06 C6 AI 226's and G6X3 dyno 486/447
02-03-2013, 09:45 AM
#23
Call me crazy but I have had 2 sets of TEA ported 243's and I never dynoed them, always mail order tuning.
Would anyone be interested in seeing a TEA 243 on the same set up? I am going to end up with TFS 225's but I would (personally) like to seee the TEA/AI on the same car, same cam and same dyno..
Just have to sell the AI's...anyone...
Would anyone be interested in seeing a TEA 243 on the same set up? I am going to end up with TFS 225's but I would (personally) like to seee the TEA/AI on the same car, same cam and same dyno..
Just have to sell the AI's...anyone...
02-03-2013, 10:18 AM
#24
Call me crazy but I have had 2 sets of TEA ported 243's and I never dynoed them, always mail order tuning.
Would anyone be interested in seeing a TEA 243 on the same set up? I am going to end up with TFS 225's but I would (personally) like to seee the TEA/AI on the same car, same cam and same dyno..
Just have to sell the AI's...anyone...
Would anyone be interested in seeing a TEA 243 on the same set up? I am going to end up with TFS 225's but I would (personally) like to seee the TEA/AI on the same car, same cam and same dyno..
Just have to sell the AI's...anyone...
02-03-2013, 10:52 AM
#25
Call me crazy but I have had 2 sets of TEA ported 243's and I never dynoed them, always mail order tuning.
Would anyone be interested in seeing a TEA 243 on the same set up? I am going to end up with TFS 225's but I would (personally) like to seee the TEA/AI on the same car, same cam and same dyno..
Just have to sell the AI's...anyone...
Would anyone be interested in seeing a TEA 243 on the same set up? I am going to end up with TFS 225's but I would (personally) like to seee the TEA/AI on the same car, same cam and same dyno..
Just have to sell the AI's...anyone...
02-03-2013, 11:12 AM
#26
I don't think you need any other head. It's the same port volume, same cross sectional area and pretty much the same valve job, why would it pick up over the AI head? The layed over valve angle may help slightly, and the larger valves would help too, but I really don't think you need that.
Fly-cut the pistons, add a point of compression and you've got your 500rwhp.
I've got several combinations like this one brewing and I think we'll be right here with these numbers when the smoke clears.
The reason he picked up from the EPS cam to the LG cam is simple, overlap. When you add overlap you add power. When you've got a great flowing cylinder head with high I/E percentages you can keep throwing overlap at the engine and it will eat it up and spit out more power! This is why my torque max cams are ground the way they are for the cathedral port engines. The exhaust port is so strong and since the exhaust port is actually what pulls the intake charge in via overlap and not the piston itself, the more overlap you give it the more power it makes.
Fly-cut the pistons, add a point of compression and you've got your 500rwhp.
I've got several combinations like this one brewing and I think we'll be right here with these numbers when the smoke clears.
The reason he picked up from the EPS cam to the LG cam is simple, overlap. When you add overlap you add power. When you've got a great flowing cylinder head with high I/E percentages you can keep throwing overlap at the engine and it will eat it up and spit out more power! This is why my torque max cams are ground the way they are for the cathedral port engines. The exhaust port is so strong and since the exhaust port is actually what pulls the intake charge in via overlap and not the piston itself, the more overlap you give it the more power it makes.
02-03-2013, 11:17 AM
#27
I already emailed Mike @ TEA
I would need to sell the AI's to fund it, then find some 243's for sale. If you guys run across a set for sale, shoot me a PM, please.
I would like to see the AI 232 head too but that's too many head changes in my garage....
SO I would go with TEA's 243 with stock valves and same combustion 63-64cc.
02-03-2013, 11:21 AM
#28
I don't think you need any other head. It's the same port volume, same cross sectional area and pretty much the same valve job, why would it pick up over the AI head? The layed over valve angle may help slightly, and the larger valves would help too, but I really don't think you need that.
Fly-cut the pistons, add a point of compression and you've got your 500rwhp.
I've got several combinations like this one brewing and I think we'll be right here with these numbers when the smoke clears.
The reason he picked up from the EPS cam to the LG cam is simple, overlap. When you add overlap you add power. When you've got a great flowing cylinder head with high I/E percentages you can keep throwing overlap at the engine and it will eat it up and spit out more power! This is why my torque max cams are ground the way they are for the cathedral port engines. The exhaust port is so strong and since the exhaust port is actually what pulls the intake charge in via overlap and not the piston itself, the more overlap you give it the more power it makes.
Fly-cut the pistons, add a point of compression and you've got your 500rwhp.
I've got several combinations like this one brewing and I think we'll be right here with these numbers when the smoke clears.
The reason he picked up from the EPS cam to the LG cam is simple, overlap. When you add overlap you add power. When you've got a great flowing cylinder head with high I/E percentages you can keep throwing overlap at the engine and it will eat it up and spit out more power! This is why my torque max cams are ground the way they are for the cathedral port engines. The exhaust port is so strong and since the exhaust port is actually what pulls the intake charge in via overlap and not the piston itself, the more overlap you give it the more power it makes.
From the begining, I wanted to go TFS 225 and G6X3 but I just ended up somehow changing my mind along the way...
The only reason now to do any of this is-
Curiosity
I personally think the AI/TEA head would be very interesting to see but it depends on the practical time to do it and the affordability on my part. That's alot of work and labor and cost for it-
I didn't make this thread to compare EPS to G6 cam, I jst ended up going with what I wanted, the G6X3 and thought to document the results.
Nothing more-
02-03-2013, 12:00 PM
#29
From the begining, I wanted to go TFS 225 and G6X3 but I just ended up somehow changing my mind along the way...
The only reason now to do any of this is-
Curiosity
I personally think the AI/TEA head would be very interesting to see but it depends on the practical time to do it and the affordability on my part. That's alot of work and labor and cost for it-
I didn't make this thread to compare EPS to G6 cam, I jst ended up going with what I wanted, the G6X3 and thought to document the results.
Nothing more-
The only reason now to do any of this is-
Curiosity
I personally think the AI/TEA head would be very interesting to see but it depends on the practical time to do it and the affordability on my part. That's alot of work and labor and cost for it-
I didn't make this thread to compare EPS to G6 cam, I jst ended up going with what I wanted, the G6X3 and thought to document the results.
Nothing more-
I used to always recommend aftermarket casting TFS heads to our customers, but with the initial investment it costs to get into a set of those heads a lot of them turned away and used something else or went somewhere else entirely. After seeing more and more ported stock casting combinations come through our doors make great numbers I realized something. The only time a guy would need an aftermarket casting like a TFS, AFR, Mast etc. is if they need the added deck thickness and added material the aftermarket head has over the stock casting. If you're going to be running large amounts of boost or nitrous/compression then the added material is very nice to have so you can keep the head down on the deck surface.
The only other instance I can see an aftermarket casting being worth the cost over a CNC stock casting, is if the stock casting cannot meet the cross sectional area requirements that a larger aftermarket casting can.
Just my observations on set-ups like this. Nothing more. I wasn't trying to turn it into a cam comparison thread either, just enlightening the guys who were talking out loud and asking in earlier posts why the G6X3 cam with nearly identical duration numbers picked up power over the EPS grind.
Very nice combination you have though!
02-04-2013, 07:44 AM
#30
Don't get me wrong I love to see real world comparisons, I get to see them all day long here at the shop. I've seen what the AI stuff can do, what the TEA stuff can do and what the TFS stuff can do. They are all within 5-10rwhp of one another.
I used to always recommend aftermarket casting TFS heads to our customers, but with the initial investment it costs to get into a set of those heads a lot of them turned away and used something else or went somewhere else entirely. After seeing more and more ported stock casting combinations come through our doors make great numbers I realized something. The only time a guy would need an aftermarket casting like a TFS, AFR, Mast etc. is if they need the added deck thickness and added material the aftermarket head has over the stock casting. If you're going to be running large amounts of boost or nitrous/compression then the added material is very nice to have so you can keep the head down on the deck surface.
The only other instance I can see an aftermarket casting being worth the cost over a CNC stock casting, is if the stock casting cannot meet the cross sectional area requirements that a larger aftermarket casting can.
Just my observations on set-ups like this. Nothing more. I wasn't trying to turn it into a cam comparison thread either, just enlightening the guys who were talking out loud and asking in earlier posts why the G6X3 cam with nearly identical duration numbers picked up power over the EPS grind.
Very nice combination you have though!
I used to always recommend aftermarket casting TFS heads to our customers, but with the initial investment it costs to get into a set of those heads a lot of them turned away and used something else or went somewhere else entirely. After seeing more and more ported stock casting combinations come through our doors make great numbers I realized something. The only time a guy would need an aftermarket casting like a TFS, AFR, Mast etc. is if they need the added deck thickness and added material the aftermarket head has over the stock casting. If you're going to be running large amounts of boost or nitrous/compression then the added material is very nice to have so you can keep the head down on the deck surface.
The only other instance I can see an aftermarket casting being worth the cost over a CNC stock casting, is if the stock casting cannot meet the cross sectional area requirements that a larger aftermarket casting can.
Just my observations on set-ups like this. Nothing more. I wasn't trying to turn it into a cam comparison thread either, just enlightening the guys who were talking out loud and asking in earlier posts why the G6X3 cam with nearly identical duration numbers picked up power over the EPS grind.
Very nice combination you have though!
02-04-2013, 09:35 AM
#31
Staging Lane
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't get me wrong I love to see real world comparisons, I get to see them all day long here at the shop. I've seen what the AI stuff can do, what the TEA stuff can do and what the TFS stuff can do. They are all within 5-10rwhp of one another.
I used to always recommend aftermarket casting TFS heads to our customers, but with the initial investment it costs to get into a set of those heads a lot of them turned away and used something else or went somewhere else entirely. After seeing more and more ported stock casting combinations come through our doors make great numbers I realized something. The only time a guy would need an aftermarket casting like a TFS, AFR, Mast etc. is if they need the added deck thickness and added material the aftermarket head has over the stock casting. If you're going to be running large amounts of boost or nitrous/compression then the added material is very nice to have so you can keep the head down on the deck surface.
The only other instance I can see an aftermarket casting being worth the cost over a CNC stock casting, is if the stock casting cannot meet the cross sectional area requirements that a larger aftermarket casting can.
Just my observations on set-ups like this. Nothing more. I wasn't trying to turn it into a cam comparison thread either, just enlightening the guys who were talking out loud and asking in earlier posts why the G6X3 cam with nearly identical duration numbers picked up power over the EPS grind.
Very nice combination you have though!
I used to always recommend aftermarket casting TFS heads to our customers, but with the initial investment it costs to get into a set of those heads a lot of them turned away and used something else or went somewhere else entirely. After seeing more and more ported stock casting combinations come through our doors make great numbers I realized something. The only time a guy would need an aftermarket casting like a TFS, AFR, Mast etc. is if they need the added deck thickness and added material the aftermarket head has over the stock casting. If you're going to be running large amounts of boost or nitrous/compression then the added material is very nice to have so you can keep the head down on the deck surface.
The only other instance I can see an aftermarket casting being worth the cost over a CNC stock casting, is if the stock casting cannot meet the cross sectional area requirements that a larger aftermarket casting can.
Just my observations on set-ups like this. Nothing more. I wasn't trying to turn it into a cam comparison thread either, just enlightening the guys who were talking out loud and asking in earlier posts why the G6X3 cam with nearly identical duration numbers picked up power over the EPS grind.
Very nice combination you have though!
I'd always thought the trickflow 225's were the secret to the 500+ rwhp and 133-135 traps we see out of those cars...perhaps it's the g6x3 instead...your dyno sheets might prove my theory that it was the heads wrong.
I put free AFR 205 heads on my car and picked up 2-3 mph and 24/10 rwhp/tq. I figured I'd need to put on the Trickflows to get above 500, and the cost is too steep. If it's just a cam change that is more palatable cost wise...
0-60 in 2.6 seconds per my HP Tuners scan.
02-04-2013, 12:19 PM
#32
Interesting...do you have some dyno sheets or build threads on a g6x3 with stock cnc heads with the 500+ rwhp we consistently see with the Trickflow 225's?
I'd always thought the trickflow 225's were the secret to the 500+ rwhp and 133-135 traps we see out of those cars...perhaps it's the g6x3 instead...your dyno sheets might prove my theory that it was the heads wrong.
I put free AFR 205 heads on my car and picked up 2-3 mph and 24/10 rwhp/tq. I figured I'd need to put on the Trickflows to get above 500, and the cost is too steep. If it's just a cam change that is more palatable cost wise...
http://youtu.be/MyufsJIqa9I
0-60 in 2.6 seconds per my HP Tuners scan.
I'd always thought the trickflow 225's were the secret to the 500+ rwhp and 133-135 traps we see out of those cars...perhaps it's the g6x3 instead...your dyno sheets might prove my theory that it was the heads wrong.
I put free AFR 205 heads on my car and picked up 2-3 mph and 24/10 rwhp/tq. I figured I'd need to put on the Trickflows to get above 500, and the cost is too steep. If it's just a cam change that is more palatable cost wise...
http://youtu.be/MyufsJIqa9I
0-60 in 2.6 seconds per my HP Tuners scan.
The last 2 parts of your post I don't understand though. I don't think I ever said that his very nice numbers came from just the cam? You have to have great cylinder heads to make great power N/A, that's something you just can't get around.
BTW your car runs very well!!!
02-04-2013, 12:24 PM
#33
Staging Lane
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've never used the G6X3, but just looking at the events and amount of overlap versus the EPS cam it's clear the G6X3 will make more power.
The last 2 parts of your post I don't understand though. I don't think I ever said that his very nice numbers came from just the cam? You have to have great cylinder heads to make great power N/A, that's something you just can't get around.
The last 2 parts of your post I don't understand though. I don't think I ever said that his very nice numbers came from just the cam? You have to have great cylinder heads to make great power N/A, that's something you just can't get around.
Since I already have afr205's I'm thus inferring that perhaps the g6x3 was the cause of the great power, not the trickflows. So I was asking to see any dyno sheets over 500.
I'd you don't have any, no worries.
02-04-2013, 01:33 PM
#34
I took your post to say that you don't need the trickflow 225's to make 500+ rwhp.
Since I already have afr205's I'm thus inferring that perhaps the g6x3 was the cause of the great power, not the trickflows. So I was asking to see any dyno sheets over 500.
I'd you don't have any, no worries.
Since I already have afr205's I'm thus inferring that perhaps the g6x3 was the cause of the great power, not the trickflows. So I was asking to see any dyno sheets over 500.
I'd you don't have any, no worries.
That doesn't mean you can make 500rwhp with a 224/224 cam though and that just because the cylinder heads are bad *** they will automatically make 500rwhp. It takes a good combination to do it.
Will the larger runner make more peak power over your 205's, from what I've seen yes it will. Will it help you make even more power than you do now, yes it will.
I think any cam with duration and LSA numbers like the G6X3 has (Polluter, MS4, Vindicator, T-rex, etc. etc.) with this exact set-up will make the same numbers or possibly even better as the cams I have mentioned are slightly larger than the G6X3.
Here is one that I have from a customer in Illinois though:
He used our V.1 Polluter cam and As Cast TFS 220's that Brian Tooley hand ported along with a FAST 102 LSXRt(truck version). This car has 11.9:1 compression also and is a LS1 not a LS2.
Here is a LS2 we did the other day with TFS 225 heads, a FAST92 and a 235/243 .621"/.624" 113+4 cam. This is a LQ4 bottom end with 10.75:1 compression:
I think he's getting a little valve float at the end of the pull and could use some custom 11/32" .100-110" wall push rods or step up to a 3/8" .080" wall push rod.
So there are some dyno graph comparisons of similar combinations with similar numbers. As I said I don't think the heads will make or break the combination if the combination is a good one. The AI, TEA, AFR and TFS heads are all very comparable and are well within the same numbers. I'm just pointing out it takes compression, overlap, cross sectional area and good port velocity to make big power on these 3.622" stroke set-ups. You and Jayplay have an advantage with the 4.0" bore though as it really helps when using a larger intake valve to keep the intake valve un-shrouded for maximum flow potential and power potential.
Sorry for hi-jacking your thread Jayplay.
Last edited by Sales@Tick; 02-04-2013 at 01:45 PM.
02-04-2013, 01:47 PM
#35
Staging Lane
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
^^^ Thanks Martin for the great information.
I've been wondering if it's my cam or my heads holding me back. Here's a dyno sheet of all my mods overlaid. I have 4.10 gears so my dyno numbers appear a little low, but my MPH doesn't lie and my setup, at 128 mph, is clearly 5 mph+ slower than the guys with the G6x3 and TF 225's.
Based on JayplaySS2's results, I think perhaps it's my cam holding me back, not my AFR 205 heads..or perhaps a lithe of both.
JayplaySS2 sorry to hijack your thread brother.
I've been wondering if it's my cam or my heads holding me back. Here's a dyno sheet of all my mods overlaid. I have 4.10 gears so my dyno numbers appear a little low, but my MPH doesn't lie and my setup, at 128 mph, is clearly 5 mph+ slower than the guys with the G6x3 and TF 225's.
Based on JayplaySS2's results, I think perhaps it's my cam holding me back, not my AFR 205 heads..or perhaps a lithe of both.
JayplaySS2 sorry to hijack your thread brother.
02-04-2013, 02:38 PM
#36
I think you could benefit from a larger cylinder head for sure. Especially with the 4.0" bore, in your specific case the 225cc TEA TFS heads would be the cat's meow.
I just didn't want guys to read this thread and think they have to have a TFS 225 to make big power.
I just didn't want guys to read this thread and think they have to have a TFS 225 to make big power.
02-04-2013, 02:40 PM
#37
Staging Lane
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You are a wise vendor to good advice based on your experience in articulate posts.
02-04-2013, 03:13 PM
#39
Staging Lane
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's perfect. Mod party at my house...let's install the G6 over an evening of beers and pizza.
