electronic distributors? From those to shared coils? From those to coil on/near plug designs? Stronger spark is better, period. If you have proof otherwise, you could make a mint selling downgrades to every single manufacturer's ignition systems.
Want more? Worn out plugs or wires will often not cause misfires. Does that mean there is no benefit to changing them? Guess what, when you do, the engine runs markedly better - smoother, stronger, etc. I've seen this literally hundreds of times...as has anyone that has dealt with tune and driveability issues for a living. So no misfires but adding a stronger spark means more power and efficiency. I'm surprised you've never seen such a thing.
Given that GM Powertrain has been a consistent bright spot, do you think they'd make a change like this to so many vehicles that see high loads for no reason? That's too stupid even for GM.
So the question behind the question is key and it is two fold:
1. Was there an existing weak spot in the system that the hotter coil compensated for?
2. Can the system benefit from or use the additional spark energy?
Those questions require MUCH more attention to detail and troubleshooting, and can't be answered by a handful of dynos. In the end, each car and application will be somewhat different, so we have to see lots of results over time to get a consistent finding on if a few HP is worthwhile or not.
Finally, many people here spend a lot more money for a lot less HP so for folks to say a few HP is not worth is just silly given the HP hungry population here.
Given all of that specific detail, I'd say it's up to you to tell ME how a stronger spark CAN'T help...
I like how you sidestep the question.in other words you can't tell me how more spark is going to make more power if your ignition system is working properly with no misfires.
you're the one who said you can feel more spark,just trying to figure that out.Maybe you should read what you typed.
plugs and wires aren't going ot make more power-unless they are bad.if they have more resistance than the coil can overcome you will start having misfires.The main reason for aftermarket plug wires is to prevent spark leakage.If an engine is running rough that is a misfire.the main reason for having different spark plugs is to have different heat ranges and electrode designs to reduce detonation.
The only way possible for more ignition to help is that if you can widen the plig gap and have a better flame kernal.and that is pretty iffy.
You need to quit reading what these companys say to sell their products.This is what i do for a living-i have tested all of this stuff-where do you get you info from-the internet,if you havn't done it personally it's just hear say from another person.
10-26-2009, 02:27 PM
#59
Good comments, Shawn, let me address in reverse order.
I don't FEEL a stronger spark, I KNOW it because it was measured comparatively here:
http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm
I took the time to research this a bit because it's interesting. Given your profession and reputation, perhaps it's worth your time to do so also.
Perhaps there is a point of diminishing returns with spark vs. air and fuel that continue to see benefit as they are increased but to say it's foolish is ignorant and narrow minded. To say that spark is spark is plain silly and not at all consistent with your reputation. If that were the case, we'd all use the same plugs, wires, etc. If that were the case, why did we go from points to electronic distributors? From those to shared coils? From those to coil on/near plug designs? Stronger spark is better, period. If you have proof otherwise, you could make a mint selling downgrades to every single manufacturer's ignition systems.
Want more? Worn out plugs or wires will often not cause misfires. Does that mean there is no benefit to changing them? Guess what, when you do, the engine runs markedly better - smoother, stronger, etc. I've seen this literally hundreds of times...as has anyone that has dealt with tune and driveability issues for a living. So no misfires but adding a stronger spark means more power and efficiency. I'm surprised you've never seen such a thing.
Given that GM Powertrain has been a consistent bright spot, do you think they'd make a change like this to so many vehicles that see high loads for no reason? That's too stupid even for GM.
So the question behind the question is key and it is two fold:
1. Was there an existing weak spot in the system that the hotter coil compensated for?
2. Can the system benefit from or use the additional spark energy?
Those questions require MUCH more attention to detail and troubleshooting, and can't be answered by a handful of dynos. In the end, each car and application will be somewhat different, so we have to see lots of results over time to get a consistent finding on if a few HP is worthwhile or not.
Finally, many people here spend a lot more money for a lot less HP so for folks to say a few HP is not worth is just silly given the HP hungry population here.
Given all of that specific detail, I'd say it's up to you to tell ME how a stronger spark CAN'T help...
I don't FEEL a stronger spark, I KNOW it because it was measured comparatively here:
http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm
I took the time to research this a bit because it's interesting. Given your profession and reputation, perhaps it's worth your time to do so also.
Perhaps there is a point of diminishing returns with spark vs. air and fuel that continue to see benefit as they are increased but to say it's foolish is ignorant and narrow minded. To say that spark is spark is plain silly and not at all consistent with your reputation. If that were the case, we'd all use the same plugs, wires, etc. If that were the case, why did we go from points to electronic distributors? From those to shared coils? From those to coil on/near plug designs? Stronger spark is better, period. If you have proof otherwise, you could make a mint selling downgrades to every single manufacturer's ignition systems.
Want more? Worn out plugs or wires will often not cause misfires. Does that mean there is no benefit to changing them? Guess what, when you do, the engine runs markedly better - smoother, stronger, etc. I've seen this literally hundreds of times...as has anyone that has dealt with tune and driveability issues for a living. So no misfires but adding a stronger spark means more power and efficiency. I'm surprised you've never seen such a thing.
Given that GM Powertrain has been a consistent bright spot, do you think they'd make a change like this to so many vehicles that see high loads for no reason? That's too stupid even for GM.
So the question behind the question is key and it is two fold:
1. Was there an existing weak spot in the system that the hotter coil compensated for?
2. Can the system benefit from or use the additional spark energy?
Those questions require MUCH more attention to detail and troubleshooting, and can't be answered by a handful of dynos. In the end, each car and application will be somewhat different, so we have to see lots of results over time to get a consistent finding on if a few HP is worthwhile or not.
Finally, many people here spend a lot more money for a lot less HP so for folks to say a few HP is not worth is just silly given the HP hungry population here.
Given all of that specific detail, I'd say it's up to you to tell ME how a stronger spark CAN'T help...
MY POINT EXACTLY and thank you for taking time to point this out. Most people on here (or just most people in general) would rather take what someone else posted in regards to their results and use that as if it were written in stone. However , people who take the time out to look further at all the little details and variables involved in dyno results know to take the posted results with a grain a salt ( most dyno results posted {not necessarily refering to these} are not even corrected thus yielding higher results) there are alot of different tuning tables in tuning software that some "tuners" don't even fool around with because they don't know enough about them, now depending on all the details of a particular setup there can be an advantage to using the truck coils, now if someone is taking a stock, untuned car with a lid, catback, etc.... and thinking that just bolting these on is going to give them 10+/- HP/TQ without addressing other issues should look into "modding" alot further in detail......just saying you shouldn't say that "I put "these" coils on "this" car with "those" mods and didn't get results like "that" guy....I'm sure we know people thathave picked up and lost HP/TQ by changing manifolds yet people still buy them and people still continue to produce results because it take time to get the "most" out of any particular setup
10-26-2009, 02:31 PM
#60
Shawn, without a doubt you have more experience with dealing with the issue than most people on this board. With that said would ou agree that given the right combo of parts and tuning that there would be some benefit to running these coils????